Would you take Prime Lemieux, or Prime Crosby and Ovechkin

Who do you choose?


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Midnight Judges

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I think this is a pointless hypothetical because in a cap league Lemieux would be top dog and players would want to play with him. Also it’s not like he was known for his demands for insane contracts. Dude basically played for free for years.

Lemieux is not some net benefit in attracting players. He ran off two hall of famers in Jagr and Zubov. Sid and Ovie never remotely pulled any prima donna crap like that.
 
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nowhereman

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I’d argue anyone that is taking Sid / Ovi never watched Lemieux in his prime. He was Sid level thought processing with Ovechkin level goalscoring and size.

He would destroy this league.

Sakic, Jags, and Forsberg were in their primes in 00-01. I’d also say they are comparable talents to Sid and Ovi at their prime level. Lemieux dunked on them as a 35 year old who hadn’t played hockey in years.

Once again, this imaginative take that anyone is close to Lemieux besides Gretzky is just bizarre.
No one is saying they're close. The question is whether the difference between peak Crosby/OV and Lemieux is worth a 65-70 goal-scoring Ovechkin (who probably matches Lemieux in goalscoring) or an all-around beast in Crosby (who could probably top 130 points).

They're not close but they're closer than you think.
 
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Gurglesons

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No one is saying they're close. The question is whether the difference between peak Crosby/OV and Lemieux is worth a 65-70 goal-scoring Ovechkin (who probably matches Lemieux in goalscoring) or an all-around beast in Crosby (who could probably top 130 points).

They're not close but they're closer than you think.

since we are going of pregame stats that would make Lemieux a 94 goal 219 pt forward in his prime.
 

KoozNetsOff 92

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Prime Crosby in today's NHL is at least 140pts, OV is at least 130pts with 65+ goals (Drai paced for 125+pts the last 2 seasons and they are way better than him, so that's being conservative). Lemieux would be around 170pts. That's 270 vs 170. Lemieux will boost some scrubs #s, but Crosby has made a career out of doing that too. And 1 of these guys will be on the 2nd line drawing cupcake matchups so the gap in production will be even greater. Imagine prime OV not being the primary target for the opposition, we'd be looking at 70+ goals easy.
 

Gurglesons

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Prime Crosby in today's NHL is at least 140pts, OV is at least 130pts with 65+ goals (Drai paced for 125+pts the last 2 seasons and they are way better than him, so that's being conservative). Lemieux would be around 170pts. That's 270 vs 170. Lemieux will boost some scrubs #s, but Crosby has made a career out of doing that too. And 1 of these guys will be on the 2nd line drawing cupcake matchups so the gap in production will be even greater. Imagine prime OV not being the primary target for the opposition, we'd be looking at 70+ goals easy.

I imagine prime Ovechkin being disgruntled as f*** playing second fiddle.

Imagine the best one on one forward playing in a league where the only way to slow him down is removed and the defensemen he is going up against are largely midgets compared to what he dealt with his entire career.

I love Ovi and Sid. But Mario is one of the few players you can say was on another level in terms of on ice play. There has never been a player before or after Lemieux that could basically do whatever he wanted on the ice given his size and ability.

Sid and Ovi vs pretty much every other forward in history I’m taking. I think you probably even say over Gretzky given Wayne’s size in today’s league might be a negative. Today’s game though is specifically built for Mario to excel in.
 

nowhereman

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since we are going of pregame stats that would make Lemieux a 94 goal 219 pt forward in his prime.
Yes, if he was playing in 1992-93, when 6 players had over 130+ points and 31 players had over 90+ points (a rookie Teemu Selanne had 76 goals that year). If you adjust those numbers, those 219 points come in at around 160ish points. At that point, his goal totals are probably comparable to OV and his point totals are only 20-30 more than Crosby. That's not a large enough margin for me to pass up watching Crosby feed peak OV on the powerplay.

You have to use context with your numbers or else this debate is useless, since Lemieux played in the most offensive era in the history of the game and his numbers are skewed. Mario liked to complain about the state of the league back then but it's a hell of a lot worse for offensive players these days, as the overall quality of play and competition has increased since the high-flying 80s/90s. Superstars are also much more strictly coached today, as systems play and defensive awareness usually overrules offensive creativity.

Lemieux actually came along at the perfect time.
 
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pcruz

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Not in the games they played together he wasn't:

NHL Stats

And every time Lemieux's PPG started going down, he would simply quit.

I assume it had nothing at all to do with needing back surgeries, and that pesky cancer stuff. It was all natural declining numbers that made him quit in shame.
 

Gurglesons

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Yes, if he was playing in 1992-93, when 6 players had over 130+ points and 31 players had over 90+ points (a rookie Teemu Selanne had 76 goals that year). If you adjust those numbers, those 219 points come in at around 160ish points. At that point, his goal totals are probably comparable to OV and his point totals are only 20-30 more than Crosby. That's not a large enough margin for me to pass up watching Crosby feed peak OV on the powerplay.

You have to use context with your numbers or else this debate is useless, since Lemieux played in the most offensive era in the history of the game and his numbers are skewed. Mario liked to complain about the state of the league back then but it's a hell of a lot worse for offensive players these days, as the overall quality of play and competition has increased since the high-flying 80s/90s. Superstars are also much more strictly coached today, as systems play usually overrules offensive creativity.

Lemieux actually came along at the perfect time.

Lemieux also put up 150 pt pace in 00-01 as a 35 year old and nearly a PPG pace in 05-06 as a 40 year old.

Lemieux would be putting up ridiculous numbers in today’s league in his prime.

Your last sentence makes me question if you ever watched Lemieux. He did not come around in the perfect time for his game. He was significantly limited due to the chippy nature of the game in his era.
 

Name Nameless

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Yeah, the problem here, is you will get the cap to sign a UFA for Ovechkin, after having upgraded from Crosby to Lemieux. So, it's like "would you have Lemieux and some guy like Taylor Hall, or Crosby and Ovechkin"?
 

Midnight Judges

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I imagine prime Ovechkin being disgruntled as f*** playing second fiddle.

If it's peak Ovie, Crosby would be the one playing second fiddle.

Regardless, Ovechkin has never been disgruntled in his entire career. He's always been a team guy even when Adam Oates, Dale Hunter, and Bruce Boudreau were making questionable decisions. There is no record of him ever not getting along with anyone in the organization. I think after 16 years he deserves some credit for that.
 

Gurglesons

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If it's peak Ovie, Crosby would be the one playing second fiddle.

Regardless, Ovechkin has never been disgruntled in his entire career. He's always been a team guy even when Adam Oates, Dale Hunter, and Bruce Boudreau were making questionable decisions. There is no record of him ever not getting along with anyone in the organization. I think after 16 years he deserves some credit for that.

cool. Regardless, Sid and Ovie do not seem like this slam dunk fit as a leadership team.
 

JasonRoseEh

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I’d argue anyone that is taking Sid / Ovi never watched Lemieux in his prime. He was Sid level thought processing with Ovechkin level goalscoring and size.

He would destroy this league.

Sakic, Jags, and Forsberg were in their primes in 00-01. I’d also say they are comparable talents to Sid and Ovi at their prime level. Lemieux dunked on them as a 35 year old who hadn’t played hockey in years.

Once again, this imaginative take that anyone is close to Lemieux besides Gretzky is just bizarre.
I'd argue you live in nostalgia land with this type of take because it's nonsense. Crosby and Ovechkin in their primes would see their stats balloon and all 3 players you mentioned other than Jagr aren't near prime Crosby and Ovechkin.

It's no doubt Lemieux is the best player but if you think it's heads and shoulders better than either or, again, banana land.
 
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Gurglesons

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I'd argue you live in nostalgia land with this type of take because it's nonsense. Crosby and Ovechkin in their primes would see their stats balloon and all 3 players you mentioned other than Jagr aren't near prime Crosby and Ovechkin.

It's no doubt Lemieux is the best player but if you think it's heads and shoulders better than either or, again, banana land.

How are prime Sakic and Forsberg not close to Sid and Ovechkin?

Why are Sid and Ovie seeing their stats balloon exactly?

Sid and Ovechkin have wonderful primes. But they are not anything special. Their longevity in terms of Sid’s championships and ability to dominate and Ovie’s sheer ability to score goals over his career are what makes them top ten all time players, not their primes.
 

Midnight Judges

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cool. Regardless, Sid and Ovie do not seem like this slam dunk fit as a leadership team.

Lemieux's leadership is a huge negative. He's a quitter, has a huge ego, and will gladly force management to trade away valuable players if he thinks it pads his stats.

Ovie and Sid are 10x the leaders Mario ever was. There is simply no basis to think they wouldn't be great together. They are both beloved by their teammates as far as I know. Mario not so much.
 

Gurglesons

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Lemieux's leadership is a huge negative. He's a quitter, has a huge ego, and will gladly force management to trade away valuable players if he thinks it pads his stats.

Ovie and Sid are 10x the leaders Mario ever was. There is simply no basis to think they wouldn't be great together. They are both beloved by their teammates as far as I know. Mario not so much.

Man, I thought your takes on Sid were awful. Now you’re really proving yourself to be a sad sack Caps fan.
 

ForsbergForever

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Lemieux's leadership is a huge negative. He's a quitter, has a huge ego, and will gladly force management to trade away valuable players if he thinks it pads his stats.

Ovie and Sid are 10x the leaders Mario ever was. There is simply no basis to think they wouldn't be great together. They are both beloved by their teammates as far as I know. Mario not so much.

I'm really having a hard time putting Ovechkin and "leadership" in the same sentence. All-time great goal-scorer yes, but he is hardly among the pantheon of greatest team captains...
 

JasonRoseEh

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How are prime Sakic and Forsberg not close to Sid and Ovechkin?

Why are Sid and Ovie seeing their stats balloon exactly?

Sid and Ovechkin have wonderful primes. But they are not anything special. Their longevity in terms of Sid’s championships and ability to dominate and Ovie’s sheer ability to score goals over his career are what makes them top ten all time players, not their primes.
Dude just stop it. Forsberg and Sakic don't have nearly the accolades or peaks, this isn't even arguable and if you're trying to tell me the league was just better then than it is now well el oh el.

Lemieux was a quitter and a relative mental midget who didn't win anything without Jagr, saying you'd take Mario as great as he was, over both Crosby and Ovechkin in their primes is crazy talk.
 

Gurglesons

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Dude just stop it. Forsberg and Sakic don't have nearly the accolades or peaks, this isn't even arguable and if you're trying to tell me the league was just better then than it is now well el oh el.

Lemieux was a quitter and a relative mental midget who didn't win anything without Jagr, saying you'd take Mario as great as he was, over both Crosby and Ovechkin in their primes is crazy talk.

I don’t think the league was better.

Sakic in his prime put up 18 goals in 22 playoff games.

Forsberg in his prime was the best player in the league.

Nothing Sid or Ovechkin did in an individual season was something that Sakic, Forsberg or Jags didn’t do in an individual season.
 

Midnight Judges

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Man, I thought your takes on Sid were awful. Now you’re really proving yourself to be a sad sack Caps fan.

Mario quit. Multiple times.

Mario forced the Zubov trade. It was because Zubov didn't pass to Mario enough on the powerplay. Zubov went on to win a cup and have a hall of fame career. It was a terrible trade for the Penguins. Good for Mario's stats though.

Mario's ego couldn't fit in the room with Jagr's ego. So Jagr had to go too.

Sid never pulled any crap like that. Neither did Ovie. They wouldn't dream of it.
 

Gurglesons

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Mario quit. Multiple times.

Mario forced the Zubov trade. It was because Zubov didn't pass to Mario enough on the powerplay. Zubov went on to win a cup and have a hall of fame career. It was a terrible trade for the Penguins. Good for Mario's stats though.

Mario's ego couldn't fit in the room with Jagr's ego. So Jagr had to go too.

Sid never pulled any crap like that. Neither did Ovie.

Zubov take is true. Jags take is bizarre.

I’ve never heard a negative thing said about Lemieux by his peers.
 

JasonRoseEh

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I don’t think the league was better.

Sakic in his prime put up 18 goals in 22 playoff games.

Forsberg in his prime was the best player in the league.

Nothing Sid or Ovechkin did in an individual season was something that Sakic, Forsberg or Jags didn’t do in an individual season.
As were both the players mentioned except the other 2 have the individual accolades to backup those claims and Ovechkin never played on a stacked team like the Avalanche did either.

Also, anyone thinking Lemieux is just magically putting up 180 points in today's NHL is nuts. I'm sorry, this notion that players from yesteryear just waltz into today's game and perform even better is crazy. They didn't' stop making great hockey players in the 80's and 90's. Again, I'm not saying he isn't a better player all time but he isn't just obliterating the league, sorry.
 

Gurglesons

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As were both the players mentioned except the other 2 have the individual accolades to backup those claims and Ovechkin never played on a stacked team like the Avalanche did either.

Also, anyone thinking Lemieux is just magically putting up 180 points in today's NHL is nuts. I'm sorry, this notion that players from yesteryear just waltz into today's game and perform even better is crazy. They didn't' stop making great hockey players in the 80's and 90's. Again, I'm not saying he isn't a better player all time but he isn't just obliterating the league, sorry.

I agree with you in regards to most players. Lemieux is built for this era and would have crushed it though.

As far as the Sakic / Forsberg argument. I think we are viewing primes differently. I view it as an individual season including playoffs.
 

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