Would you trade Marchand for any of these players?

[67Leafs67]

says a Leaf's fan. No thanks. I would keep Brad and thankfully I believe the B's management agrees. You have seen his cap hit right ???. The chemistry he has on his line AND team is unreal. How dull it would be without Brad.

Ah yes. Forgot to factor in dullness. Goodness knows how dull it would be watching Eichel centering DeBrusk & Pastrnak for a dozen years, half of which Marchand would be retired for. What the hell would Bruins fans have to cheer for without somebody running around licking people, and some scrub like Eichel leading the charge. Can't imagine it. Yup, you're right, not worth it.

 

[Trap Jesus]

lol yes, because your eye test is the paramount standard of all objective analysis. Silly me for forgetting.

Most of us on here watch every game. Stats mean nothing in the context of comparing Bruins players to each other if you watch all the games, it's just a tool that you can use to compare different teams and players if you don't have enough experience with the eye test. So much of their damage is done on the PP or in Bergeron/Marchand's case the PK anyways.

We've watched those 3 dominate for 3 and a half years now and we've watched the Bergeron-Marchand duo dominate for the last 10. We've seen the times when they shift Pasta down or the times when they deal with injuries. It always comes back to putting those 3 together for a reason.

 

[67Leafs67]

You more than anyone should know how destructive that line is. That line absolutely speed bags your team on a seemingly nightly basis.

Of course they are a great line. However, any combination of two of those players + another good/elite player makes for a 'destructive line', and there are dozens of other lines who do just as much damage every single season all around the league. I'm not implying at all that it isn't an elite combination, I'm just saying, you don't turn down some of these swaps solely based on the chemistry of that line. That is ludicrous.

 

[Sheppy]

Of course they are a great line. However, any combination of two of those players + another good/elite player makes for a 'destructive line', and there are dozens of other lines who do just as much damage every single season all around the league. I'm not implying at all that it isn't an elite combination, I'm just saying, you don't turn down some of these swaps solely based on the chemistry of that line. That is ludicrous.

"Dozens"

List them. I don't think I can name two, but hell... if you can list dozens, all the power to you.

 

[67Leafs67]

"Dozens"

List them. I don't think I can name two, but hell... if you can list dozens, all the power to you.

NHL Lines Advanced Stats
Knock yourself out.

 

[Ladyfan]

Of course they are a great line. However, any combination of two of those players + another good/elite player makes for a 'destructive line', and there are dozens of other lines who do just as much damage every single season all around the league. I'm not implying at all that it isn't an elite combination, I'm just saying, you don't turn down some of these swaps solely based on the chemistry of that line. That is ludicrous.

IMO you under value chemistry. It is what won the B's the cup in 2011.

Maybe you should go back to your Leaf's board and try and fix your team. Most here are happy with our B's .

 

[Sheppy]

NHL Lines Advanced Stats
Knock yourself out.

I don't get how a 3rd/4th line outproduces Bergeron, Pastrnak and Marchand.

 

[Trap Jesus]

NHL Lines Advanced Stats
Knock yourself out.

Interesting. DeBrusk-Krejci-Kuhlman is objectively better than Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak. Who knew?

And Heinen-JFK-Donato was better than Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak last year too. Why didn't we get rid of these guys and build around the 3 that are all no longer here?

 

[Sheppy]

I'm feeling really educated.

Trade Bergeron, Marchand and Pastrnak right now.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

Interesting. DeBrusk-Krejci-Kuhlman is objectively better than Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak. Who knew?

And Heinen-JFK-Donato was better than Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak last year too. Why didn't we get rid of these guys and build around the 3 that are all no longer here?

This guy obviously knows more about our team than we do. We should shut up, listen and thank him for showing us all how ignorant we are.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

I'm feeling really educated.

Trade Bergeron, Marchand and Pastrnak right now.

They’re obviously garbage, unlike the Leafs roster which is the greatest assemblage of talent of all time. Don’t believe me? Do the f***ing math!

 

[missingchicklet]

but what if someone offered you Draisaitl right now, would you really turn it down?

I would turn it down. The Bs do not need to lose a top-flight scoring winger. They already are in need of a top-six scoring winger in addition to what is here. Marchy brings more to this core based on team needs than Drai. Marchy has shown no signs of slowing down any time soon. This is not a Lucic situation. The other reasons I would not do it are outlined in my original post on the matter. Also, the whole chemistry thing is absolutely important IMO.

 

[67Leafs67]

I don't get how a 3rd/4th line outproduces Bergeron, Pastrnak and Marchand.

I don't know if you just don't know how to use the tool...or if you know that little about other team's depth charts that you think these are third & fourth lines. Or maybe goals are just too advanced a stat for you?

Let's take a look at the last full NHL season, 2018-19, where we got a good, long look at Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak, a full 462.7 minutes in fact. Thirteen different lines scored more goals than they did (which was 26, or 3.37/60 minutes). Thirty different lines (w/a minimum 200 TOI) scored more goals per 60 minutes together. When you factor in goals against, the Bruins line outscored their opponents by 0.39 goals/60 minutes of ice-time together, and total of 26-23 over the course of the season. Some top two lines that did better in 200+ minutes:
1. Kreider - Zibanejad - Zuccarello --> +2.96 G/60
2. Killorn - Cirelli - Miller --> +2.81 G/60
3. Guentzel - Crosby - Simon --> +2.65 G/60
4. Schenn - O'Reilly - Tarasenko --> +2.61 G/60
5. Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik --> +2.11 G/60
6. Benn - Seguin - Radulov --> +2.09 G/60
7. Hall - Hischier - Palmieri --> +2.02 G/60
8. Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen --> +2.02 G/60
9. Ferland - Aho - Teravainen --> +2.01 G/60
10. Tatar - Danault - Gallagher --> +1.87 G/60
11. Skinner - Eichel - Pominville --> +1.70 G/60
12. Guentzel - Crosby - Rust --> +1.69 G/60
13. Vrana - Backstrom - Oshie --> +1.55 G/60
14. Caggiula - Toews - Kane --> +1.52 G/60
15. Ovechkin - Backstrom - Oshie --> +1.49 G/60
16. Huberdeau - Barkov - Dadonov --> +1.43 G/60
17. Ehlers - Scheifele - Wheeler --> +1.41 G/60
18. Niederreiter - Aho - Williams --> +1.34 G/60
19. Johnson - Point - Kucherov --> 1.30 G/60
20. Giroux - Couturier - Konecny --> +1.24 G/60
21. Landeskog - MacKinnon - Rantanen --> +1.23 G/60
22. Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm --> +1.13 G/60
23. Ovechkin - Kuznetsov - Wilson --> +1.12 G/60
24. Panarin - Dubois - Atkinson --> +1.05 G/60
25. Hyman - Tavares - Marner --> +1.04 G/60
26. Tkachuk - White - Stone --> +1.03 G/60
27. Rieder - Draisaitl - Chiasson --> +0.89 G/60
28. Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen --> +0.77 G/60
29. Draisaitl - McDavid - Kassian --> +0.73 G/60
30. Lee - Nelson - Eberle --> 0.71 G/60
31. Zucker - Staal - Granlund --> +0.69 G/60
32. Leivo - Pettersson - Boeser --> +0.45 G/60
33. Kane - Hertl - Donskoi --> +0.41 G/60
34. Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak --> +0.39 G/60

 

[Trap Jesus]

I don't know if you just don't know how to use the tool...or if you know that little about other team's depth charts that you think these are third & fourth lines. Or maybe goals are just too advanced a stat for you?

Let's take a look at the last full NHL season, 2018-19, where we got a good, long look at Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak, a full 462.7 minutes in fact. Thirteen different lines scored more goals than they did (which was 26, or 3.37/60 minutes). Thirty different lines (w/a minimum 200 TOI) scored more goals per 60 minutes together. When you factor in goals against, the Bruins line outscored their opponents by 0.39 goals/60 minutes of ice-time together, and total of 26-23 over the course of the season. Some top two lines that did better in 200+ minutes:
1. Kreider - Zibanejad - Zuccarello --> +2.96 G/60
2. Killorn - Cirelli - Miller --> +2.81 G/60
3. Guentzel - Crosby - Simon --> +2.65 G/60
4. Schenn - O'Reilly - Tarasenko --> +2.61 G/60
5. Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik --> +2.11 G/60
6. Benn - Seguin - Radulov --> +2.09 G/60
7. Hall - Hischier - Palmieri --> +2.02 G/60
8. Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen --> +2.02 G/60
9. Ferland - Aho - Teravainen --> +2.01 G/60
10. Tatar - Danault - Gallagher --> +1.87 G/60
11. Skinner - Eichel - Pominville --> +1.70 G/60
12. Guentzel - Crosby - Rust --> +1.69 G/60
13. Vrana - Backstrom - Oshie --> +1.55 G/60
14. Caggiula - Toews - Kane --> +1.52 G/60
15. Ovechkin - Backstrom - Oshie --> +1.49 G/60
16. Huberdeau - Barkov - Dadonov --> +1.43 G/60
17. Ehlers - Scheifele - Wheeler --> +1.41 G/60
18. Niederreiter - Aho - Williams --> +1.34 G/60
19. Johnson - Point - Kucherov --> 1.30 G/60
20. Giroux - Couturier - Konecny --> +1.24 G/60
21. Landeskog - MacKinnon - Rantanen --> +1.23 G/60
22. Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm --> +1.13 G/60
23. Ovechkin - Kuznetsov - Wilson --> +1.12 G/60
24. Panarin - Dubois - Atkinson --> +1.05 G/60
25. Hyman - Tavares - Marner --> +1.04 G/60
26. Tkachuk - White - Stone --> +1.03 G/60
27. Rieder - Draisaitl - Chiasson --> +0.89 G/60
28. Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen --> +0.77 G/60
29. Draisaitl - McDavid - Kassian --> +0.73 G/60
30. Lee - Nelson - Eberle --> 0.71 G/60
31. Zucker - Staal - Granlund --> +0.69 G/60
32. Leivo - Pettersson - Boeser --> +0.45 G/60
33. Kane - Hertl - Donskoi --> +0.41 G/60
34. Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak --> +0.39 G/60

Why choose 2018/19 when you can also choose 2016/17, 2017/18 or 2019/20? Obviously you did that because of the goal rates being way worse that year, but it's also the year they played the least together considering injuries.

Which of these other lines are the focal point of two of the best PP and PK units in the league?

 

[67Leafs67]

Why choose 2018/19 when you can also choose 2016/17, 2017/18 or 2019/20? Obviously you did that because of the goal rates being way worse that year, but it's also the year they played the least together considering injuries.

Which of these other lines are the focal point of two of the best PP and PK units in the league?

Sure, let's do this season. Their +0.64 G/60 falls behind a number of other lines.
1. Pacioretty/Stephenson/Stone
2. Guentzel/Malkin/Rust
3. Tatar/Danault/Gallagher
4. Pacioretty/Stastny/Stone
5. Stamkos/Point/Kucherov
6. Palat/Point/Kucherov
7. Landeskog/MacKinnon/Rantanen
8. Marchesseault/Karlsson/Smith
9. Panarin/Strome/Fast
10. Teravainen/Aho/Svechnikov
11. Tkachuk/Backlund/Mangiapane
12. Benn/Seguin/Radulov
13. Forsberg/Duchene/Granlund
14. Giroux/Couturier/Voracek
15. Miller/Pettersson/Boeser

Still not in the top dozen, which I believe was your original issue with what I said? Obviously I chose 2018/19, because it illustrates my point better, and it was an actual full season, not one missing a dozen games from every team. Neither of those things makes the point not true though.

 

[Sheppy]

I don't know if you just don't know how to use the tool...or if you know that little about other team's depth charts that you think these are third & fourth lines. Or maybe goals are just too advanced a stat for you?

Let's take a look at the last full NHL season, 2018-19, where we got a good, long look at Marchand/Bergeron/Pastrnak, a full 462.7 minutes in fact. Thirteen different lines scored more goals than they did (which was 26, or 3.37/60 minutes). Thirty different lines (w/a minimum 200 TOI) scored more goals per 60 minutes together. When you factor in goals against, the Bruins line outscored their opponents by 0.39 goals/60 minutes of ice-time together, and total of 26-23 over the course of the season. Some top two lines that did better in 200+ minutes:
1. Kreider - Zibanejad - Zuccarello --> +2.96 G/60
2. Killorn - Cirelli - Miller --> +2.81 G/60
3. Guentzel - Crosby - Simon --> +2.65 G/60
4. Schenn - O'Reilly - Tarasenko --> +2.61 G/60
5. Tkachuk - Backlund - Frolik --> +2.11 G/60
6. Benn - Seguin - Radulov --> +2.09 G/60
7. Hall - Hischier - Palmieri --> +2.02 G/60
8. Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen --> +2.02 G/60
9. Ferland - Aho - Teravainen --> +2.01 G/60
10. Tatar - Danault - Gallagher --> +1.87 G/60
11. Skinner - Eichel - Pominville --> +1.70 G/60
12. Guentzel - Crosby - Rust --> +1.69 G/60
13. Vrana - Backstrom - Oshie --> +1.55 G/60
14. Caggiula - Toews - Kane --> +1.52 G/60
15. Ovechkin - Backstrom - Oshie --> +1.49 G/60
16. Huberdeau - Barkov - Dadonov --> +1.43 G/60
17. Ehlers - Scheifele - Wheeler --> +1.41 G/60
18. Niederreiter - Aho - Williams --> +1.34 G/60
19. Johnson - Point - Kucherov --> 1.30 G/60
20. Giroux - Couturier - Konecny --> +1.24 G/60
21. Landeskog - MacKinnon - Rantanen --> +1.23 G/60
22. Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm --> +1.13 G/60
23. Ovechkin - Kuznetsov - Wilson --> +1.12 G/60
24. Panarin - Dubois - Atkinson --> +1.05 G/60
25. Hyman - Tavares - Marner --> +1.04 G/60
26. Tkachuk - White - Stone --> +1.03 G/60
27. Rieder - Draisaitl - Chiasson --> +0.89 G/60
28. Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen --> +0.77 G/60
29. Draisaitl - McDavid - Kassian --> +0.73 G/60
30. Lee - Nelson - Eberle --> 0.71 G/60
31. Zucker - Staal - Granlund --> +0.69 G/60
32. Leivo - Pettersson - Boeser --> +0.45 G/60
33. Kane - Hertl - Donskoi --> +0.41 G/60
34. Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak --> +0.39 G/60

How many of those lines would you take over Marchand, Bergeron and Pastrnak?

Also, I admit. I don’t gargle on “Advanced stats” like a lot of people do. However if you google “best line in NHL” you’re going to see Marchand, Bergeron and Pastrnak on those lists. Players, GMs, writers all say it.

I should probably venture on the Leafs board and say that their best line is no match for a line that “dozens” are better than in Marchand, Bergeron and Pastrnak.

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

Sure, let's do this season. Their +0.64 G/60 falls behind a number of other lines.
1. Pacioretty/Stephenson/Stone
2. Guentzel/Malkin/Rust
3. Tatar/Danault/Gallagher
4. Pacioretty/Stastny/Stone
5. Stamkos/Point/Kucherov
6. Palat/Point/Kucherov
7. Landeskog/MacKinnon/Rantanen
8. Marchesseault/Karlsson/Smith
9. Panarin/Strome/Fast
10. Teravainen/Aho/Svechnikov
11. Tkachuk/Backlund/Mangiapane
12. Benn/Seguin/Radulov
13. Forsberg/Duchene/Granlund
14. Giroux/Couturier/Voracek
15. Miller/Pettersson/Boeser

Still not in the top dozen, which I believe was your original issue with what I said? Obviously I chose 2018/19, because it illustrates my point better, and it was an actual full season, not one missing a dozen games from every team. Neither of those things makes the point not true though.

Damn. Maybe we can trade all three guys now and get a truly incredible group of players like Tatar/Danault/Gallagher

 

[Trap Jesus]

Sure, let's do this season. Their +0.64 G/60 falls behind a number of other lines.
1. Pacioretty/Stephenson/Stone
2. Guentzel/Malkin/Rust
3. Tatar/Danault/Gallagher
4. Pacioretty/Stastny/Stone
5. Stamkos/Point/Kucherov
6. Palat/Point/Kucherov
7. Landeskog/MacKinnon/Rantanen
8. Marchesseault/Karlsson/Smith
9. Panarin/Strome/Fast
10. Teravainen/Aho/Svechnikov
11. Tkachuk/Backlund/Mangiapane
12. Benn/Seguin/Radulov
13. Forsberg/Duchene/Granlund
14. Giroux/Couturier/Voracek
15. Miller/Pettersson/Boeser

Still not in the top dozen, which I believe was your original issue with what I said? Obviously I chose 2018/19, because it illustrates my point better, and it was an actual full season, not one missing a dozen games from every team. Neither of those things makes the point not true though.

You chose one with the fewest minutes played, that's as deceptive as you can get.

Why are you making this so convoluted? The fewer minutes played the wilder the goals/60 numbers will be. The Bergeron line played together more than any line except Iafallo-Kopitar-Brown, and they had an insane 66% GF%. They played together 200 more minutes than a line like Panarin-Strome-Fast, who are a top 10 most frequent combo in the league. Your #1 line played a third of the amount of time together that the Bergeron line played together. That line is twice as close to playing 0 minutes in your arbitrary 200 minute cut-off than they are from the amount of time Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak spent together. You might as well open it up to lines that have played 1 second together.

 

[Ladyfan]

I'm feeling really educated.

Trade Bergeron, Marchand and Pastrnak right now.

Hey the Leaf's fan knows best !

 

[Lobster57]

Man, with such a TERRIBLE first line, it's very fortunate the B's drafted an amazing goalie in Rask. Also, it's a miracle they never traded him away, considering how inept they are at recognizing and developing hockey players. No wonder they haven't won a playoff round since GWB's first term


wait...

 

[Ladyfan]

They’re obviously garbage, unlike the Leafs roster which is the greatest assemblage of talent of all time. Don’t believe me? Do the f***ing math!

SO for a cap hit.....The Leaf's fan knows best. Lord knows that the Bergy/ Pasta/ Marchy line isn't worth what they are paid . How much does Toronto pay their top players ?

 

[PB37]

This board has been obsessed with Stamkos since the 2011 playoffs when he played with a broken nose. I've always thought he's been overrated. I wouldn't trade Marchand for him with equal contracts.

Panarin is a little trickier. I think he's better than Marchand but he's making nearly $6 million more.

I think it had more to do with him enjoying a beer after the game ( or was it after the series? ) at a local Boston bar with some Bruins fans and posing for a photo op with them.

I think Stamkos is the 2nd best goalscorer of his generation ( OV being 1st ). He's got a legit shot at hitting 600 goals while maintaining a PPG average when he hangs them up.

 

[PB37]

Overrated reason in my opinion. Chemistry and complimentary roles are important, but it isn't like that Bruins line is blowing every other line out of the water every season in terms of GF% or xGF%. Among lines with 200+ minutes this season they were 20th in xGF% and 11th in GF%. The season before they were 23rd in xGF% and 49th in GF%. The season before they were 28th in xGF% and 24th in GF%.

Marchand/Krejci/Pastrnak was ~10% better in xGF in 18-19, and ~20% in actual goals. Marchand/Bergeron /Heinen also did ~20% better in GF% and was only about 1% worse in xGF. Both of those samples were 120+ minutes. In the past, the Marchand/Bergeron combination has run some of the league's most successful lines with names like Seguin or Smith on the RW.

Marchand is a fantastic player who has built up great chemistry with both Bergeron & Pastrnak, but breaking up that line has worked fine in the past, and produced just as good, if not better, results. Not to mention, there are roughly twenty other lines that play 200+ minutes with each other that outperform this line every one of the last three seasons. It is a great line, but not special enough to warrant turning down some of these franchise level talents.

There's a reason why this line is often mentioned as the best in the league. You have a 100 point player on the LW, one of if not the best defensive center of all time at center who's closing in on 1000 points for his career, and the young man on the right wing who just won the Rocket and nearly hit 50 goals and 100 points at the ripe age of 24.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I think it had more to do with him enjoying a beer after the game ( or was it after the series? ) at a local Boston bar with some Bruins fans and posing for a photo op with them.

I think Stamkos is the 2nd best goalscorer of his generation ( OV being 1st ). He's got a legit shot at hitting 600 goals while maintaining a PPG average when he hangs them up.

Yeah that was after Game 7 when he broke his nose. I think that was associated with Barstool taking off.

 

[KrejciMVP]

I would turn it down. The Bs do not need to lose a top-flight scoring winger. They already are in need of a top-six scoring winger in addition to what is here. Marchy brings more to this core based on team needs than Drai. Marchy has shown no signs of slowing down any time soon. This is not a Lucic situation. The other reasons I would not do it are outlined in my original post on the matter. Also, the whole chemistry thing is absolutely important IMO.

I get you like Marchand, I do to, but there isn't a player besides Pasta on the Bruins that I wouldn't trade for him. Edmonton would not make that deal