GDT: WWE Royal Rumble (28th January 2018) - Double Value!

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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It was a different time back then. There were moments when they had good matches, but they were very often the exception. The ceiling back then for the women was just above the floor in terms of the expectations, and they so rarely were given the time back then. If they came up with a 2 1/2-Star match back then, that was really good, something to be proud of. Now, it’s rather underwhelming as it would be for anyone.

The match I always think back to is WrestleMania XIX. That's a 15-20 minute story that's stuffed into a tight 7. You can give the best wrestlers that short of time and you won't get much better than Jazz, Trish Stratus, and Victoria that night.

It's the difference between giving CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio 15 minutes at Capitol Punishment and just 7 minutes at WrestleMania. The former will steal the night and the latter will be difficult to even rate relative to other matches. And 7 minutes for the Women's Championship match would have been a good night!

Has there been a great match from the division lately that clocks in under 7-8 minutes? It's apples and oranges.
 
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Natey

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Aug 2, 2005
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And Jazz and Lita and Stephanie McMahon. And those six? Guess who their best matches were with? Trish Stratus. Every single one of them. I mean, who didn't have their best match against Trish Stratus from that era? Probably just Melina (Backlash 2007 vs. Mickie James).
I bet that wouldn't have to do with Trish being the only woman to get time......

She was over. She was a decent worker in her prime. That's not for argument. But she's not great in the ring (she was great for her time, I guess you could argue because there was not much else to pick from). She's not Molly Holly. She's not Bayley. She's not Charlotte. She's not Becky Lynch. She's not Kairi Sane, Io Shirai, or Mayu Iwatani. She's just not.

That's like calling Zack Ryder a great worker during ECW because it was slim pickings after Christian and Punk.
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
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I bet that wouldn't have to do with Trish being the only woman to get time......

You say that like Trish Stratus was given time.

Molly Holly vs. Victoria went 7 minutes at WrestleMania XX. Tell me, why isn't it as celebrated as, what, at least a half-dozen Trish Stratus matches that went the same length?
 

Natey

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Aug 2, 2005
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You say that like Trish Stratus was given time.

Molly Holly vs. Victoria went 7 minutes at WrestleMania XX. Tell me, why isn't it as celebrated as, what, at least a half-dozen Trish Stratus matches that went the same length?
Lol no it didn't. It didn't even last 5 minutes.

Wikipedia isn't the best source. ;)

As for the 4+ minutes they had, they were trying to convey the story of the post match angle which is what Wrestlemania is about.
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Hockeytown, MI
Lol no it didn't. It didn't even last 5 minutes.

Wikipedia isn't the best source. ;)

As for the 4+ minutes they had, they were trying to convey the story of the post match angle which is what Wrestlemania is about.

And naturally, Trish Stratus accomplished more in 30 seconds that night than an entire head-shaving segment, because conveying the story as you say is basically her bread and butter.

It's that combination of what you described: the most charismatic wrestler slid into the "good" category, which is about the most valuable cog you can find in wrestling.

Integrating character performance into the wrestling itself is why the NXT women's division worked, why the Women's Revolution didn't until Charlotte and Sasha Banks were paired off, and why Trish Stratus always ascended back to the top of her division in the early-2000s. Victoria after the Trish Stratus angle reminds me of Bayley post-NXT - both know how to do the moves, but it comes across as neither knowing why or when anymore.

So this whole thing about Trish Stratus only having good matches because she's against "some of the best women's workers in US history" is probably the only real disagreement I have on your point of view. It's not like she's in the ring with Sara Del Rey, Cheerleader Melissa, MsChif, or Mercedes Martinez who are having great matches in any combination of two names; she's in the same division with six other wrestlers who just happen to have their best matches and best character work with Trish Stratus specifically. And that's the part that I can't ignore: the common denominator.

Trish Stratus would rise to the level of the division she's in. Took me all of five seconds of her interaction with Sasha Banks to know that one.
 
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Natey

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Aug 2, 2005
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And naturally, Trish Stratus accomplished more in 30 seconds that night than an entire head-shaving segment, because conveying the story as you say is basically her bread and butter.

It's that combination of what you described: the most charismatic wrestler slid into the "good" category, which is about the most valuable cog you can find in wrestling.

Integrating character performance into the wrestling itself is why the NXT women's division worked, why the Women's Revolution didn't until Charlotte and Sasha Banks were paired off, and why Trish Stratus always ascended back to the top of her division in the early-2000s. Victoria after the Trish Stratus angle reminds me of Bayley post-NXT - both know how to do the moves, but it comes across as neither knowing why or when anymore.

So this whole thing about Trish Stratus only having good matches because she's against "some of the best women's workers in US history" is probably the only real disagreement I have on your point of view. It's not like she's in the ring with Sara Del Rey, Cheerleader Melissa, MsChif, or Mercedes Martinez who are having great matches in any combination of two names; she's in the same division with six other wrestlers who just happen to have their best matches and best character work with Trish Stratus specifically. And that's the part that I can't ignore: the common denominator.

Trish Stratus would rise to the level of the division she's in. Took me all of five seconds of her interaction with Sasha Banks to know that one.
Clearly you're a big Trish mark. And that's fine. This whole conversation started about ring work and you're trying to bring in so much more. And if you're bringing in all that other stuff, Nikki and Brie become better too because they had decent to good character work, and the reactions to go with it.

Maybe not clearly, but I felt it was obvious I was talking mainstream, hence bringing up the Bomb Angels. Of course there are better indy workers.

But you can ignore that most women didn't get time that Trish does. How do others get a chance when they're working 5 minutes MAX. Not just matches, but build up and the whole she-bang.

I don't blame WWE. They're about money and ringwork was not all that important during that era. Trish made money.

And this is getting crazy - I don't think Trish is bad. She's not. Not even close. But if you're a ring work fan, you're never picking Trish. And if you do, you're picking inferior wrestling.

Saying Bayley doesn't know how to work is crazy. She's the best storyteller in WWE, women wise. She's been used awfully on the main roster... but so have most of the women.

Sasha knows how to almost kill herself every night but survive, so there's that.

Bayley, Charlotte, Asuka, Kairi and Becky are the best in WWE. Riott and LeRae are great too. Tessa would be amazing if signed. Sasha isn't bad (she's really very good, also good are Abbey Laith, Sarah Logan, and Nikki Cross), but I wouldn't be surprised if she paralyzes herself.

Iwatani and Shirai are the best female wrestlers in the world.
 

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