Yzerman, Messier, Sakic, what made them such great leaders?

The Panther

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Okay? So the narrative latched onto one guy and not the other, and it's basically always the guy who is the superior player. I don't know that it tells you much about real leadership.
I couldn't care less about media narrative. If you'd asked the Oilers' players in 1990 who the team leader was, every single player would have said 'Mark Messier'. Other veterans would have been mentioned, of course, but Glenn Anderson and Charlie Huddy would not have been mentioned 1/5 as much as Messier. I am talking about players, not media, which, I concur, are narrative-driven and mostly clueless.
 

blood gin

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What made Yzerman a great leader? Scotty Bowman showing up and the left wing lock, and Detroit finally getting the sound defensive play and goaltending they needed to win a Cup. He was always a great player, but not sure there was anything special about his leadership

Same with Sakic. Great player. Clutch player who scored a lot of playoff goals. But what kind of leader was he before Roy backstopped those teams to two Cups?

Messier had his moment for the Rangers in 1994. And he did lead a Gretzky less Oilers to the 1990 Cup. Basically he's the only guy in the group where you can say his leadership actually made some kind of difference
 

The Panther

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The teams behind them.
Well, no, because Sakic and Yzerman were both named captains when their teams had just finished last overall. Messier also took a post-Gretzky, post-Coffey, no-Fuhr gang to the promised land when it looked, in late October 1989, like they were doomed.
 

SealsFan

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This comes under "intangibles", but Messier just had the look on his face that said to his teammates, "I'm going into battle and giving 100% tonight and I expect nothing less from each and every one of you..."
 

Stephen

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Well, no, because Sakic and Yzerman were both named captains when their teams had just finished last overall. Messier also took a post-Gretzky, post-Coffey, no-Fuhr gang to the promised land when it looked, in late October 1989, like they were doomed.

Sakic and Yzerman's personal leadership didn't cause the following things to happen:

1) Quebec Nordiques finishing last 3 years in a row and drafting Sundin, Nolan and Lindros.

2) Eric Lindros forcing a trade out of Quebec, bringing the Nordiques their franchise building bounty.

3) Patrick Roy demanding to be traded out of Montreal.

4) Nordiques conveniently moving from Quebec to Denver.

5) Red Wings drafting Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Fedorov in 1989, setting the table for 20 years of success.

6) Bringing in numerous all-stars in their cup quest.
 

GMR

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What made Yzerman a great leader? Scotty Bowman showing up and the left wing lock, and Detroit finally getting the sound defensive play and goaltending they needed to win a Cup. He was always a great player, but not sure there was anything special about his leadership

Same with Sakic. Great player. Clutch player who scored a lot of playoff goals. But what kind of leader was he before Roy backstopped those teams to two Cups?

Messier had his moment for the Rangers in 1994. And he did lead a Gretzky less Oilers to the 1990 Cup. Basically he's the only guy in the group where you can say his leadership actually made some kind of difference
What moment? Scoring a few soft goals and an empty netter against New Jersey in that game 6? Messier was great in those playoffs, but so were Leetch and Richter. They had a terrific team. The 1990 Oilers were stacked as well. There's no way you can measure his leadership making a difference while saying that Yzerman and Sakic didn't make the same difference leadership wise in their Cups runs. I don't think Detroit goes far without Yzerman's leadership in 2002 in that first round. Sakic stepped it up in 2001 without Forsberg.
 
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GMR

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Sakic and Yzerman's personal leadership didn't cause the following things to happen:

1) Quebec Nordiques finishing last 3 years in a row and drafting Sundin, Nolan and Lindros.

2) Eric Lindros forcing a trade out of Quebec, bringing the Nordiques their franchise building bounty.

3) Patrick Roy demanding to be traded out of Montreal.

4) Nordiques conveniently moving from Quebec to Denver.

5) Red Wings drafting Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Fedorov in 1989, setting the table for 20 years of success.

6) Bringing in numerous all-stars in their cup quest.
How many mediocre teams did Mark Messier lead to a Stanley Cup? None to my memory. There's no denying that Sakic and Yzerman played for teams with lots of talent but so did Messier.
 

Stephen

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How many mediocre teams did Mark Messier lead to a Stanley Cup? None to my memory. There's no denying that Sakic and Yzerman played for teams with lots of talent but so did Messier.

Obviously. I'm just too lazy to type out all the amazing team building that Edmonton/New York put behind him.
 

GMR

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Obviously. I'm just too lazy to type out all the amazing team building that Edmonton/New York put behind him.
In New York's case, it wasn't team building as much as recruiting old time Oilers players to make one last Cup run. After 1994, that franchise kept making one dumb move after another. Even Messier's iconic leadership did not help the Rangers in their demise through the late 90's.
 

Stephen

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In New York's case, it wasn't team building as much as recruiting old time Oilers players to make one last Cup run. After 1994, that franchise kept making one dumb move after another. Even Messier's iconic leadership did not help the Rangers in their demise through the late 90's.

The 1994 Rangers were kind of a Frankenstein amalgam of the Oilers dynasty (which was mostly dispersed to the Rangers, Kings and Leafs of that era) and a lot of Chicago Blackhawks foot soldiers coming over with Mike Keenan.
 
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tarheelhockey

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The Bruins were one of the top teams in the NHL during much of Bourque's tenure, esp. 1979 to 1984 and 1987 to 1993. What were they turning around from?

Granted they had a window of contention, but they were never a Detroit or Colorado level powerhouse. The window came and went, with Bourque doing everything humanly possible in a losing effort.

After that, for a solid 5-6 years the storyline was “don’t waste Bourque”. THAT was what they never turned around from. By 1996 it was very obvious that the franchise was entering a dark era, and yet it took years before they finally pulled the trigger on a trade.

I never heard a single person say anything about Bourque suddenly being a "leader" because he won the Cup in his last game. Did you? I also never heard a single person ask "what's the matter with this guy?" during Bourque's time in Boston. More like the complete opposite.

I think you’re maybe misreading my point.

In the 1980/90s/early-00s there were three top-50 all time players who were phenomenal captains for about a zillion games with one franchise, and (unlike Mario) were universally respected.

Two of those three automatically get talked about in conversations like this. Why Yzerman and Sakic? Because they spent the better part of a decade being feted in the media for successfully leading their teams out of a dark era and being the centerpieces of multiple championships. Then on the fringes of the conversation it’s like, “Oh yeah, Bourque was good too... too bad he had to leave Boston to win a Cup.” Switch his circumstances with one of the other guys and we absolutely don’t get halfway through a thread before his name comes up, but that’s what narrative/lore is worth in this game’s culture.

Now... imagine a world where Bourque goes to Colorado and that team blows it repeatedly until he finally retires. IMO, there’s absolutely no way people overlook that. Even today, we still see the odd question about what went wrong for Marcel Dionne — and there’s no reason he should have to answer for anything given the context of his career. By all appearances, Joe Thornton’s next in line to get dragged for failing to be in the right place at the right time. It may not have been THAT bad for Bourque, who was more like a Dan Marino type figure, but he would absolutely have been reduced to a trivia question in a lot of minds. That single highlight of his Cup lift did immeasurable amounts of good.

Of course he spoke English. He was out of the Vancouver area and then played in the WHL. It's not like was running around Quebec City speaking Croatian...

I was just joking about him being media shy (I recall him being called Quoteless Joe) but it seems he actually was running around speaking Croatian at one point:

I am aware that it was a joke, but I recall that Sakic's first language (before he went to school) was Croatian.

I had no idea.
 
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Jim MacDonald

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I think what made them all great leaders is they demanded their teammates raise their level of play by example, and when necessary, the occasional speech.

Burnaby Joe playing through the 2001 playoffs with a shoulder injury that I've heard/read would have kept him sidelined had it occurred during the regular season. If the locker room is seeing the Captain do that....you are going to feed off that emotionally and try and raise your level of play.

Yzerman, in particular the Vancouver series in 2002, talks to the team after dropping the first two in Detroit, they win four straight. The best forward in the series. Repeat last sentence with Burnaby Joe above.

Messier-"We will win Game 6" in 1994. Leetch talked about how hearing that lifted the whole team to simply believe they could win.
 

Canucks1096

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Both Sakic and Yzerman had a reputation in the early 90s of a bad leader. They both couldn't lead their team to much playoff success in the early 90s. Yzerman was almost traded for Yashin, Sakic was offered to the Canucks for Linden but Quinn decline that trade. Not sure if this is true, it was on the Van radio, there is a reason why Sundin got traded for Clark so he can help Sakic with the Leadership.

So Col got the final pieces with Lemieux Roy Keane Ozolinsh and Wings got the final pieces likes Shanahan Murphy Larionov. Wings and Col Started to win cups, so all sudden Sakic and Yzerman went from a bad captain to a good captain like that. Did that really happened? No, it's because leadership doesn't mean anything if you don't have a stacked team.

Look at Toews, people always say his leadership/intangibles will the Hawks to the cups. Now he is not a good team, his secret intangibles doesn't work anymore.
 
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The Panther

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Sakic and Yzerman's personal leadership didn't cause the following things to happen:

1) Quebec Nordiques finishing last 3 years in a row and drafting Sundin, Nolan and Lindros.

2) Eric Lindros forcing a trade out of Quebec, bringing the Nordiques their franchise building bounty.

3) Patrick Roy demanding to be traded out of Montreal.

4) Nordiques conveniently moving from Quebec to Denver.

5) Red Wings drafting Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Fedorov in 1989, setting the table for 20 years of success.

6) Bringing in numerous all-stars in their cup quest.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the point you are making.

The point I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that the three players in question were gifted great teams, and that's why they were great leaders (which is what another poster argued).
 

The Panther

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How many mediocre teams did Mark Messier lead to a Stanley Cup?
I would say the 1989-90 Oilers are close. In '89 they were eliminated in the first round, Glenn Anderson looked completely washed up, they had no offensive Dman to speak of, and they were only five or six games over .500.

Then, to start the next season, their top scoring center -- Jimmy Carson -- quit the team four games in. The top center after Messier was now Mark Lamb. They got off to a terrible start in 1989-90, and it looked like they might struggle to make the playoffs.

Sure, they still had a small core of great veterans, but looking at that team at center and on defense, they did not look at all like a Cup contender. They also had a playoff starting goalie with no experience.

The following season, the team struggled to a .500 record. They were something like .600 with Messier in the lineup, and .350 without him.
 

Stephen

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I'm sorry but I don't understand the point you are making.

The point I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that the three players in question were gifted great teams, and that's why they were great leaders (which is what another poster argued).

The Avalanche and Red Wings were great teams because they had great rosters not because of the individual leadership of a select couple of individuals.
 

GMR

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I would say the 1989-90 Oilers are close. In '89 they were eliminated in the first round, Glenn Anderson looked completely washed up, they had no offensive Dman to speak of, and they were only five or six games over .500.

Then, to start the next season, their top scoring center -- Jimmy Carson -- quit the team four games in. The top center after Messier was now Mark Lamb. They got off to a terrible start in 1989-90, and it looked like they might struggle to make the playoffs.

Sure, they still had a small core of great veterans, but looking at that team at center and on defense, they did not look at all like a Cup contender. They also had a playoff starting goalie with no experience.

The following season, the team struggled to a .500 record. They were something like .600 with Messier in the lineup, and .350 without him.
They were certainly the least imposing of the Oilers Cup teams and one of the weakest Cup winners ever. However, they were a good team. They finished 5th in the standings and scored over 300 goals. Montreal wasn't as strong that year as the season before. Pittsburgh was a bad team but would become great the following season. Boston and Calgary were good but Calgary lost in the first round.

Yes, the Oilers were better with Messier in the lineup than without him. They should be. He was by far their best player. However, it wasn't just Messier taking a bunch of scrubs to the Cup. A lot of players stepped up that year in the playoffs, most notably Ranford. Can we say for certain that they don't win the Cup that season with a peak Yzerman or Sakic instead of Messier? And if so, would that be because of leadership or because he was a better player?

The Avalanche and Red Wings were great teams because they had great rosters not because of the individual leadership of a select couple of individuals.
How many teams were great because of individual leadership of a select group of individuals, rather than the rosters? I can't think of any. Leadership without a talented roster can only take a team so far.
 

Supreme King

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When it comes to Messier, he could do it all. Lead by example, give a speech and be tremendously emotional.

When you see a player play unbelievably physical and sacrifice themself, no matter if he wore then”C” or not, it has an impact.

By the time Messier was captain, he had done it all, played any style and was a winner. That’s a Captain!!!
 

MadLuke

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I think about Messier is all win play but also personality, I remember Damphousse saying he rapidly understood why the Canadian did loose to the Rangers in the playoff after spending a little time in the 1996 team Canada locker room with Messier and that was a team filled with great players and/or captains (Coffey, Gretzky, Sakic, Linden, Yzerman, Stevens).

For Yzerman/Sakic my feeling is how much they lead by example, general attitude on and off the ice, committeemen to win, to do what it take to have good season past 36/37.

I wonder is there any winningless guy with a legendary aura of being great leaders ?

Would a couple of cup did it for an Alfredsson ? Sedin's ? Sundin ?

Any that should ?

If no one come up, the sentiment do seem likely, either great leadership always bring a cup or it is quite build on correlation more than causation.
 

JianYang

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Yzerman is the perfect example of one player getting too much credit when things go well, and too much blame when things were tough.

The red wings almost traded him in the mid 90s, as he became the poster boy for Detroit being unable to break through. I guess he magically became a great leader after that on his way to 3 cups.
 
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VanIslander

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I object to the op.

I haven't noticed the "presence" of leadership of Sakic like I have of Messier and Yzerman. I have watched hockey since the 1970's and in terms of THE "IT" FACTOR, a certain gravitas, Messier and Yzerman have it. Clarke, Potvin, Gretzky, Bourque, Stevens, Peca too.

Aside: In today's game, eh, I wonder if BPA in the plastic that touches food these days is partly responsible for the lack of exceptional leaders. Or maybe there's a cultural reason...
 
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