TBN: Yost - "Sabres keep changing defense pairings, and not with great impact"

[Chainshot]

Heading into Tuesday night’s game, Buffalo had tried 28 pairings. I will use “tried” as having played at least 10 minutes of even strength hockey together, which is at least a couple of games. And if we put more definition around that and only looked at regular pairings (say, having played at least 50 minutes of even strength hockey together), Buffalo has 16 pairings and counting.

If those numbers seem high, it is because they are. The league average is about 22 and 11, respectively – and only the Detroit Red Wings have tried more with their makeshift blue line than Buffalo this season.

What makes matters even more remarkable is that just one pairing – one out of 28, mind you – has posted favorable 5-on-5 results in their respective minutes.

How they can keep up with this bullshit is beyond me. No one has a steady partner. They rotate situationally, let alone game to game. It's f***ing stupid, one of the most brain-dead things they have done consistently so far, which is saying something.

Click to read more...

 

[debaser66]

Basically he turned his surplus into s clear disadvantage with miscalculations& evaluation.
If that is actually what the braintrust of coaches came up with last summer...
Someone clearly f up.
Botterill should have sent Bogo home no matter how it looked.
Showcasing for a trade?
He should showcase Miller then.
I guess not playing Bogo

 

[Chainshot]

Basically he turned his surplus into s clear disadvantage with miscalculations& evaluation.
If that is actually what the braintrust of coaches came up with last summer...
Someone clearly f up.
Botterill should have sent Bogo home no matter how it looked.
Showcasing for a trade?
He should showcase Miller then.
I guess not playing Bogo

It was his plan and he was supposedly shopping Risto and Scandella, and had Pilut and Bogosian injured. What he didn't do is clear bodies in a timely fashion. He still hasn't because they elevated Pilut without clearing Bogosian off.

Add in the lack of forwards, both in Buffalo and Rochester? Good times.

 

[old kummelweck]

Steve Smith should have gone with Housley. It's a problem that he and Krueger were friends prior to RK getting the HC job.

 

[debaser66]

It looks more and more clear for everyone on the outside that he has no clue of running a team.. expect the Pegula familiy.

 

[debaser66]

Steve Smith should have gone with Housley. It's a problem that he and Krueger were friends prior to RK getting the HC job.

There were enough HCs available after it was already clear that Housley was terribad... not getting rid of smith...he should have sent all the assistents packing

 

[slip]

The seven man rotation has caused me to lose confidence in Krueger's ability to coach in the NHL.

 

[Chainshot]

The seven man rotation has caused me to lose confidence in Krueger's ability to coach in the NHL.

It's one of the things that has me wondering at his abilities. Sobotka on the second line was certainly one. The special teams is another.

 

[Chainshot]

Steve Smith should have gone with Housley. It's a problem that he and Krueger were friends prior to RK getting the HC job.

Yeah, the work he did in Carolina has not been replicated AT ALL. Sad given how he helped Pesce and Slavin and Faulk, and how the Carolina PK did with him responsible.

 

[joshjull]

Yeah, the work he did in Carolina has not been replicated AT ALL. Sad given how he helped Pesce and Slavin and Faulk, and how the Carolina PK did with him responsible.

I have to disagree and I think the article is a pretty sloppy.


We are currently a very good defensive team 5v5.

CA/60 —> 5th
SCA/60 -> 8th
HDCA/60 -> 6th
GA/60 ——> 8th
xGA/60 —>6th


Where Yost is sloppy is his implication that the 7 dmen rotation is the cause of all the combos but one not having positive underlying numbers.

Thats a sloppy argument since the reason for them struggling to “win” in CF%, SCF%, etc is due to this teams complete inability to generate offense 5v5.

CF/60 —-> 30th
SCF/60 —> 30th
HDCF/60 -> 28th
GF/60 ——> 19th
xGF/60 —-> 30th


Are we really going to put that on the 7 dman rotation? It may or may not be a factor. But I feel quite confident saying the main cause is our forward group sucking. If we had more talent up front the various d-pairs numbers (CF%, GF%, etc) wouldn’t be looking so bad. Thats with 6 or 7 dmen dressed.

 

[joshjull]

Its somewhat impressive we’re 8th in GA/60 when you look at how bad our underlying goaltending numbers are.

Team SCSV% —> 22nd
Team HDSV% -> 28th

Our goalies HDSV% vs the 52 goalies with 800+ minutes

Hutton -> .816 (34th)
Ullmark -> .795 (44th)

Their inability to stop HD chances is also an indication in my mind that they are contributing to our PK struggles. Which is mostly HD chances though the situations aren’t completely the same.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's one of the things that has me wondering at his abilities. Sobotka on the second line was certainly one. The special teams is another.

That is fair, but good lord, it is tough to objectively judge him with the roster given to him.

 

[Chainshot]

I have to disagree and I think the article is a pretty sloppy.


We are currently a very good defensive team 5v5.

CA/60 —> 5th
SCA/60 -> 8th
HDCA/60 -> 6th
GA/60 ——> 8th
xGA/60 —>6th


Where Yost is sloppy is his implication that the 7 dmen rotation is the cause of all the combos but one not having positive underlying numbers.

Thats a sloppy argument since the reason for them struggling to “win” in CF%, SCF%, etc is due to this teams complete inability to generate offense 5v5.

CF/60 —-> 30th
SCF/60 —> 30th
HDCF/60 -> 28th
GF/60 ——> 19th
xGF/60 —-> 30th


Are we really going to put that on the 7 dman rotation? It may or may not be a factor. But I feel quite confident saying the main cause is our forward group sucking. If we had more talent up front the various d-pairs numbers (CF%, GF%, etc) wouldn’t be looking so bad. Thats with 6 or 7 dmen dressed.

Which defensemen have taken noticeable steps forward under Smith's body of work? I think your analysis misses the point of what I posted. Carolina turned Pesce and Slavin out as two of the most unheralded, complete defensemen in the game. Smith had a hand in that. He hasn't done that in Buffalo.

 

[joshjull]

Which defensemen have taken noticeable steps forward under Smith's body of work? I think your analysis misses the point of what I posted. Carolina turned Pesce and Slavin out as two of the most unheralded, complete defensemen in the game. Smith had a hand in that. He hasn't done that in Buffalo.

I was addressing your posts in the thread not just the one. But I never clarified that. My bad on that.


As for Smith, who is even comparable to those two that we’ve had during his tenure outside of Joker? Young guys he was able to start molding as 20/21 year old rookies. Maybe Pilut could be viewed as another even though he is older. Dahlin is that age but hardly in the same boat.

 

[joshjull]

Getting back to the 7 dmen. I’ve been looking at the numbers recently. I’m starting to think the d-group may be as much of the reason for dressing 7 dmen as the forwards.

5v5 average minutes a night
Risto (16:49)
Montour (15:54)
McCabe (15:43)
Joker (14:44)
Dahlin (14:40)
Miller (14:24)
Pilut (14:16)
Scandella (14:12)
Bogo (14:03)


Risto is getting almost 1:30 less a night than last season 5v5 with this set up. He’s also the only one really getting clearcut top 4 minutes. Though it’s getting into 2nd pairing territory. Montour and McCabe are on the edge of that.

Everyone under that line is essentially getting 3rd pairing minutes. They are still trying to shelter Dahlin/Joker now Pilut (small sample though) while not having faith in Miller/Bogo/previously Scandella to give them more minutes than that.

I think if they went back to 6 dmen it means a lot more of Risto, Montour and McCabe. Would Risto’s play sustain or go back to the old bad normal if his minutes shot up?

I don’t think the coaching staff feels they have a set of 4 dmen they trust or wants to throw into the roles yet of top 4 dmen. They will once the coaches feel the youngsters (Dahlin/Joker/Pilut) are ready. But I have no idea when that will be.

When it happens @Chainshot thats probably when we’ll see what impact Smith had on the youngsters.

 

[Aladyyn]

I have to disagree and I think the article is a pretty sloppy.


We are currently a very good defensive team 5v5.

CA/60 —> 5th
SCA/60 -> 8th
HDCA/60 -> 6th
GA/60 ——> 8th
xGA/60 —>6th


Where Yost is sloppy is his implication that the 7 dmen rotation is the cause of all the combos but one not having positive underlying numbers.

Thats a sloppy argument since the reason for them struggling to “win” in CF%, SCF%, etc is due to this teams complete inability to generate offense 5v5.

CF/60 —-> 30th
SCF/60 —> 30th
HDCF/60 -> 28th
GF/60 ——> 19th
xGF/60 —-> 30th


Are we really going to put that on the 7 dman rotation? It may or may not be a factor. But I feel quite confident saying the main cause is our forward group sucking. If we had more talent up front the various d-pairs numbers (CF%, GF%, etc) wouldn’t be looking so bad. Thats with 6 or 7 dmen dressed.

Or maybe the coach could let the team play in a way that takes advantage of its blueline talent instead of counting on shitty forwards.

 

[old kummelweck]

I have to disagree and I think the article is a pretty sloppy.


We are currently a very good defensive team 5v5.

CA/60 —> 5th
SCA/60 -> 8th
HDCA/60 -> 6th
GA/60 ——> 8th
xGA/60 —>6th


Where Yost is sloppy is his implication that the 7 dmen rotation is the cause of all the combos but one not having positive underlying numbers.

Thats a sloppy argument since the reason for them struggling to “win” in CF%, SCF%, etc is due to this teams complete inability to generate offense 5v5.

CF/60 —-> 30th
SCF/60 —> 30th
HDCF/60 -> 28th
GF/60 ——> 19th
xGF/60 —-> 30th


Are we really going to put that on the 7 dman rotation? It may or may not be a factor. But I feel quite confident saying the main cause is our forward group sucking. If we had more talent up front the various d-pairs numbers (CF%, GF%, etc) wouldn’t be looking so bad. Thats with 6 or 7 dmen dressed.

Yeah, the article is wrong-minded. But those stats could also just illustrate defense at the expense of offense. That's fine if your PP and PK are working - that would translate into more wins. It hasn't and I think that's a coaching issue, not a personnel issue or talent issue.

 

[Chainshot]

I was addressing your posts in the thread not just the one. But I never clarified that. My bad on that.


As for Smith, who is even comparable to those two that we’ve had during his tenure outside of Joker? Young guys he was able to start molding as 20/21 year old rookies. Maybe Pilut could be viewed as another even though he is older. Dahlin is that age but hardly in the same boat.

He worked with Pilut a bit last year, and then Lawrence had to unlearn what he had in Buffalo when he went back to Rochester. Same thing happened with Guhle the year prior to that. Phil's multiple set plays and poorly designed system certainly play a role, but it is an area that seemed like it would be a win when they got Smith and has not been.

Getting back to the 7 dmen. I’ve been looking at the numbers recently. I’m starting to think the d-group may be as much of the reason for dressing 7 dmen as the forwards.

5v5 average minutes a night
Risto (16:49)
Montour (15:54)
McCabe (15:43)
Joker (14:44)
Dahlin (14:40)
Miller (14:24)
Pilut (14:16)
Scandella (14:12)
Bogo (14:03)


Risto is getting almost 1:30 less a night than last season 5v5 with this set up. He’s also the only one really getting clearcut top 4 minutes. Though it’s getting into 2nd pairing territory. Montour and McCabe are on the edge of that.

Everyone under that line is essentially getting 3rd pairing minutes. They are still trying to shelter Dahlin/Joker now Pilut (small sample though) while not having faith in Miller/Bogo/previously Scandella to give them more minutes than that.

I think if they went back to 6 dmen it means a lot more of Risto, Montour and McCabe. Would Risto’s play sustain or go back to the old bad normal if his minutes shot up?

I don’t think the coaching staff feels they have a set of 4 dmen they trust or wants to throw into the roles yet of top 4 dmen. They will once the coaches feel the youngsters (Dahlin/Joker/Pilut) are ready. But I have no idea when that will be.

When it happens @Chainshot thats probably when we’ll see what impact Smith had on the youngsters.

The guys they lean on in their own zone aren't very good at doing things to get out of their own zone and reducing shot pressure. Granted, they have so many one-way forwards who aren't even very good at that part of being one-way that it's going to have an impact.

Reducing Ristolainen's use showed well in December, especially when he was paired with someone who could move himself and the puck out of the zone in Montour, when deploying him more on the offensive side of things. They are at a cross-roads in that their PMD's like Dahlin, Jokiharju, and Pilut aren't classical powerhouse guys who can clear the crease. But at some point, they need to start using them in the quick-stick/fast transition method of defense that is so much more prevalent. Watching McCabe, Bogosian and Ristolainen drift out of position or go for an ill-timed hit does nothing to show they are reliable defensively, nor their propensity to throw the puck away does anything but pile chances onto chances given up.

Perhaps what we see is that their defense is mostly poor at their jobs and they may simply need to bite the bullet to have their mobile breakout guys doing more work in their own zone.

 

[joshjull]

He worked with Pilut a bit last year, and then Lawrence had to unlearn what he had in Buffalo when he went back to Rochester. Same thing happened with Guhle the year prior to that. Phil's multiple set plays and poorly designed system certainly play a role, but it is an area that seemed like it would be a win when they got Smith and has not been.

I feel quite safe putting Pilut struggles on Phil since Guhle had the same issues as you point out. Both had confidence issues when they returned to the Amerks. Phil being the common denominator between the two youngsters struggles.

I still don’t get the complaint over Smith.

He worked with Pesce/Slavin for almost 3 full seasons starting when they were 20/21 year old rookies. The only young dman he’s had a chance to work with for any length of time here is Dahlin. Who ins;t in the same category as those two Canes. Joker (50gms) and Pilut (40gms) are somewhat similar and have fairly small sample sizes. These are the only guys (Joker/Pilut) on the roster with any chance to develop into the types of dmen you’re talking about on our roster. We are in early days with his body of work with these youngsters.

I’m also not going to condemn Smith for not working miracles with our flawed experienced dmen. I don’t think its very fair to reference Slavin/Pesce and then lament he hasn’t turned Risto, Bogo, McCabe, etc into similar players.

Seems a bit premature to be pronouncing Smith’s time here as a failure.

The guys they lean on in their own zone aren't very good at doing things to get out of their own zone and reducing shot pressure. Granted, they have so many one-way forwards who aren't even very good at that part of being one-way that it's going to have an impact.

Reducing Ristolainen's use showed well in December, especially when he was paired with someone who could move himself and the puck out of the zone in Montour, when deploying him more on the offensive side of things. They are at a cross-roads in that their PMD's like Dahlin, Jokiharju, and Pilut aren't classical powerhouse guys who can clear the crease. But at some point, they need to start using them in the quick-stick/fast transition method of defense that is so much more prevalent. Watching McCabe, Bogosian and Ristolainen drift out of position or go for an ill-timed hit does nothing to show they are reliable defensively, nor their propensity to throw the puck away does anything but pile chances onto chances given up.

Perhaps what we see is that their defense is mostly poor at their jobs and they may simply need to bite the bullet to have their mobile breakout guys doing more work in their own zone.

I agree they’re at a crossroads. But I don’t think it has anything to do with a stylistic decision. It has to do with when they feel comfortable throwing youngsters like Dahlin, Joker and Pilut into harder roles and minutes.

 

[joshjull]

Yeah, the article is wrong-minded. But those stats could also just illustrate defense at the expense of offense. That's fine if your PP and PK are working - that would translate into more wins. It hasn't and I think that's a coaching issue, not a personnel issue or talent issue.

Even if thats the case it doesn’t dispute what I posted. We would be playing that way with 6 or 7 dmen.