Would You Put the Following Players on a Top 300 Players List?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by 29GoalHoglund, Jul 21, 2017.

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  1. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    If you were constructing your very own list of the top 300 players in NHL history (weighed more toward career than talent level but taking both into account), would the following players make the cut?

    I don't expect too much deliberating here. I just want people to think about what type of a player they would probably have at the 500 position, and then to decide if each of these guys would be worthy of making the cut...

    I'm interesting in creating a top 500 players of all-time list (or top 300 or so since 1967) and would like some input from the members of this board.

    I browse the History of Hockey section of HFBoards daily. I enjoy reading the takes of the regulars here... some knowledgeable hockey fans for sure...


    Here's the list of players to consider. Please say "yes," "no" or "maybe." If you would put the player in the top 400 but not top 300, please say so. If you'd place him in the top 500, please indicate that. If you wouldn't have him in the top 500, please say so. I'm concentrating on forwards for now.



    Markus Naslund
    Peter Bondra
    Ziggy Palffy
    Daniel Alfredsson
    Saku Koivu
    Alex Kovalev
    Alexander Mogilny
    Keith Tkachuk
    John Leclair
    Micheal Goulet
    Glen Anderson
    Dave Andreychuk
    Wendel Clark
    Bobby Smith
    Neal Broten
    Brian Bellows
    Vincent Lecavalier
    Martin St. Louis
    Brad Richards
    Marian Gaborik
    Rick Nash
    Jeff Carter
    Mike Foligno
    Toni Tanti
    Doug Weight
    Ryan Smyth
    Vincent Damphousse
    Jeremy Roenick
    Bernie Nicholls
    Bernie Federko
    Scott Mellanby
    Miroslav Satan
    Chris Drury
    Danny Briere
    Scott Gomez
    Martin Straka
    Mike Ridley
    Dany Heatley
    Ilya Kovalchuk
    Paul Kariya
    Olli Jokinen




    I'm going to assume the following are consensus top 300 players. If you think one isn't, please say so as well:


    Dale Hawerchuk
    Mike Modano
    Mats Sundin
    Pierre Turgeon
    Mark Recchi
    Mike Gartner
    Darryl Sittler
    Joe Thornton
    Jarome Iginla
    Joe Nieuwendyk
     
  2. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    I bolded the ones I think are top 300.
     
  3. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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  4. crobro

    crobro Registered User

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    What about Denis Maruk
     
  5. MXD

    MXD Dead again

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    Import/Export's list is pretty good.
     
  6. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Can I have a link? :)
     
  7. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Are you sure about Ziggy?

    I think he's under-valued and under-appreciating, but I don't really see an argument for him over a few of the other options...

    Mogilny was as talented (if not more) and had a better career.

    Kovalev and Palffy would be about neck and neck, I'd think.

    Damphousse and Roenick were centres who were good for a long time. Lecavalier was probably a top five player for a very short period. Richards was a tremendous playoff performer from 2004-2012 (eighth most playoff points during that span + Conn Smythe, Cup and two CF losses) and he finished in the top three in points three times in his career despite missing what would would have been a peak season due to a lockout.


    Thank you for the input, though. I agree with the rest!
     
  8. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Look at the 2nd post of this thread. :)

    I put in bold the players who are top 300 IMO. A guy like Martin St Louis is easily inside the top 200. Same thing with Kariya.
     
  9. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Oh, ok. I thought he meant you created your own list and posted it on the board at some point lol.


    Yeah, your choices are good.

    I agree about MSL, but did Kariya really have the longevity to deserve to be in the top 200? I'm thinking I'd slide him in in the 275-300 range or so.
     
  10. MXD

    MXD Dead again

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    I like that you went with obvious Top-300 players with your "bolds" actually : some of the non-bolded are very close calls who could go either way (Roenick comes to mind as such a case). I mean, I can name my Top-15 quite easily and be certain for maybe all of them, except maybe the 15th.

    How the hell do I know if I'm ranking Roenick 282nd or 309th ?
     
  11. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Yes

    Daniel Alfredsson
    John Leclair
    Micheal Goulet
    Martin St. Louis
    Jeremy Roenick
    Ilya Kovalchuk
    Paul Kariya

    Dale Hawerchuk
    Mike Modano
    Mats Sundin
    Mark Recchi
    Darryl Sittler
    Joe Thornton
    Jarome Iginla

    Maybe

    Markus Naslund
    Ziggy Palffy
    Alexander Mogilny
    Keith Tkachuk
    Brad Richards
    Bernie Nicholls
    Bernie Federko
    Dany Heatley

    Joe Nieuwendyk
    Pierre Turgeon

    No

    Peter Bondra
    Saku Koivu
    Alex Kovalev
    Glen Anderson
    Dave Andreychuk
    Wendel Clark
    Bobby Smith
    Neal Broten
    Brian Bellows
    Vincent Lecavalier
    Marian Gaborik
    Rick Nash
    Jeff Carter
    Mike Foligno
    Toni Tanti
    Doug Weight
    Ryan Smyth
    Vincent Damphousse
    Scott Mellanby
    Miroslav Satan
    Chris Drury
    Danny Briere
    Scott Gomez
    Martin Straka
    Mike Ridley
    Olli Jokinen

    Mike Gartner
     
  12. MXD

    MXD Dead again

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    That seems like an odd question, but....
    Would you put John Leclair in your Top-200?
    If you do, why?
    If you don't, what would prevent you to do so?
     
  13. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Kariya was a 5 time postseason AS. Really solid scoring numbers is a career that was mostly played in a lower scoring era. Obviously doesn't have much in the way of postseason resume, but that's not really on him as much as it is on the teams he played for. He also had some really good showings during the World Championships (won a Best Forward award) and led a Canadien team to the Silver medal in the 94 Olympics, when they weren't expected to do well at all.

    MSL is defnitely closer to 100 than Kariya, but I'd have Paul comfortably inside the top 200. Maybe like 160-175ish off the top of my head.
     
  14. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Take Turgeon off the consensus list.

    He's more fitting on the list of bolded and unbolded (you think bolded, some of us not). He was consistently very good, never one of the greats.

    Weight is not bolded but he was a great passer at a time with so many all-time great passers (Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Francis, Oates). I wouldn't include Weight because he didn't maintain the level long enough, just like Turgeon has great career totals but lacking great peak seasons). Neither Turgeon or Weight ought to be on any final list of all-time greats, unless it's a pretty large list; but, given you are NOT assembling an all-time list but a best modern player list (1967 onward), they might be worth mentioning.
     
  15. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Woah, woah, woah...

    TDMM, you wouldn't even consider Mike Gartner for a top 300 list? At least the way you put him behind everyone else in the "no" group suggests that.

    I think Gartner's actually starting to become a bit underrated as a goal scorer by the internet hockey community.

    I always hear "compiler this," compiler that" about him, but the guy only played 19 seasons (as opposed well over 20 like, say, Andreychuk) and averaged more than 35 goals per season.

    He played in a high-scoring era, I know, but still, that would probably translate to something like 28 goals per season, which I think is quite a good average for almost 20 years.


    He had a peak that I think is underrated as well.

    From '86-'87-'92-'93, he had the sixth most goals in the NHL, behind only Lemieux, Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille and LaFontaine. Two of those guys are considered all-time greats and two others are considered legitimately high-end goal scorers.

    http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...=19921993&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=goals

    He finished in the top ten for goals three times during that span as well and finished 11th once and 14th (tied) once, peaking at fifth in the NHL in his best goal scoring season.

    I think it would be hard to not slot him in the 275-300 range at least.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  16. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Hmmm... yeah, I'd include him.

    I think he was a dominant, distinguishable and elite winger during the early to middle dead puck era days.

    Okay... sounds like Kariya. True.
     
  17. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I don't think he's worse than the rest of my "no's;" he's probably better than most of them. I separated the players you thought were definites from the ones you thought were maybes when I listed my answer. I have Gartner as a decisive "no," because I think he was definitely weaker than any of the players I listed as "maybe."
     
  18. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Ah, I see. That makes sense.
     
  19. HawkNut

    HawkNut Registered User

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    Goulet, Kariya and St. Louis are all arguably top 100, let alone 300.
     
  20. MXD

    MXD Dead again

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    Run Goulet and Kariya's case, and you'll realize you'll probably miss room even before getting players that were better (like, Martin St Louis) than those two.
     
  21. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

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    300:
     
  22. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    There's no room in the top 100 for those three. They're top 200 at best.

    Not necessarily in order... here's a list of the best players I can think of that anyone with credible knowledge of hockey would include...


    1. Gretzky
    2. Orr
    3. Howe
    4. Lemieux
    5. Beliveau
    6. Bobby Hull
    7. Mikita
    8. Jagr
    9. Hasek
    10. Lidstrom
    11. Crosby
    12. Maurice Richard
    13. Morenz
    14. Esposito
    15. Joe Malone
    16. Lalonde
    17. Milt Schmidt
    18. Syl Apps
    19. Charlie Conacher
    20. Shore
    21. Cook
    22. Max Bentley
    23. Dit Clapper
    24. Bill Cowley
    25. Dickie Moore
    26. Red Kelly
    27. Turk Broda
    28. "Busher" Jackson
    29. Boucher
    30. Nighbour
    31. Elmer Lach
    32. Cy Denneny
    33. King Clancy
    34. Toe Blake
    35. Ken Dryden
    36. Plante
    37. Sawchuk
    38. Brodeur
    39. Glenn Hall
    40. Lafleur
    41. Robinson
    42. Bobby Clarke
    43. Ted Lindsay
    44. Park
    45. Geoffrion
    46. Frank Mahovlich
    47. Henri Richard
    48. Bourque
    49. Messier
    50. Trottier
    51. Bossy
    52. Denis Potvin
    53. Kurri
    54. Coffey
    55. Stastny
    56. Patrick Roy
    57. Chelios
    58. Billy Smith
    59. Brett Hull
    60. Robitaille
    61. Yzerman
    62. Sakic
    63. Pronger
    64. Scott Stevens
    65. Selanne
    66. Ovechkin
    67. Joe Primeau
    68. Johnny Bower
    69. Babe Dye
    70. Serge Savard
    71. Tony Esposito
    72. Brian Leetch
    73. Doug Bentley
    74. Borje Salming
    75. Joliat
    76. Brimsek
    77. Nels Stewart


    Then I'd rather put guys like Forsberg, Fedorov, Gilbert Perreault, Ron Francis, Adam Oates, Patrick Kane (yes, he's better than the three guys you mentioned), Bure and some others in my top 100 than Kariya or Goulet. St. Louis has the best case of the three.

    Kariya, Goulet and St. Louis would have to battle it out with the likes of Pierre Pilote, Ted Kennedy, Sittler, Joe Thornton, Denis Savard, Mike Modano, Jarome Iginla, Hawerchuk, Sundin, Lindros, Jean Ratelle, Norm Ullman, Alex Delvecchio and numerous others for their rankings on a top 100-200 list.
     
  23. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    Thank you, Sentinel!
     
  24. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Richards, Federko and Heatley to no, Gartner and Anderson to maybe. Otherwise I completely agree.
     
  25. GlitchMarner

    GlitchMarner Formerly 29GoalHoglund

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    I can make a case for Richards...

    He had the third most points among centres from 2001-2002 to 2005-2006...

    http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...mesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

    This is despite the fact that the 2004 lockout happened RIGHT after his Conn Smythe win (ie when he was at his absolute peak). I think he would have had a very strong season if there had been a 2004-2005 season.


    He ranked eighth in playoff points in the League from 2004-2012 and helped his teams get to the third round or further three times.


    Then he had a second peak from 2009-2010 to 2010-2011, in which he finished fourth in points among centres during that cumulative period:

    http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...onFrom=20092010&seasonTo=20102011&sort=points



    I think the guy would have had a good shot at being a HOF'er if the lockout hadn't cost him a prime season and if he had declined a little later than he did.


    In any case, I'd take his career over Vinny's.
     

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