X's and O's

[Porter Stoutheart]

Not related to any conversation, but one thing I don't like in modern hockey is philosophy of allowing attacking players behind you at the net-front. I guess the idea is try to prevent your defenders from screening the goalie, but I prefer a "never let someone deeper than you (unless below the goal line) defensive philosophy. Stay deeper than them and knock them on their butt when they try to tip/screen.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a few years. You can see other teams who take the opposite approach (STL, Winnipeg), and it really feels to me like they get a fair amount of leeway from the refs to employ that philosophy. It's true that with our poor PK it might occasionally cost us if we played a little tougher in front of our net. But I still have to think we'd get a net benefit overall.

Granted, our player personnel may not mesh well with a tougher defensive style in front of the net. And that's a problem too. There is some chicken and some egg in this issue.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Hal Gill called out Josi on that play saying he should have played Dahlin more aggressively by moving up on him and forcing a play rather than just coming halfway and sweeping his stick.

It took a perfect pass, and Weber still got his stick on it but wasn't able to get a good enough deflection. Josi gave up too much time and space and he threaded the needle.

Both Josi and Ryan need to be better on that play. Obviously Ryan is way out of position and should be covering someone. Josi was caught in no man's land on that play. He started off in front of the net and figured out late that no one was pressuring the puck so then he kind of goes toward the puck halfheartedly and isn't effectively blocking a passing lane or pressuring the puck. Both issues should be looked at on video so responsibilities can be sorted out better in the future.

But if you dig deeper into the flow of the play you can break this down into a complete failure by 5 players. All of this happens because Ryan chased Eichel out to the blueline and Calle stayed on that side of the ice as well, this created an overloaded situation on the left side of the defense that basically acted like a power play setup for Buffalo.

The coach will have to decide whether Ryan should have handed Eichel off to Calle and returned to his responsibilities down low leaving Calle and Arvy to cover Eichel and the left D while Ryan, Weber, and Josi sort out the 3 players down low. Which probably means Josi to the wall, Weber on the man in front of the net and Ryan to the backside oppenent.

Or

If Calle should have shifted to the middle with his Dman then Arvy should be the player pressuring the other Dman on the half wall with Josi and Weber covering the forwards around the net. And you also have to tell Ryan to make sure he stays goal side of Eichel so he isn't the late man coming down from the point with a shot from the high slot.

I'd coach the second concept if the center is chasing someone out high (like what happened) but probably the first if one of the Dmen is moving out high in coverage.

Not related to any conversation, but one thing I don't like in modern hockey is philosophy of allowing attacking players behind you at the net-front. I guess the idea is try to prevent your defenders from screening the goalie, but I prefer a "never let someone deeper than you (unless below the goal line) defensive philosophy. Stay deeper than them and knock them on their butt when they try to tip/screen.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a few years. You can see other teams who take the opposite approach (STL, Winnipeg), and it really feels to me like they get a fair amount of leeway from the refs to employ that philosophy. It's true that with our poor PK it might occasionally cost us if we played a little tougher in front of our net. But I still have to think we'd get a net benefit overall.

Granted, our player personnel may not mesh well with a tougher defensive style in front of the net. And that's a problem too. There is some chicken and some egg in this issue.

There are ways for smaller Dmen to be much for effective in front of the net at controlling sticks and opposing players it's not all about size. I think some of what we are seeing is left over thought processes from Lavi that as soon as one of the Preds touches the puck it's time to fly the zone, defensive responsibilities be damned.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

There are ways for smaller Dmen to be much for effective in front of the net at controlling sticks and opposing players it's not all about size. I think some of what we are seeing is left over thought processes from Lavi that as soon as one of the Preds touches the puck it's time to fly the zone, defensive responsibilities be damned.

There are ways. I don't see our D being particularly invested in employing those ways, however.

I wondered if that was a McCarthyism, but looking at his playing days anyway, he sure seemed to be an "involved" defender... making up for slightly sub-optimal size by playing with a pretty decent amount of "edge" in his game.

Maybe it comes down more to our player personnel than the coaching? It's basically impossible to parse this stuff out from the outside. We know what's broken... we just don't know who to hold responsible.

 

[glenngineer]

Anyone find it interesting that we're seeing Granlund and Turris being used on the PK? We inserted Watson back into the lineup the other night and I don't believe he saw a PK shift, which is where he has done well in the past. I'm especially surprised at Turris being used there.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Anyone find it interesting that we're seeing Granlund and Turris being used on the PK? We inserted Watson back into the lineup the other night and I don't believe he saw a PK shift, which is where he has done well in the past. I'm especially surprised at Turris being used there.

Who they replaced him with is surprising, but Watson has given up the most GA/60 of any ok our PKers by far so I can see why he was demoted.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Anyone find it interesting that we're seeing Granlund and Turris being used on the PK? We inserted Watson back into the lineup the other night and I don't believe he saw a PK shift, which is where he has done well in the past. I'm especially surprised at Turris being used there.

And add to that Johansen only had one PK shift. We're seeing a lot more than system adjustments, icetime break downs are interesting for sure.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Who they replaced him with is surprising, but Watson has given up the most GA/60 of any ok our PKers by far so I can see why he was demoted.

The problem I have with that stat is that he was always being used as the "chaser" out high so I don't know how you could blame him for much there.

 

[Predsanddead24]

The problem I have with that stat is that he was always being used as the "chaser" out high so I don't know how you could blame him for much there.

Yeah agreed that it may be more scheme than on him in particular but I can sort of see the rationale. The other cause could just be that he hadn't played in almost two weeks and they wanted to limited his minutes. Especially since he got more 5 v 5 than usual playing on Johansens wing.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Yeah agreed that it may be more scheme than on him in particular but I can sort of see the rationale. The other cause could just be that he hadn't played in almost two weeks and they wanted to limited his minutes. Especially since he got more 5 v 5 than usual playing on Johansens wing.

Yeah, I have no problem with the decision, just commenting on a possible flaw in that stat.

I will say though that I like the fact that Hynes is using players in new and different roles to get a personal look at the players while inside the locker room rather than just floating along and accepting what Lavi was doing as gospel.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Our team defensive play is just so brutally bad it kills me. Breaking down the goals last night they are all so easily preventable with solid positional play:

Goal 1: Fabbro makes a pass to Arvi and instead of continuing the play he just spectates and drifts towards the boards. Nylander sees this and gets out of the zone super quickly for the breakaway. I know Fabbro is a rookie but still.

Goal 2: Weber realizes I guess is camped in front gives a half-assed effort to move him and then just decides to let him stand there. Unsurprisingly the puck gets in front and they score.

Goal 3: Both Hamhuis and Ekholm drop below the goal line and neither one manages to win the puck which gives Kerfoot a wide open lane to the net. Our forwards all collapse down and Jarnkrok just floats in no mans land for no reason which leaves Sandin wide open to score.

Goal 4: While the PK is technically over we are still on it while Bonino tries to get into the play. Granlund overcommits on the puck which leaves a lane for Spezza to skate it down. Hamhuis then gets himself stuck in no mans land trying to block the shot effectively screening Rinne. Through all this we just let a leafs player stand directly in front of the net without even really looking at him.

 

[triggrman]

Goal 1, Ekholm should be the safe man, especially with Fabbro skating with the puck. Asking a rookie to make a defensive position move while he's leading the offense is a bit much.

 

[Predsanddead24]

Goal 1, Ekholm should be the safe man, especially with Fabbro skating with the puck. Asking a rookie to make a defensive position move while he's leading the offense is a bit much.

Yeah you're right watching it again that Ekholm should have covered for him knowing the situation. Really both guys just sat flat footed on the blue line instead of keeping an eye on Nylander who got the jump on both of them. Also, if Arvidsson were able to one time that puck instead of double clutching it we may have had a goal instead of having it go the other way.

 

[Scoresberg]

What's driving me crazy about this team's offensive play lately, and this was actually covered by Mason in last night's broadcast, is the ability to get to loose pucks around the crease. Especially, last night when it seemed like Andersen was spitting everything right in front, we still had no presence there.

Like, we seem to get scoring chances but they're mostly just one and done when the fact of the matter in this league is that a huge amount of goals in fact come from those second opportunities and in front of the net.

Also, in the 3rd goal Ekholm crashed into Rinne and drove him off the blue paint which led to Sandin having a wide-open net. And the 2nd goal bounced off of Weber's skate. The only goal I'm even considering putting on Rinne is the 4th one, but the game was pretty much over there already so.

 

[Kat Predator]

What's driving me crazy about this team's offensive play lately, and this was actually covered by Mason in last night's broadcast, is the ability to get to loose pucks around the crease. Especially, last night when it seemed like Andersen was spitting everything right in front, we still had no presence there.

Like, we seem to get scoring chances but they're mostly just one and done when the fact of the matter in this league is that a huge amount of goals in fact come from those second opportunities and in front of the net.

Also, in the 3rd goal Ekholm crashed into Rinne and drove him off the blue paint which led to Sandin having a wide-open net. And the 2nd goal bounced off of Weber's skate. The only goal I'm even considering putting on Rinne is the 4th one, but the game was pretty much over there already so.

This is the most frustrating thing about our centers. Bonino is the only one who will position himself in front of the net fairly frequently, and it pays off with him collecting goals.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

This is the most frustrating thing about our centers. Bonino is the only one who will position himself in front of the net fairly frequently, and it pays off with him collecting goals.

That's the secret behind the whole group of Grimaldi, Bonino, and Smith. They still play hockey. Grimaldi is tiny but will drive the net. It isn't always successful, but at least he's trying to do the things that sometimes pay off with goals. Bonino is not a physical guy in general, not big or fast, but he goes where he needs to. Smith works the boards and corners the way he always has. They aren't the 3 most talented guys on the team, but when we reel off our lists of disappointments and criticisms, they are always left off the list, they're the exceptions.

Is it coincidental that they have a combined total of 1 more season left on their contracts, I wonder?

 

[Kat Predator]

That's the secret behind the whole group of Grimaldi, Bonino, and Smith. They still play hockey. Grimaldi is tiny but will drive the net. It isn't always successful, but at least he's trying to do the things that sometimes pay off with goals. Bonino is not a physical guy in general, not big or fast, but he goes where he needs to. Smith works the boards and corners the way he always has. They aren't the 3 most talented guys on the team, but when we reel off our lists of disappointments and criticisms, they are always left off the list, they're the exceptions.

Is it coincidental that they have a combined total of 1 more season left on their contracts, I wonder?

I don't think they are just playing for a contract, no. Smith's game is uncomplicated. He has an On/Off switch, and gives 100% when he's On. I think when any of these three decide to rest on their draft pedigree and big contract, they'll very quickly be done in the NHL.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Haven't been on here to discuss the last game but I want to get my two cents in before we move on to the game tonight.

Goal 1: Though you could say that Fabbro needs to be more aware and cover the middle of the ice immediately after his pass that is Ekholm's responsibility. Fabbro should be confident that when he has the puck on the point against the wall his partner is covering the middle of the ice and I wouldn't expect him to be worrying about that. This is a holdover from Lavi's coaching and more times than not it worked out fine when Pekka was playing well and stopping pucks but that is not the case this year and Hynes will need to modify this behavior.

Goal 2: Basically on Weber. He canT neutralize players with size and strength so he has to control their stick. On that play if he simply controls the stick there isn't a rebound shot, instead you see him turn away from his mark and look for the puck. You could give a little blame to Pekka because he doesn't know how to keep his knees together. There's a reason he has the nickname, 5 Hole Pekka.

Goal 3: There is a lot going on here that has been discussed above but the glaring issue with this play is that Johansen left his defensive responsibility and the puck went to that player for the easy open shot. If he stays out high in zone coverage and let the goalie, dmen and Watson battle for the puck in front of the net when that pass is made he would have been able to clear the zone easily and probably have an offensive chance on a 2v2 transition. This is the play that got Ryan benched and I'm glad it happened, hopefully it focused him in on his responsibilities and makes him a more effective player.

Goal 4: No real "fault" here just good PP movement and the extra man got the puck in a good scoring area. Shit like this happens when you're on the PK and the reason the saying "your goalie has to be your best penalty killer" and as we know Pekka has not been that this year.

In conclusion, there were some brainfarts and other plays that can and hopefully will be coached out of this team but they need better goalie play. I'm not blaming Pekka for this loss, it was a team loss, but stopping any one of the three goals that I gave him some culpability for would dramatically change the game.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

saros angle on that first goal was absolutely horrendous.

 

[Armourboy]

saros angle on that first goal was absolutely horrendous.

As was his puck handling on the Ovi goal. That was actually the 2nd time he did that but the first got bailed out. He's not holding something right.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Yeah, that first goal is one that has to be saved. It's the classic "an NHL goalie is going to stop an unscreened shot from there" type situation. Weber did a good job catching him an forcing a shot from the top of the circle.

Do we bag on him for that gaffe on the second goal? That stuff happens a lot.?.?

Obviously, the third goal isn't his problem.

The forth goal is also a mess with that horrible clearing attempt.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

skip to 2:02

i mean i don't think i can state enough how bad that angle is. he needs to watch some film. or a new goalie coach. probably both.

 

[Legionnaire11]

skip to 2:02

i mean i don't think i can state enough how bad that angle is. he needs to watch some film. or a new goalie coach. probably both.

I would love to know the dynamic of coaching Rinne and Saros. You couldn't even try to have them do the same things in the same way.

I also would love to know if Saros watches film from someone smaller like Halak to learn what he's done to be successful.

 

[token grinder]

There is so only so much film you can watch of yourself. These guys know how to play the position. It is not panicking, which is what I see Saros doing a little bit. Game is too fast when he gets uncomfortable. That is what you saw with Ovechkin's goal. I think he sometimes overreads plays because in his head he is small and using quickness to outthink the play in front of him. He overpushed and lost where he was on the ice in regard to his crease because he was so focused on where the shot was coming from. I also tend to believe that goal also had to do with goal 1 where he had the correct position but Weber for the 2nd game in a row was the perfect screen for the opponent. Saros knows this, if happened to him and he wasn't allowing it again and made sure he saw the puck initially. Over-thought it, over-played it, red light goes off behind him. Goalie coach really should just take Saros to the movies before the next game and tell him to chill and relax. React to the play a little more rather than trying to outsmart the opposing team.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

A few things that I see over the last two games that are different since the coaching change. None of these things have fully taken hold and become natural instinct for the players yet but you can see the transition happening.

• The players are starting to settle into their roles in the defensive zone (aside from Josi) and even on the backcheck there isn't as much chaos and confusion. Everyone goes to one of the "zones" and gets set up with an emphasis on "the house".
• As the team is exiting the Dzone they are in a tight 2-1-2 like the dots on dice with players behind the puck. Obviously not all the time but you can see the difference in the coaching philosophy.
• With this change in transitional philosophy there is always the option to drop the puck back to the Dmen and regroup rather than charge headlong into a neutral zone trap and give the puck away or be forced to dump the puck in the zone effectively giving away possession of the puck.
• On offense you can see more middle drives by players without the puck and more traffic in the opponents "house". They still have the bad habit of using the boards to pass the puck to the other side of the ice and unfortunately a number of those rim arounds are ending up outside the zone because guys aren't camped out on the walls any more.
• When a dman is rushing the puck you now see them doing it with speed to push the defense back then check up so the forwards can drive through and create confusion down low and really make the opponent collapse toward their goal. This confusion and collapse allows for more down low puck control for the forwards and potentially more low to high movement to get the opponent stretched out and out of position.
• Because of that we're also seeing more room for the Dmen to push down closer to the goal in the offensive zone. Shooting from 15-20 feet into the zone on a low to high play will always be better than a shot from the blueline. There isn't as much time for the D and goalie to react.
• Breaking the habit of standing around on the PP is proving hard but when they move the puck quickly they are seeing results.
• The PK is sooooooo much better, sure there was some bad luck and odd plays last night but holding Ovechkin shot less on Wednesday was a huge difference from what they were doing in the other system.
• Pekka and Saros are still struggling. No matter how good this team starts playing in the Dzone if they don't improve the Preds will have to score 3-4ish goals most nights to be able to win.

 

[Kat Predator]

• The PK is sooooooo much better, sure there was some bad luck and odd plays last night but holding Ovechkin shot less on Wednesday was a huge difference from what they were doing in the other system.

One obvious difference is they've simply put other players out there. Turris and Granlund in particular are seeing time on the PK. It seems like that has gotten them more into the flow of the game and helped their confidence in the O zone as well. Turris in particular has gone from healthy scratch and a forgotten 4th line spare part role, to playing on the PK, driving the PP from the half wall, centering between Arvidsson and Forsberg, and generally rising to the challenge.