Proposal: Yes or No: Hit the reset button on this team

[Purity*]

The main hope is that we drop hard enough by the trade deadline to start selling pieces off.

We can get some sick returns from selling off core pieces; Kessel/Phaneuf/Bozak/Lupul/Franson can return a lot of great stuff and hopefully a good spot in this year's stacked draft.

We can salvage a lot, it's not all that bad.

 

[DylanSensFan]

This core has failed under two coaches, how much more rope do we give them?

Fire Carlyle and hire Paul MacLean. I am not sure if this will fix the problems, but it might jettison your team into the playoffs at least.

 

[BigWilly]

The main hope is that we drop hard enough by the trade deadline to start selling pieces off.

We can get some sick returns from selling off core pieces; Kessel/Phaneuf/Bozak/Lupul/Franson can return a lot of great stuff and hopefully a good spot in this year's stacked draft.

We can salvage a lot, it's not all that bad.

The problem is that our management never seems to admit that we're bad, and just keeps the team together for a "playoff push" no matter where we are in the standings on trade deadline day.

 

[schenneuf]

I say, give another coach the rest of the season with this core.

Fire Carlyle.

The stats just too much to ignore anymore. Wins and losses have stopped mattering.

I think they need another voice. I remember the 24/7, he was so whiny and just repeated the same stuff over and over again.

Why not. It's happening in the summer anyway. Will be a new direction thing.

No, I think they need to start sitting players, start making them accountable. First on my list would be JVR.
Why in hell can't the players play the system Carlyle is employing? If he's not, then yes, he needs to be fired, although I can't imagine he has been the coach this long if there isn't a system. If the players don't play the system, staple their ass to the bench or the press box. If they don't change their ways, trade them. I would sooner cut my losses then continue the suffering and bleeding.
I am wondering just how many of our so-called key pieces would actually be that on a contending team.
I truly hope Shanahan has the balls, and the approval of the nut cases in authority above him, to ship out the players who need to be shown the door!

 

[Trapper]

No, I think they need to start sitting players, start making them accountable. First on my list would be JVR.
Why in hell can't the players play the system Carlyle is employing? If he's not, then yes, he needs to be fired, although I can't imagine he has been the coach this long if there isn't a system. If the players don't play the system, staple their ass to the bench or the press box. If they don't change their ways, trade them. I would sooner cut my losses then continue the suffering and bleeding.
I am wondering just how many of our so-called key pieces would actually be that on a contending team.
I truly hope Shanahan has the balls, and the approval of the nut cases in authority above him, to ship out the players who need to be shown the door!

Shanahan of all people should know a winning organization is built down the middle and on defense.
Yzerman,Fedorov,Larionov,Draper down the middle.
Lidstrom,Konstantinov,Fetisov,Murphy on the back end.
Who were the wingers? Kozlov,Brown,McCarty,Maltby,Lapointe,Kocur,Gilchrist. Where is the Kessel? Who was the last piece added? A winger named Shanahan. But the structure was in place. I hope this is his goal.

 

[Mess]

Shanahan of all people should know a winning organization is built down the middle and on defense.
Yzerman,Fedorov,Larionov,Draper down the middle.
Lidstrom,Konstantinov,Fetisov,Murphy on the back end.
Who were the wingers? Kozlov,Brown,McCarty,Maltby,Lapointe,Kocur,Gilchrist. Where is the Kessel? Who was the last piece added? A winger named Shanahan. But the structure was in place. I hope this is his goal.

Shanahan knows that all too well.

He also knows he inherited a very poorly ill conceived rebuilding plan that was assembled from the Wingers In and not the Goalie Out. Slapped together hastily by other teams unwantables instead of built patiently through the entry draft, while 5 of its highest paid forwards are all wingers with max Cap spending.

Shanahan is already on record as stating Leafs will not be trading away high draft picks any longer for quick fix attempts acknowledging that in a Cap World more than ever before that your drafting and developing drive your success. He also openly criticized Leafs past drafting of selecting safe picks focused on size and grit when he wants the team to draft skill (as we have seen from Nylander his 1st selection).

Rome wasn't built in a day and Leaf Nation unfortunately has to now patiently wait until his new generals Mark Hunter & Kyle Dubas etc can assist him in cleaning up this inherited mess.

 

[Trapper]

Shanahan knows that all too well.

He also knows he inherited a very poorly ill conceived rebuilding plan that was assembled from the Wingers In and not the Goalie Out. Slapped together hastily by other teams unwantables instead of built patiently through the entry draft, while 5 of its highest paid forwards are all wingers with max Cap spending.

Shanahan is already on record as stating Leafs will not be trading away high draft picks any longer for quick fix attempts acknowledging that in a Cap World more than ever before that your drafting and developing drive your success. He also openly criticized Leafs past drafting of selecting safe picks focused on size and grit when he wants the team to draft skill (as we have seen from Nylander his 1st selection).

Rome wasn't built in a day and Leaf Nation unfortunately has to now patiently wait until his new generals Mark Hunter & Kyle Dubas etc can assist him in cleaning up this inherited mess.

I would like to get a look at the Dubas mid season advanced stats report and hear who and what he really believes is dragging this team down.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

The problem is that our management never seems to admit that we're bad, and just keeps the team together for a "playoff push" no matter where we are in the standings on trade deadline day.

Losing 8 of the next 10 might force their hand to do something at the trade deadline. That sort of record is possible if Bernier stays out. Losing 15 out of your last 18 should be a sign it's time to switch gears into being sellers. Hoping the Leafs can pull it off.

 

[Mess]

I would like to get a look at the Dubas mid season advanced stats report and hear who and what he really believes is dragging this team down.

We don't need to see his secret advanced stats notes to know the answer to this.

We can simply sort the NHL players from worst to first in puck possession CF% in the entire NHL and see Leafs top line of JVR -- Bozak and Kessel are all among the top 40.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=300&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC

We can also see that all 6 of Leafs regular Dmen are amongst the top 45 worst possession defensemen in the NHL (with so called improvements) Polak and Robidas leading the charge.

Polak @ 13th, Robidas @ 16th, Phaneuf @ 20th, Gardiner @ 21st, Franson @ 33rd and Rielly @ 44th worst CF% Dmen.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=300&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC

Blow it Up !!!

 

[hockeyfanz*]

guys like you are so weird. I was laying down but had to get up to reply. The best prospect went from Tlusty to Rielly because Burke's teams ****ing sucked.....and when you suck, you draft high. Give me a break - it's like leaf fans are simpletons. You know what, the prospects would have been even better with Seguin and Hamilton because not only did burke's team suck, they sucked really really bad.


Burke shouldn't get any credit. He miscalculated the team by trading picks for a fat winger and the team still finished in the basement and that winger hasn't rounded out his game enough to get them out of that basement.


When JFJ took over, he took over after the Quinn years. The leafs were winning during the quinn era....they were also trading picks away during the Quinn. JFJ was bad, but he also had absolutely zeron help in the youth/drafting department from Quinn and co during the pre-salary cap days.


Burke added Kessel by essentially trading Seguin and Hamilton. Contrary to his assumption, with the addition of Kessel, his team still sucked. He drafted Kadri (because his team sucked). He drafted Rielly (because his team still sucked). That's what happens when you suck - you draft high....provided that you're not a bonehead that trades the picks away.

Also, Leafs drafted Schenn just before burke got here (yup, because the leafs sucked). That should have been an indication to burke where the team was at.

Burke/Nonis = Worst Management since Gerry MacNamara (Pal Hal's GM). Wow does Brian Burke SUCK. If this team isn't enough evidence then I don't know what is.

Too bad the Leafs didn't start with Niedermayer/Pronger/Selanne/JS Giguere in his prime. With Getzlaf and Perry in their youth. Im sure Burke coulda done something with that eh? Coulda maybe added Kessel and a couple of FA defenceman and won a cup.

What a dumb-a$$ moron. Nonis is horrendous too.

 

[ULF_55]

We don't need to see his secret advanced stats notes to know the answer to this.

We can simply sort the NHL players from worst to first in puck possession CF% in the entire NHL and see Leafs top line of JVR -- Bozak and Kessel are all among the top 40.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=300&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC

We can also see that all 6 of Leafs regular Dmen are amongst the top 45 worst possession defensemen in the NHL (with so called improvements) Polak and Robidas leading the charge.

Polak @ 13th, Robidas @ 16th, Phaneuf @ 20th, Gardiner @ 21st, Franson @ 33rd and Rielly @ 44th worst CF% Dmen.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...=300&teamid=0&type=corsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC

Blow it Up !!!

Being too harsh on the boys.

They are just 4th. worst in shot differential in the NHL.
They are just 2nd. worst in shots allowed.
They are just 3rd. worst for most outshot games.

They do have the most wins when being outshot, but if they had to outshoot the opposition to get a win they be fighting Carolina and Edmonton in the Derby.

I'm shocked that people think this team might need a reset. I never would have thought that myself.

 

[RLF]

Time for Carlyle to go...although I don't think it is all his fault.
That said, also time to change the core(never liked it from the start).
These two things need to be done for any real change.

The Leafs should watch how the Canadian Juniors come out of their end...not one player over their own blueline, they come out as a team and generate speed through the neutral zone with passing options. If there is a turnover, support is there since all the forwards aren't already at the other teams blueline like the Leaf forwards.

It's disgusting to watch our forwards fly the zone the way they do.

This is why personel needs to change as well. There is no way Carlyle (or assistants) are telling the players to leave the zone and stand still between the redline and other teams blueline and wait for a pass. Poor possession numbers...wonder why?

Carlyle is not getting through to them, he goes first, but trades have to be made!

 

[ULF_55]

Time for Carlyle to go...although I don't think it is all his fault.
That said, also time to change the core(never liked it from the start).
These two things need to be done for any real change.

The Leafs should watch how the Canadian Juniors come out of their end...not one player over their own blueline, they come out as a team and generate speed through the neutral zone with passing options. If there is a turnover, support is there since all the forwards aren't already at the other teams blueline like the Leaf forwards.

It's disgusting to watch our forwards fly the zone the way they do.

This is why personel needs to change as well. There is no way Carlyle (or assistants) are telling the players to leave the zone and stand still between the redline and other teams blueline and wait for a pass. Poor possession numbers...wonder why?

Carlyle is not getting through to them, he goes first, but trades have to be made!

Well the great thing about a team like the Leafs, oft injured Bernier is the only untouchable.

 

[Durkin67]

Time for Carlyle to go...although I don't think it is all his fault.
That said, also time to change the core(never liked it from the start).
These two things need to be done for any real change.

The Leafs should watch how the Canadian Juniors come out of their end...not one player over their own blueline, they come out as a team and generate speed through the neutral zone with passing options. If there is a turnover, support is there since all the forwards aren't already at the other teams blueline like the Leaf forwards.

It's disgusting to watch our forwards fly the zone the way they do.

This is why personel needs to change as well. There is no way Carlyle (or assistants) are telling the players to leave the zone and stand still between the redline and other teams blueline and wait for a pass. Poor possession numbers...wonder why?

Carlyle is not getting through to them, he goes first, but trades have to be made!

Im finally at the point where I might agree. Carlyle is losing the room IMO. They're tuning him out it appears, but I detest the idea of letting this lazy, entitled group off the hook. The D gets almost no support from the forwards who flat out refuse to fall back and give them any breakout options.

Who else needs to go?

 

[613Leafer]

Bozak, Kessel, and JVR are 361st, 362nd, and 363rd out of... 363 forwards in the league for shots against / 60 minutes of play (minimum 200 minutes played).

I dont know how anyone can still defend this line. I dont give a flying hoot about what their offensive point totals are. Last time I checked, you win hockey games by OUTSCORING the opposition, not by just putting up a lot of points. Kadri, Santorelli, Komarov, Winnik, etc are all plus players while Bozak/Kessel/JVR are a combined -12.

Sell high on these jokers. They put in less effort in the defensive zone then your average player in a men's league pick-up game. It's not one game, it's not one month, and it's not just this season. Their offensive point totals give them good trade value, so let's turn that into some pieces that can help make this team harder to play against.

 

[Mess]

I'm shocked that people think this team might need a reset. I never would have thought that myself.

You and I wanted this team "Blown Up" coming out of the 2004 lockout as we could already see this coming down the pipeline without a reset button push entering a Cap World. Don't make me search the archives for 100's of your previous posts suggesting it. I will you know.

MLSE said "No" to JFJ at the time so that is on past Ownership. However as we found out later the Teachers pension plan was secretly trying to unload the Leafs so they wanted it to remain competitive despite an aging & costly roster with limited future ahead. Winning is more profitable than tanking and rebuilding when it comes to selling an asset off to the highest bidder.

After the Bell/Rogers purchase was made official it was clear the agenda of the OTPP to avoid hitting the reset button prior to sale.

However when Burke blew into town telling the former BOG that JFJ was wrong and a reset (draft rebuild) wasn't needed and a quick retooling on the fly by him would get them their winning results quickly, the teachers bought it hook, line and sinker as it was music to their financial $$$ ears.

Bell and Rogers having full control quickly ushered Burke out the door before he could do any more damage to their team, and spend even a minute on the team post 2nd lockout on his slap happy impatient retooling taking us to this current state of team affairs.

Too bad hitting the reset button today couldn't magically take the Leafs back in time to Nov 2008 and we can erase the past 6 years of embarrassment and disappointment of failure and none playoffs. Allowing the Leafs to begin the rebuild again at the source of the mistake.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Reset button will be hit or not hit based on whether Leafs bring in Babcock and then based on what he likes and dislikes on the roster.

Kessel has clearly shown he won't change his style of play to suit a coach, so I personally have never seen a player like Kessel play for a coach like Babcock. Possibly Selanne back when he was with the Ducks??

So that's a likely player to be ousted. If he does get moved out, where does Bozak end up? Without his compatibility with Kessel, he doesn't really make the cut as a 1C. Does Kadri jump into that role, and Bozak slide down to the 2C? Possibly 3C? Is Bozak even a Babcock type player?

IMO, guys I think Babcock would want to keep on this roster going forward are:
van Riemsdyk, Bozak, Lupul, Winnik, Kadri, Santorelli, Komarov, Holland, and Clarkson.

On D, I really have no clue who Babcock would keep. People want Phaneuf gone, but Babcock isn't stupid. He'll recognize that Phaneuf makes up 80% of the talen on that blue-line, so unless Phaneuf is replaced by another d-man that can absorb 80% of the responsibility for that blue line, he'll stick with what he has.

I feel like Gardiner would still be kept, as would Franson. Rielly...? Not sure. Probably.

Polak is very likely, Robidas as well. Probably no changes to the backend unless someone like Percy or Holzer gives cause to seriously consider changes. I think Gardiner and Rielly are probably lowest on the totem pole for a coach like Babcock.

 

[syc]

Not yet. I'd like to see this team under a competent coach first.

^This

To blow it up right now would be an emo action. Sure the roster needs some work but even with Crosby and Stamkos on this team we would still be getting outshot 2-1 with Carlye as coach.

 

[ULF_55]

You and I wanted this team "Blown Up" coming out of the 2004 lockout as we could already see this coming down the pipeline without a reset button push entering a Cap World. Don't make me search the archives for 100's of your previous posts suggesting it. I will you know.

MLSE said "No" to JFJ at the time so that is on past Ownership. However as we found out later the Teachers pension plan was secretly trying to unload the Leafs so they wanted it to remain competitive despite an aging & costly roster with limited future ahead. Winning is more profitable than tanking and rebuilding when it comes to selling an asset off to the highest bidder.

After the Bell/Rogers purchase was made official it was clear the agenda of the OTPP to avoid hitting the reset button prior to sale.

However when Burke blew into town telling the former BOG that JFJ was wrong and a reset (draft rebuild) wasn't needed and a quick retooling on the fly by him would get them their winning results quickly, the teachers bought it hook, line and sinker as it was music to their financial $$$ ears.

Bell and Rogers having full control quickly ushered Burke out the door before he could do any more damage to their team, and spend even a minute on the team post 2nd lockout on his slap happy impatient retooling taking us to this current state of team affairs.

Too bad hitting the reset button today couldn't magically take the Leafs back in time to Nov 2008 and we can erase the past 6 years of embarrassment and disappointment of failure and none playoffs. Allowing the Leafs to begin the rebuild again at the source of the mistake.

Kessel and Phaneuf on the block would be a great start.

Make good trades to team on the cusp, or teams that believe either/both player(s) are being misused in Toronto and in their city they'd become model citizens.

 

[RLF]

Im finally at the point where I might agree. Carlyle is losing the room IMO. They're tuning him out it appears, but I detest the idea of letting this lazy, entitled group off the hook. The D gets almost no support from the forwards who flat out refuse to fall back and give them any breakout options.

Who else needs to go?

I know this may not be popular, but I would start with Phil. The return should be decent moving forward and teams like Florida, Nashville, Colorado, Buffalo...(maybe Calgary?) could have interest and have assets we could use.

Next, Leafs have to decide who they are going to continue to build around on D. If it is Phaneuf, then Gardiner goes imo. If it is youth in Gardiner and Rielly, then Phanuef goes as I don't see him as a fit with either.

Bottom 6 is fine, but we need a more two-way, physical top six to go with the Bozaks, Kadri's, (Nylander,) JVR's up front. I don't think this team can build around Phaneuf, Gardiner, Rielly on the backend either. A more physical team should also up the physicality of the above mentioned up front. Each player individually may not be bad on this team, but as a group, they are not compatible. I never thought they were and still don't think they are.

 

[ULF_55]

^This

To blow it up right now would be an emo action. Sure the roster needs some work but even with Crosby and Stamkos on this team we would still be getting outshot 2-1 with Carlye as coach.

And they could skip down the yellow brick road looking for a heart, brain, and courage for their top core players.

 

[Trapper]

Kessel and Phaneuf on the block would be a great start.

Make good trades to team on the cusp, or teams that believe either/both player(s) are being misused in Toronto and in their city they'd become model citizens.

Start with Kessel and Bozak.
You can win with solid D and limited scoring. Not the other way around.
I'm not a Phaneuf fan in the least, I think he is overpaid and has poor IQ at critical moments of the game but I do believe he will play whatever style a coach asks him to. The others just want to play 1 style and always revert to that.

 

[Mess]

Kessel and Phaneuf on the block would be a great start.

Make good trades to team on the cusp, or teams that believe either/both player(s) are being misused in Toronto and in their city they'd become model citizens.

Nick Kyper on SN yesterday claimed Nonis is motivated to make a big trade if he can and is working the phones trying to change the dynamics of the team by moving big contract core player(s).

 

[Trapper]

Nick Kyper on SN yesterday claimed Nonis is motivated to make a big trade if he can and is working the phones trying to change the dynamics of the team by moving big contract core player(s).

Probably Lupul or Gardiner. I hardly see an earth shattering deal.

 

[Smif]

Reset button will be hit or not hit based on whether Leafs bring in Babcock and then based on what he likes and dislikes on the roster.

Kessel has clearly shown he won't change his style of play to suit a coach, so I personally have never seen a player like Kessel play for a coach like Babcock. Possibly Selanne back when he was with the Ducks??

So that's a likely player to be ousted. If he does get moved out, where does Bozak end up? Without his compatibility with Kessel, he doesn't really make the cut as a 1C. Does Kadri jump into that role, and Bozak slide down to the 2C? Possibly 3C? Is Bozak even a Babcock type player?

IMO, guys I think Babcock would want to keep on this roster going forward are:
van Riemsdyk, Bozak, Lupul, Winnik, Kadri, Santorelli, Komarov, Holland, and Clarkson.

On D, I really have no clue who Babcock would keep. People want Phaneuf gone, but Babcock isn't stupid. He'll recognize that Phaneuf makes up 80% of the talen on that blue-line, so unless Phaneuf is replaced by another d-man that can absorb 80% of the responsibility for that blue line, he'll stick with what he has.

I feel like Gardiner would still be kept, as would Franson. Rielly...? Not sure. Probably.

Polak is very likely, Robidas as well. Probably no changes to the backend unless someone like Percy or Holzer gives cause to seriously consider changes. I think Gardiner and Rielly are probably lowest on the totem pole for a coach like Babcock.

You think if a new coach comes in he's going to have Rielly lowest on his "keep" list!?

IMO, the three that need to go would be Kessel, Bozak, and Gardiner. Three players that are a combined -20 and offer little other than offense. The PP takes a hit but should be offset by shots and goals against.