Would you rather have this Leafs or Jets group of four young forwards?

[zeke]

No, I'm pointing out that you made a bull**** comparison that falls apart at the seams at any closer inspection.

the comp doesn't fall apart though.

Wait, are you actually saying that my disputing your ridiculous claim is disingenuous? You do realize that you can't just throw out ridiculous claims and expect them not to be challenged, right? If you didn't double down on the claim that Hyman essentially is Wheeler on even strength, I wouldn't have disputed it. You did, so I did. That's not being disingenuous, that's pointing out that your claim is ridiculous.



You said, and I quote:

"At even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler."

You're right, it's weird how I took that as to mean that Hyman is as good as Wheeler on even strength. It's almost like I decided to dispute what you actually said, instead of creating a strawman argument and attack that instead. Should I assume that you don't mean what you say in all your posts, or is this limited to this one ridiculous claim?

my words were very precise, meant exactly what they said, and are accurate.

instead of appreciating the precise comparison made there, and what it says about hyman that you may have not realize, you instead resort to OMKGODHESAIDHYMAN>WHEELER knowing full well that I didn't say it, yet still trying to use it to shut down the conversation.

so yes, disingenuous.

Yes, aside from Wheeler's significant advantage in secondary assists, and thereby in point production, they are really close in point production on even strength.

Yes at even strength, hyman is matching or bettering wheeler in most everything other than secondary assists.

Instead of thinking about what that means, you choose instead to mischaracterize what i say to shut down the conversation.

If you think I'm derailing the conversation when I'm attacking your claims, you are free to report my posts. Having read the rules once or twice, I don't think it's actually against the rules to attack someone's claims. If you don't want people to attack your ridiculous claims, maybe you should take a minute or two to think over why people are attacking them? To assert that I'm being disingenuous because I dispute your ridiculous claims, and further to insinuate that I am derailing a topic when I'm disagreeing with your claims, however, is quite frankly such a laughable attempt at backpedaling.

i could care less about reporting you for anything.

just know that, in order to shut down the conversartion and to avoid learning anything about hyman, you chose to mischaracterize what i said instead.

and know that you calling something ridiculous doesn't make it so.

 

[snowkiddin]

the comp doesn't fall apart though.





my words were very precise, meant exactly what they said, and are accurate.

instead of appreciating the precise comparison made there, and what it says about hyman that you may have not realize, you instead resort to OMKGODHESAIDHYMAN>WHEELER knowing full well that I didn't say it, yet still trying to use it to shut down the conversation.

so yes, disingenuous.





Yes at even strength, hyman is matching or bettering wheeler in most everything other than secondary assists.

Instead of thinking about what that means, you choose instead to mischaracterize what i say to shut down the conversation.





i could care less about reporting you for anything.

just know that, in order to shut down the conversartion and to avoid learning anything about hyman, you chose to mischaracterize what i said instead.

and know that you calling something ridiculous doesn't make it so.

I think he was just disputing that you said "at even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler". That is precisely what you said. How is it disingenuous to dispute something that even the biggest Leaf homers would disagree with?

I thought that saying "he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler" meant that they had the same production, but if that's a mischaracterization, what does it mean?

 

[Romang67]

the comp doesn't fall apart though.

my words were very precise, meant exactly what they said, and are accurate.

instead of appreciating the precise comparison made there, and what it says about hyman that you may have not realize, you instead resort to OMKGODHESAIDHYMAN>WHEELER knowing full well that I didn't say it, yet still trying to use it to shut down the conversation.

so yes, disingenuous.

Yes at even strength, hyman is matching or bettering wheeler in most everything other than secondary assists.

Instead of thinking about what that means, you choose instead to mischaracterize what i say to shut down the conversation.

i could care less about reporting you for anything.

just know that, in order to shut down the conversartion and to avoid learning anything about hyman, you chose to mischaracterize what i said instead.

and know that you calling something ridiculous doesn't make it so.

I quoted your exact words. Your claim that I'm characterizing what you said when I quoted your exact words is flimsy to say the least.

Hyman has less than 80% of Wheeler's points on even strength. I mean, you are of course free to misrepresent their production by ignoring Wheeler's secondary assists, but that doesn't mean Hyman actually has been matching Wheeler's production. Meaning he hasn't basically been Wheeler on even strength.

And again, my attacking your claim is not an attempt to shut down a conversation. Debating people's claims is the entire point of a discussion board.

If you really don't want people to dispute your claims, such as the outrageous claim that (and again, I quote your exact words, so that I don't accidentally "mischaracterize" what you say):

"At even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler."

then maybe a discussion board isn't where you should post those claims?

 

[joe dirte]

Haha, the voice of logic. Using HFboard polls to prove a point...

well the reality is you're talking about two different types of players. one a game controlling playmaker capable of about 90 to 100 points. the other a finisher, capable of 30 to 35 goals, not much use elsewhere.

marner is about 2 to 3 tiers above connor. I'm not sure there is much else to say.

 

[joe dirte]

Yeah, Trouba has missed 26 games, so it would be even strength PPG and P/60.

okay. well if those are the stars you wanna use you better be prepared to use them across the board. some of Winnipeg players will severely suffer....

 

[snowkiddin]

so you can continue to try and derail the convo with your gotcha "OMIGOD HE SAYS HYMAN = WHEEELER" schtick, or you can try to join the conversation and appreciate that you and fellow jets fans may be vastly underrating what hyman does - even though leaf fans have no problem giving lowry credit for what he does.

and yes, hyman has as many non-pp points as laine, too.

I am thinking that has something to do with the fact that in pretty much every Matthews thread here on the main boards Leaf fans are quick to say stuff about how much greater Matthews would look and how many points he would have if he wasn't stuck with Hyman.

 

[snowkiddin]

well the reality is you're talking about two different types of players. one a game controlling playmaker capable of about 90 to 100 points. the other a finisher, capable of 30 to 35 goals, not much use elsewhere.

marner is about 2 to 3 tiers above connor. I'm not sure there is much else to say.

Poor Marner will have to put up 21 points in the final game of the year to hit 90 points.

 

[zeke]

I think he was just disputing that you said "at even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler". That is precisely what you said. How is it disingenuous to dispute something that even the biggest Leaf homers would disagree with?

I thought that saying "he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler" meant that they had the same production, but if that's a mischaracterization, what does it mean?

if i meant "points" i would have said "points".

Even strength this year - with very similar minutes and usage.

Wheeler: 2.06p/60, 1.37p1/60, 50.4cf% (-2.4rel), 51.7xgf% (-1.4rel)
Hyman: 1.69p/60, 1.43p1/60, 50.7cf% (-0.0rel), 52.6xgf% (+2.5rel)

that's what i mean.

 

[zeke]

I am thinking that has something to do with the fact that in pretty much every Matthews thread here on the main boards Leaf fans are quick to say stuff about how much greater Matthews would look and how many points he would have if he wasn't stuck with Hyman.

well, he likely would. there's no question that the leafs have better offensive wingers to put matthews.

if the jets swapped connor and lowry, i'm sure scheifele's production would take a hit too.

 

[snowkiddin]

if i meant "points" i would have said "points".

Even strength this year - with very similar minutes and usage.

Wheeler: 2.06p/60, 1.37p1/60, 50.4cf% (-2.4rel), 51.7xgf% (-1.4rel)
Hyman: 1.69p/60, 1.43p1/60, 50.7cf% (-0.0rel), 52.6xgf% (+2.5rel)

that's what i mean.

Silly me, I should've known you meant he's pretty much Blake Wheeler but not production-wise, which is the most important part of the game I would say.

 

[snowkiddin]

well, he likely would. there's no question that the leafs have better offensive wingers to put matthews.

if the jets swapped connor and lowry, i'm sure scheifele's production would take a hit too.

Why are the Jets making Connor a centre and Lowry winger?

 

[zeke]

I quoted your exact words. Your claim that I'm characterizing what you said when I quoted your exact words is flimsy to say the least.

Hyman has less than 80% of Wheeler's points on even strength. I mean, you are of course free to misrepresent their production by ignoring Wheeler's secondary assists, but that doesn't mean Hyman actually has been matching Wheeler's production. Meaning he hasn't basically been Wheeler on even strength.

And again, my attacking your claim is not an attempt to shut down a conversation. Debating people's claims is the entire point of a discussion board.

If you really don't want people to dispute your claims, such as the outrageous claim that (and again, I quote your exact words, so that I don't accidentally "mischaracterize" what you say):

"At even strength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler."

then maybe a discussion board isn't where you should post those claims?

you have not debated anything.

you merely mischaracterized one claim i made, and then mocked that mischaracterization.

that's not debate. that's trying to shut down debate.

 

[Romang67]

you have not debated anything.

you merely mischaracterized one claim i made, and then mocked that mischaracterization.

that's not debate. that's trying to shut down debate.

You don't seem to understand this. I am disputing exactly what you said. I have quoted your exact words several times. If you think what you said is wrong, you are free to admit that what you said is wrong, and we'll be in agreement.

Contrary to what you're saying, I have actually shown that Hyman wasn't basically Wheeler on even strength. 80% I believe was the number I gave you.

I'm not sure exactly what you're attempting to do by claiming that I'm attacking a strawman. What you said is clear for every one to see. You know, on account of my quoting your exact words.

 

[joe dirte]

Poor Marner will have to put up 21 points in the final game of the year to hit 90 points.

capable of = doing right now.

okay

 

[snowkiddin]

capable of = doing right now.

okay

So Marner is capable of it but he can't do it now? Connor is "capable of" 30 goals, he is doing it now as a rookie. I would say he is capable of at least 40 goals in the future.

 

[joe dirte]

So Marner is capable of it but he can't do it now? Connor is "capable of" 30 goals, he is doing it now as a rookie. I would say he is capable of at least 40 goals in the future.

the difference is that marner actually HAS been doing it for 30 or 40 games.

 

[snowkiddin]

the difference is that marner actually HAS been doing it for 30 or 40 games.

In his last 30 games, Connor has 14 goals, so a .46 GPG. Multiply that by 82 and that's 38 goals, so nearly 40. So Connor has been doing it too.

 

[joe dirte]

In his last 30 games, Connor has 14 goals, so a .46 GPG. Multiply that by 82 and that's 38 goals, so nearly 40. So Connor has been doing it too.

great.

now youve got JVR vs pat kane type players.

still wanna defend your compared statement about marner being Connors floor?

 

[snowkiddin]

great.

now youve got JVR vs pat kane type players.

still wanna defend your compared statement about marner being Connors floor?

That wasn't my statement. Someone else said that. I just think it's disingenuous to say Marner is capable of 90-100 points (not saying I disagree there) but then also say Connor is (only) capable of 30-35 goals, even though Connor has already reached that, whereas Mitch has not reached his projection yet (again, not saying he won't, he very likely will as early as next year).

 

[joe dirte]

That wasn't my statement. Someone else said that. I just think it's disingenuous to say Marner is capable of 90-100 points (not saying I disagree there) but then also say Connor is (only) capable of 30-35 goals, even though Connor has already reached that, whereas Mitch has not reached his projection yet (again, not saying he won't, he very likely will as early as next year).

reasonably fair.

first point being Connors floor = Marners ceiling is an absolutely absurd statement. that's your flappygiraffes comment.

if anything the opposite is true given what each player has PROVEN.

 

[snowkiddin]

reasonably fair.

first point being Connors floor = Marners ceiling is an absolutely absurd statement. that's your flappygiraffes comment.

if anything the opposite is true given what each player has PROVEN.

You'll have to take him to task on that one.

 

[zeke]

You don't seem to understand this. I am disputing exactly what you said. I have quoted your exact words several times. If you think what you said is wrong, you are free to admit that what you said is wrong, and we'll be in agreement.

Contrary to what you're saying, I have actually shown that Hyman wasn't basically Wheeler on even strength. 80% I believe was the number I gave you.

I'm not sure exactly what you're attempting to do by claiming that I'm attacking a strawman. What you said is clear for every one to see. You know, on account of my quoting your exact words.

"At evenstrength this year he has pretty much been Blake Wheeler."

Wheeler: 2.06p/60, 1.37p1/60, 50.4cf% (-2.4rel), 51.7xgf% (-1.4rel)
Hyman: 1.69p/60, 1.43p1/60, 50.7cf% (-0.0rel), 52.6xgf% (+2.5rel)


now you had 2 choices here:

1."whoa hyman is matching or bettering wheeler in most every category other than secondary assists - this is surprising to me because wheeler is awesome. maybe hyman is better than i thought. maybe this sheds some light on a hyman-lowry comparison."

or

2."LULZ I CAN'T BELIEVE HE SAID HYMAN>WHEELER LOLLLLLOZZ"



You chose the latter.

 

[Buckets and Gloves]

Of this particular group I prefer leafs actually... but I will admit I am more exposed and see them more often... I like Kapenen and Brown, both dudes would love on my team.

 

[North Cole]

Jets yungings with the Leafs coaching staff.

 

[Yackiberg8]

I’m still genuinely not understanding the love Hyman is getting from Leaf fans in this thread, when, in any other thread, it’s a crime that Matthews is stuck playing with him.

You're exaggerating the situation. We believe Matthews would produce even more offense if he were given another highly skilled offensive player on his line (hence the disparity between points from Matthews and Nylander to Hyman) but the line might suffer in other areas. The Leafs like to balance their lines and have Hyman playing a specific role on the Matthews line that likely makes the team better than if they stacked the line with offence.

Hyman is a solid offensive player and a good player overall who would be excellent on the third line in a more standard lineup approach, which is where depth players play.