Yzerman Has Some MAJOR Work To Do

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He's great but at this point is still a 15 goal winger who has upside, but hard to say if he'll reach it. I guess the best title would be "excellent supporting cast", but 6m/year? Don't think he'll get that.
 

Flat Ronnie

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This years UFA class for defenseman is god awful, not sure why you guys would want to clear cap and lose assets to sign these guys. Shattenkirk who will want near the 7m range? Azlner is the only decent guy hitting the market but will likely be resigned or go into an isane bidding war, then what? Strait? Oduya? Wideman? Kulikov? Campbell? Jeez no thanks, I'd rather ride Garrison for next year and get his contract off the books for nothing than to move him with an asset to get stuck with another bad contract.

Then we need to trade someone of value for a D. That's the only other option.

If we go into next year with the current d corps it will simply not be enough. Stralman, Garrison and Coburn will be another year older and slower.

This D is not good enough to win a cup and that is where we 'supposedly' have our sights set.
 

HoseEmDown

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The defense has been much improved since Stralman was dropped to the 2nd pair. It's ranked higher than the offense right now. It's not very good at generating offense outside of Hedman. I think there's a possibility we stand pat with what we have and add Koekkoek as the 7th and ease him into games in the 11/7 role or spell Garrison, Coburn, Sustr or Dotchin if they struggle, he could help with some offense. Which is why I don't know if Yzerman will move a Palat or Johnson for defense if he doesn't find the right deal.

We will have enough cap room to keep Garrison next year and Coburn the year after. With Koekkoek here next year and Masin and Hajek on the horizon I think the left might be left alone and let the youngsters take the veterans spot as there deals run out. On the right if Dotchin is for real, still not sure, we can do much worse than Sustr on the bottom pair so no need to change anything there and we have Blujus, Spencer and Cernak on the way. It's not what anyone wants to hear but we need more cap for the forwards unless a young top 4 like Dumba becomes available.
 

Sky04

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Agreed, unless a perfected suited defeseman comes along I'd rather stand pat then sign an aging vet to a multi year deal just to be a 1 or 2 year stop gap and end up having to move their contract out.
 

Flat Ronnie

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Agreed, unless a perfected suited defeseman comes along I'd rather stand pat then sign an aging vet to a multi year deal just to be a 1 or 2 year stop gap and end up having to move their contract out.

If this is the case then we should lower the teams expectation from cup contender to playoff team. Cause at the end of the day, the D is just not good enough.


We are working with 1x certainty and 1x uncertainty:

Certainty - Garrison, Coburn and Stalman will be one year older and slower.

Uncertainty - Koekkoek and Dotchin will be able to make up the gap.
 

Sky04

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If this is the case then we should lower the teams expectation from cup contender to playoff team. Cause at the end of the day, the D is just not good enough.


We are working with 1x certainty and 1x uncertainty:

Certainty - Garrison, Coburn and Stalman will be one year older and slower.

Uncertainty - Koekkoek and Dotchin will be able to make up the gap.

Well at the end of the day I don't think our:

Forwards are good enough

Coaching is good enough

and Goaltending is good enough

so Defense fits right in.

Not sure how adding a #3/4 all of a sudden fixes our holes in those other departments, adding D means losing forward depth which we already gutted this year and hoping we get value from one of the AHLers next year, goaltending is a huge question mark next year and Cooper is Cooper. So yeah it's not like we're in a rush to fix that defense especially if it's going to be a poor use of future cap.

Also it's not a "certainty", sure they'll be older but all 3 could easily benefit from a longer summer.
 
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Flat Ronnie

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Well at the end of the day I don't think our:

Forwards are good enough

Coaching is good enough

and Goaltending is good enough

so Defense fits right in.

Not sure how adding a #3/4 all of a sudden fixes our holes in those other departments, adding D means losing forward depth which we already gutted this year and hoping we get value from one of the AHLers next year, goaltending is a huge question mark next year and Cooper is Cooper. So yeah it's not like we're in a rush to fix that defense especially if it's going to be a poor use of future cap.

Also it's not a "certainty", sure they'll be older but all 3 could easily benefit from a longer summer.

I think our forwards are good enough with Stamkos back. Stamkos, Drouin, Kucherov and one of Johnson/Palat should be a good enough forward core for a cup.

Also, I would argue that if we pulled the trigger on a legit top 4 RHD like Faulk (just an example) our defense would be good enough as well. Especially with the 3 vets slotting down a spot.

Hedman - Faulk (again, just an example)
Coburn - Stralman
Garrison - Dotchin

I agree with you on goalie and coach. Both question marks (although I think Vasy has all the talent in the world and just needs time and refining).
 

Sky04

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Well yes that goes back to finding a perfectly suited defenseman, not just signing UFA's for marginal improvement. Faulk is an offensive RHD signed to a great contract, as great a fit as he would be I don't think he was a realistic target. Edmonton would surely offer RNH+ which means we'd have to start with Johnson at least, then we just end up circling back to lack of center depth.

For every Stralman and Boyle we get a Carle and Callahan from Free Angency, both of the latter have hindered Yzerman's ability to make a necessary move at different points.
 
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Flat Ronnie

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Well yes that goes back to finding a perfectly suited defenseman, not just signing UFA's for marginal improvement. Faulk is an offensive RHD signed to a great contract, as great a fit as he would be I don't think he was a realistic target. Edmonton would surely offer RNH+ which means we'd have to start with Johnson at least, then we just end up circling back to lack of center depth.

Stamkos' injury has really destroyed our season and shows his true importance to the team. If you think, we probably missed out on 30ish goals from him this year. You put an additional 30 goals on the board for us (not to mention any additional offense he generates for other players) we would be firmly in a playoff position right now and Ben would most likely be leading the charge to another run.

Our defense, however, would still be the huge question mark going into the playoffs.
 

Rschmitz

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I'm expecting a major overhaul on our bottom 6. 22nd in the league on the PK and a lack of scoring, last time that happened Yzerman blew it up and it's not acceptable. There are a lot of good bottom 6 forwards expected to hit free agency too.

That's an easy task compared to accumulating the number of game breaking forwards we have.
 

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I'm expecting a major overhaul on our bottom 6. 22nd in the league on the PK and a lack of scoring, last time that happened Yzerman blew it up and it's not acceptable. There are a lot of good bottom 6 forwards expected to hit free agency too.

That's an easy task compared to accumulating the number of game breaking forwards we have.

There are very few bottom-6ers on the team this year that I want to see back.
 

HoseEmDown

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I see us bringing 3-4 new guys into the bottom 6 not including Erne. Complete makeover

Who? Cause I can't see us bringing in 4 guys outside the system. Say we do bring in 4, and not including Erne like you say, what do we do with Callahan, Paquette and Namestnikov? We need 1 guy because Erne will be there from day 1, Callahan hopefully is healthy so that's an improvement of what we have already.

Erne - Namestnikov - Callahan
Paquette - Boyle.- Brown

That's what I see with Joseph, Stephens and Cirelli getting a look if Brown sucks again next year.
 

Rschmitz

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Who? Cause I can't see us bringing in 4 guys outside the system. Say we do bring in 4, and not including Erne like you say, what do we do with Callahan, Paquette and Namestnikov? We need 1 guy because Erne will be there from day 1, Callahan hopefully is healthy so that's an improvement of what we have already.

Erne - Namestnikov - Callahan
Paquette - Boyle.- Brown

That's what I see with Joseph, Stephens and Cirelli getting a look if Brown sucks again next year.

I think Paquette and Brown are dealt. That's three. Four is dependent on who LV selects and if we deal a top 6 forward for D.

I absolutely can see Yzerman bringing in 4 new guys. He's done it before
 

HoseEmDown

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I think Paquette and Brown are dealt. That's three. Four is dependent on who LV selects and if we deal a top 6 forward for D.

I absolutely can see Yzerman bringing in 4 new guys. He's done it before

When did he ever sign 4 new forwards? Not including a bunch of guys you know are meant for the AHL only?

Paquette won't be dealt, he's a Cooper favorite. He's also cheap and does alright when not used too much. Brown I can see gone but his value is trash right now on a decent contract, most teams can call up a kid making half his salary to put up 5 points, so we won't get anything out of it might as well keep him for depth. Hopefully Vegas takes Killorn, saves us some cap and Point is better in the top 6, we have a ready replacement internally so no need to bring in from the outside. If they take Namestnikov, Boyle could be the 3C for a bit till a prospect is ready. I don't see more than 2 at most.
 

Rschmitz

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When did he ever sign 4 new forwards? Not including a bunch of guys you know are meant for the AHL only?

Paquette won't be dealt, he's a Cooper favorite. He's also cheap and does alright when not used too much. Brown I can see gone but his value is trash right now on a decent contract, most teams can call up a kid making half his salary to put up 5 points, so we won't get anything out of it might as well keep him for depth. Hopefully Vegas takes Killorn, saves us some cap and Point is better in the top 6, we have a ready replacement internally so no need to bring in from the outside. If they take Namestnikov, Boyle could be the 3C for a bit till a prospect is ready. I don't see more than 2 at most.

Umm. Between the 2014 trade deadline and the start of the 2015 season, we had a completely new bottom 6.

You are on a small island if you think they expose Killorn and not Namestnikov. I still think they potentially deal Killorn, but don't expose him.

Brown hardly makes anything. He could easily be a throw in in a bigger trade.

Paquette has been trending downward after his first season. He's cheap, but doesn't bring much else of what you want to see from a bottom 6 center.

With the lack of scoring depth and a miserable PK, you can pretty much guarantee the lower lines are going to get a hatchet job. Whether that means bringing in someone from within the organization or outside, Yzerman has done it before.

I think we can both agree that changes are incoming, although we disagree with the size and scope.
 

HoseEmDown

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Umm. Between the 2014 trade deadline and the start of the 2015 season, we had a completely new bottom 6.

You are on a small island if you think they expose Killorn and not Namestnikov. I still think they potentially deal Killorn, but don't expose him.

Brown hardly makes anything. He could easily be a throw in in a bigger trade.

Paquette has been trending downward after his first season. He's cheap, but doesn't bring much else of what you want to see from a bottom 6 center.

With the lack of scoring depth and a miserable PK, you can pretty much guarantee the lower lines are going to get a hatchet job. Whether that means bringing in someone from within the organization or outside, Yzerman has done it before.

I think we can both agree that changes are incoming, although we disagree with the size and scope.

I don't mean to get into a pissing match but we didn't go out and get a completely new bottom 6. We traded Thompson and Crombeen and replaced with Boyle and Morrow, the rest were kids from the system. Drouin, Connolly, Namestnikov and Paquette.

What's the point in keeping Killorn at 4.5 when we've already seen his peak? He's not going to become a 50+ player overnight. With how bad Namestnikov has played according to everyone he's only 6 points behind Killorn and gets more than 3 minutes a game less than Killorn. Killorns best season is only 6 points better than Namestnikov while getting much more top 6 opportunities. If we want to get the most out of Point he should be in the top 6, if he is Killorn will be on the 3rd line where he will be overpaid, Namestnikov will be paid correctly.

Brown doesn't make a lot but 1.25 for a 4th liner who has 5 points is a lot, he has little value. Paquette has some value but more to us than we'd get back in a trade. With our limited cap to get some game changing 4th liners, Clutterbuck or Martin, they cost 2.5 and up which we can't afford.

With Callahan coming back and hopefully healthy, he should add some 3rd line scoring. Erne getting a full year should help too. Callahan will help the PK as well. If we bring back Boyle he is a good PKer. With the depth we've built with our prospect pool lately I see the changes being internal. Brown could be waived like Condra, more than likely claimed though, and some Crunch kids brought up for some energy. Again I don't see us shopping in the free agent market for much.
 

Rschmitz

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I don't mean to get into a pissing match but we didn't go out and get a completely new bottom 6. We traded Thompson and Crombeen and replaced with Boyle and Morrow, the rest were kids from the system. Drouin, Connolly, Namestnikov and Paquette.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5,...6. Six new guys. I don't understand, do they not count as being brought onto the team because they were from the minors? I see you've sneakily tacked on "from the system" to differentiate between the two and I missed that the first time. That's exactly how you create an argument, or a pissing match, out of nothing.

What's the point in keeping Killorn at 4.5 when we've already seen his peak? He's not going to become a 50+ player overnight. With how bad Namestnikov has played according to everyone he's only 6 points behind Killorn and gets more than 3 minutes a game less than Killorn. Killorns best season is only 6 points better than Namestnikov while getting much more top 6 opportunities. If we want to get the most out of Point he should be in the top 6, if he is Killorn will be on the 3rd line where he will be overpaid, Namestnikov will be paid correctly.

We all know what Killorn is, so you should know better than to water him down to just his stats. That's an argument other teams fans make, not us.

With that said, I agree with you that he'd be playing below his pay grade if he's on the third line, so not the best idea. The reason we don't expose him is because I think we deal one of our other scoring liners sometime before next season. He also has the better trade value if Yzerman decides to go that route.

The greatest evidence of all that he's protected however is the contract he signed. Contrary to a popular belief that hasn't gone away, Yzerman does not give him that term and movement clause without him being factored into the long term plans. That's a huge gamble that LV selects him if you aren't planning on keeping him around.

Brown doesn't make a lot but 1.25 for a 4th liner who has 5 points is a lot, he has little value. Paquette has some value but more to us than we'd get back in a trade. With our limited cap to get some game changing 4th liners, Clutterbuck or Martin, they cost 2.5 and up which we can't afford.

He's got the type of cap hit that you see from players who are thrown into trades. Like most bottom 6 forwards, he doesn't have a lot of value, but he also wouldn't be too difficult to move.

With Callahan coming back and hopefully healthy, he should add some 3rd line scoring. Erne getting a full year should help too. Callahan will help the PK as well. If we bring back Boyle he is a good PKer. With the depth we've built with our prospect pool lately I see the changes being internal. Brown could be waived like Condra, more than likely claimed though, and some Crunch kids brought up for some energy. Again I don't see us shopping in the free agent market for much.

Unlike the Summer of 2014, we have nothing in the cupboard. Maybe Peca, but doubtful. Contributors like Cirelli, Stephens, Yan, and Joseph are at least 1-2 years away. Now's a great time to sign some free agents on 1 or 2 year contracts. I think Stalberg would be the perfect fit, just to throw a name out there.

I still am unsure if he can come over, but obviously Gusev is another potential option.
 

HoseEmDown

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1, 2, 3, 4, 5,...6. Six new guys. I don't understand, do they not count as being brought onto the team because they were from the minors? I see you've sneakily tacked on "from the system" to differentiate between the two and I missed that the first time. That's exactly how you create an argument, or a pissing match, out of nothing.



We all know what Killorn is, so you should know better than to water him down to just his stats. That's an argument other teams fans make, not us.

With that said, I agree with you that he'd be playing below his pay grade if he's on the third line, so not the best idea. The reason we don't expose him is because I think we deal one of our other scoring liners sometime before next season. He also has the better trade value if Yzerman decides to go that route.

The greatest evidence of all that he's protected however is the contract he signed. Contrary to a popular belief that hasn't gone away, Yzerman does not give him that term and movement clause without him being factored into the long term plans. That's a huge gamble that LV selects him if you aren't planning on keeping him around.



He's got the type of cap hit that you see from players who are thrown into trades. Like most bottom 6 forwards, he doesn't have a lot of value, but he also wouldn't be too difficult to move.



Unlike the Summer of 2014, we have nothing in the cupboard. Maybe Peca, but doubtful. Contributors like Cirelli, Stephens, Yan, and Joseph are at least 1-2 years away. Now's a great time to sign some free agents on 1 or 2 year contracts. I think Stalberg would be the perfect fit, just to throw a name out there.

I still am unsure if he can come over, but obviously Gusev is another potential option.

How did I sneak in the system on there? I mentioned from the first response of your 4 new player comment that I mentioned from outside the system. I could see 4 new guys coming in with 3 of them being in the system, you just missed that part apparently. I don't see how Peca, Richard, Gourde, or any of the kids coming up next year can be much worse than 5 points in 51 game Brown? The other 4th liner has been Dumont who has 2 in 23, so we can get similar production from just about anybody we put on the 4th line. With Callahan and Erne there's just no room or need for 4 new players.

Killorn hasn't done much of the other stuff that makes him good since the start of the year. He's took a step back in all facets just like Palat so I'm ready for 1 of them to go. Depending on what Palat asks for I'd keep him because I think he can rebound better, has higher upside, is all around better and now is the time to move Killorn before the NTC kicks in. Yzerman has shown that if you don't live up to your contract he'll trade you or buy you out. With the way Killorn looks it won't be long before Yzerman gets fed up with him and moves him along.

Point came in here this year when not many expected it and has done well for himself. A guy like Stephens who's more filled out and will be asked to do a lot less should be able to handle a 4th line role. Obviously it might impact their development and they become a Tom Wilson and not a Tomas Hertl but they can help the team. Stalberg would be an upgrade on Brown but he'll want more money than what Brown gets. If we move both Condra and Brown to free up some money I can see a Stalberg and a play for Boyle.
 

Rschmitz

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I think we are close to agreement on everything except for exposing Killorn. I also feel that we will bring in one more guy than you do.

Considering how Yzerman likes to take his time with youngsters, I don't see anyone making the team, at least I doubt he anticipates a guy like Stephens making the team out of camp. I doubt he prepares the lineup with that in mind anyways.

Team needs to add ~20 goals and go from bottom third to top third in the league on the PK. For team need, I'd put that right up there with getting a scoring line forward who can win faceoffs, and improving the D.
 

Werewolf

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I'd like a top line PF (Wheeler / Scheifele type) to play with Stamkos & Drouin (LTIR the remainder of Callahan's contract) and Killorn to play on third line with Point and Gusev. DO NOT touch the Triplets for an entire season. Move Garrison to the right side where he played most of his career and bring up Koekkokoek - this is our third pairing. Bring in a #4 RHD PMD to play with Coburn on second pairing. Dotchin back to the AHL and Hedman gets Stralman back. Get rid of Brown and have Stephens / Erne / Vladdy play on the fourth line. Paquette serves popcorn with Dumont. Vasi mans the net for an entire season and dominates all the way to the cup.

Is a top line PF and #3 RHD PMD too much to ask? **** the cap ... make it so Yzergod.
 
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I'd like a top line PF (Wheeler / Scheifele type) to play with Stamkos & Drouin (LTIR the remainder of Callahan's contract) and Killorn to play on third line with Point and Gusev. DO NOT touch the Triplets for an entire season. Move Garrison to the right side where he played most of his career and bring up Koekkokoek - this is our third pairing. Bring in a #4 RHD PMD to play with Coburn on second pairing. Dotchin back to the AHL and Hedman gets Stralman back. Get rid of Brown and have Stephens / Erne / Vladdy play on the fourth line. Paquette serves popcorn with Dumont. Vasi mans the net for an entire season and dominates all the way to the cup.

Is a top line PF and #3 RHD PMD too much to ask? **** the cap ... make it so Yzergod.

What are we giving up for the PF? I don't necessarily see what you're looking for in any of the UFAs available this summer. **EDIT: Some notable names with one year left on their contract after this season: Nash, Kane (ew), Neal (maybe not quite a PF?), van Riemsdyk, Hornqvist, and after that you start getting away from first line material.**

As for the RHD, I wonder how Zbynek Michalek is these days? One guy I'd love to see us give a tryout is Adam Clendening. He's apparently been playing quietly really well for the Rangers, and the last time I looked it seems Vigneault may not like him.
 
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Rschmitz

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What are we giving up for the PF? I don't necessarily see what you're looking for in any of the UFAs available this summer. **EDIT: Some notable names with one year left on their contract after this season: Nash, Kane (ew), Neal (maybe not quite a PF?), van Riemsdyk, Hornqvist, and after that you start getting away from first line material.**

As for the RHD, I wonder how Zbynek Michalek is these days? One guy I'd love to see us give a tryout is Adam Clendening. He's apparently been playing quietly really well for the Rangers, and the last time I looked it seems Vigneault may not like him.

They'd have to choose not to qualify Clendening, which is doubtful. If you mean trade, I think we can find better options.
 

2020 Cup Champions

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They'd have to choose not to qualify Clendening, which is doubtful. If you mean trade, I think we can find better options.

I can't imagine he would cost much in terms of trade assets. Definitely not a guy I'd go big for, but they're pretty big on analytics over there (and loathe Alain Vigneault :laugh:) and he apparently checks a good number of boxes off.
 

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