Would you take Prime Lemieux, or Prime Crosby and Ovechkin

Who do you choose?


  • Total voters
    418

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
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Cap considerations make Lemieux tempting but I like the health advantage from Crosby and especially Ovechkin.
 
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Kuz

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May 11, 2015
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All Depends How the team with Lemieux used the extra cap space as all will be close to league maximum players
 
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JasonRoseEh

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Oct 23, 2018
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No one should be voting Lemieux here. No one.
Ovechkin has not scored or sniffed 100 points pace since 2010
Neither has anyone on his team, but he's still led his team in points as many times as Crosby. What's your point? Give someone else who can produce points on his line at a high level and he'll pile up those extra 10-15 secondaries.
 
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nowhereman

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Jan 24, 2010
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How do Crosby/Ovi hit 250-260+ and Lemieux cap out at 140-150?

Your numbers are way off.

You could have made the same point with more realistic numbers
If you go by adjusted points (which is a flawed formula but it's really all we have to compare offensive eras), most of Lemieux's prime seasons fell in the 140-160 point range. So, yes, I'm probably ten or so imaginary points off the mark there. Crosby and Ovechkin's prime seasons fall in the 120-130 point range and that's with Crosby never getting in a full season in his prime, which adds up to around a combined 240-260 points.

My numbers are realistic. People who think a single player can dominate at the level of two combined all-time legends are being unrealistic. I refuse to believe the fallacy that Lemieux (and Gretzky) would put up 200 point seasons in an era that has massively reduced in scoring since his prime. It's just an absurd argument, given how much the game has changed.
 
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Steve

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Mar 6, 2002
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Lemieux is clearly the best of the bunch but he and some random aren't better than both. Give me the pair every day of the week. Now if we have to consider the cap... that could change some answers but maybe not.
 
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Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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If you go by adjusted points (which is a flawed formula but it's really all we have to compare offensive eras), most of Lemieux's prime seasons fell in the 140-160 point range. So, yes, I'm probably ten or so imaginary points off the mark there. Crosby and Ovechkin's prime seasons fall in the 120-130 point range and that's with Crosby never getting in a full season in his prime, which adds up to around a combined 240-260 points.

My numbers are realistic. People who think a single player can dominate at the level of two combined all-time legends are being unrealistic. I refuse to believe the fallacy that Lemieux (and Gretzky) would put up 200 point seasons in an era that has massively reduced in scoring since his prime. It's just an absurd argument, given how much the game has changed.

Look at what McDavid is doing to this league. Now add 30 pounds and 3 inches and elite goalscoring ability.

Everything that hampered Lemieux is no longer in the league. The style of hockey being played today is completely conductive with Lemieux’s strengths.

40 year old Lemieux had 22 points in 26 games in 2005-06.
 

Midnight Judges

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A month ago I asked if would you take Prime Gretzky or Prime Sid/Malkin. Gretzky won that poll in convincing fashion.

Yeah, HF is ultra stupid sometimes.

Gretzky is the greatest player of all time but he's not going to contribute twice as many wins as Crosby or even Malkin.

People don't seem to understand the limitations on what one player can do for a team.
 

nowhereman

Registered User
Jan 24, 2010
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Los Angeles
Look at what McDavid is doing to this league. Now add 30 pounds and 3 inches and elite goalscoring ability.

Everything that hampered Lemieux is no longer in the league. The style of hockey being played today is completely conductive with Lemieux’s strengths.

40 year old Lemieux had 22 points in 26 games in 2005-06.
This is just nostalgic hyperbole.

Based on what McDavid is doing now, his adjusted points totals are up there with Gretzky and Lemieux's top seasons. Lemieux isn't suddenly going to outproduce his adjusted output from the 80s/90s, by a 15-20% margin, just because the game is more skillful today. Whatever benefits Lemieux would see from decreased clutching and grabbing would be counter-balanced by more effective defensive systems, better goaltending, significantly more mobile defensive cores, and a substantially decreased skill gap between the top of a roster and the bottom.

Lemieux is my favorite player of all time but I watched those late-career seasons and I think that his production needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
 

Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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This is just nostalgic hyperbole.

Based on what McDavid is doing now, his adjusted points totals are up there with Gretzky and Lemieux's top seasons. Lemieux isn't suddenly going to outproduce his adjusted output from the 80s/90s, by a 15-20% margin, just because the game is more skillful today. Whatever benefits Lemieux would see from decreased clutching and grabbing would be counter-balanced by more effective defensive systems, better goaltending, significantly more mobile defensive cores, and a substantially decreased skill gap between the top of a roster and the bottom.

Lemieux is my favorite player of all time but I watched those late-career seasons and I think that his production needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I just frankly disagree. Lemieux was dunking on all timers on defense regularly. He’s the greatest one on one NHLer in history and his size and reach would likely be more impactful with the way the league is going in terms of defensemen.

He’d be torturing the greats in today’s game from a defensive standpoint.
 
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jetsforever

Registered User
Dec 14, 2013
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This is a really interesting though experiment. I have to go with Lemieux. If we're talking all three of these guys at their peak, I believe #66 + any other first line caliber player is going to outproduce Sid and Ovie.

Although since we're just adding them, it'd have to be Lemieux + 1st-liner vs Crosby + Ovechkin + 1st-liner
 

Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
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Vancouver
I don’t know if there's a wrong answer in the cap era. I think it's pretty clear that Crosby and Ovechkin bring more value together than Lemieux alone. He wasn't twice the player Crosby or Ovechkin were. Taking them guarantees you more value now and putting them on separate lines basically gives you two first lines with even lower end top 6 talent around them. This is the formula that's made the Pens so successful.

Looking at contracts though, we see Crosby signing two deals, both for an AAV of 8.7 and Ovechkin signing a long deal for 9.538462. If we consider Crosby's deal one long deal as well since the AAV is the same, and we give Lemieux a similar long term deal at the max when Ovechkin and Crosby signed their deals, we're looking at a deal of just over $10 million for Lemieux. That means you have an extra 8.2 million in cap space to play with while taking Lemieux.

That's a decent amount of cap space, and while it's easy to piss it away, if a team is smart and lucky, I think it's possible to build a team that's better overall due to the presence of having a player like Lemieux on the team. If someone feels that they can build that team, I can see the appeal of taking Lemieux. Ultimately, Oveckin and Crosby are the much safer option though and more likely to end in success. This is exacerbated by Lemieux's health concerns compared to the Gretzky poll, and further so by the fact that he wasn't the type of lead by example star that was going to make others better by emulating him. Here, Crosby and Ovechkin would be better at that.
 
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Three On Zero

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Crosby + Ovechkin is a better version of McDavid and Draisaitl. You take the two talents over the one. Sorry Lemieux
 

Iapyi

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Apr 19, 2017
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As much as Lemieux is the best of the 3 it's hard to take one guy over 2 especially when one of the 2 is a probable top 10 player as well, even if the 2nd guy is strictly a goalscorer who is probably one of the top 10 goalscorers ever.
 

MightySelanne8

Registered User
Mar 10, 2014
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Helsinki
On a salary cap era, its easily Lemieux. He is a player that was on a level only one or two other players have played at, and neither one is named Crosby or Ovechkin. Without salary cap, you take Crosby and Ovie in a heartbeat.
 

Habano

Allez les Bleus, (Blancs, Rouges)
May 18, 2012
5,102
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I'll take the guy who put up 160 points in 60 games and ended his career with a 1.88 PPg.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
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San Diego, CA
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Again, anyone taking Lemieux here is completely delusional. Completely.

I’d argue anyone that is taking Sid / Ovi never watched Lemieux in his prime. He was Sid level thought processing with Ovechkin level goalscoring and size.

He would destroy this league.

Sakic, Jags, and Forsberg were in their primes in 00-01. I’d also say they are comparable talents to Sid and Ovi at their prime level. Lemieux dunked on them as a 35 year old who hadn’t played hockey in years.

Once again, this imaginative take that anyone is close to Lemieux besides Gretzky is just bizarre.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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I’d argue anyone that is taking Sid / Ovi never watched Lemieux in his prime. He was Sid level thought processing with Ovechkin level goalscoring and size.

He would destroy this league.

Sakic, Jags, and Forsberg were in their primes in 00-01. I’d also say they are comparable talents to Sid and Ovi at their prime level. Lemieux dunked on them as a 35 year old who hadn’t played hockey in years.

Once again, this imaginative take that anyone is close to Lemieux besides Gretzky is just bizarre.

I think it depends on the question. If the question is about which option you'd choose in order to have a better *team*, I think there's a lot of merit for taking the two "lesser" players but who can provide more depth.

Take for instance the Pens. When Mario was the sole star, they didn't make the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Sid and Geno era Penguins have never missed the playoffs with both guys on the roster. Individually Mario's the superior player to either of them, but collectively the two of them turn the Pens into a playoff threat every season, while Mario alone couldn't make the Pens a playoff threat multiple times when he was starting out.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
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San Diego, CA
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I think it depends on the question. If the question is about which option you'd choose in order to have a better *team*, I think there's a lot of merit for taking the two "lesser" players but who can provide more depth.

Take for instance the Pens. When Mario was the sole star, they didn't make the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Sid and Geno era Penguins have never missed the playoffs with both guys on the roster. Individually Mario's the superior player to either of them, but collectively the two of them turn the Pens into a playoff threat every season, while Mario alone couldn't make the Pens a playoff threat multiple times when he was starting out.

I think this is a pointless hypothetical because in a cap league Lemieux would be top dog and players would want to play with him. Also it’s not like he was known for his demands for insane contracts. Dude basically played for free for years.

As people are pointing out the talent Lemieux would be playing against is a level above what he played against in the ‘80s. But the same is true with the talent he’d play with.
 

Midnight Judges

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I’d argue anyone that is taking Sid / Ovi never watched Lemieux in his prime. He was Sid level thought processing with Ovechkin level goalscoring and size.

He would destroy this league.

Sakic, Jags, and Forsberg were in their primes in 00-01. I’d also say they are comparable talents to Sid and Ovi at their prime level. Lemieux dunked on them as a 35 year old who hadn’t played hockey in years.

Once again, this imaginative take that anyone is close to Lemieux besides Gretzky is just bizarre.

Actually, if we only count the games Lemieux bothered to play in, Jagr still out-pointed Lemieux in 2001.

Lemieux never led the NHL in anything after age 31.
 

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