Proposal: Would you consider Mantha for Parayko?

[Ingvar]

Yes, I believe Parayko has a good potential to turn into 1/2D. Blues won't trade him after letting Shattenkirk go though.

 

[izlez]

No, draft and develop your own players.

I completely agree with that philosophy....but I don't think it really applies to the proposed 1-for-1, young player for young player, trade in this thread. No harm in that.

 

[KJoe88]

I don’t do it. For the people who know me here know that I’m super biased for Mantha. I still believe he can be a 40G guy.

Secondly, Parayko doesn’t impress me. Yes, he’s good, but imo not worth trading for unless our defense was already on the mend. He just doesn’t do it for me. His only positive for me is his contract. I’m sorry, but he just doesn’t trigger me; yeah, that could change but right now I see Mantha more valuable

Thirdly, Mantha and Zadina (still sounds unreal) could be an amazing one-two punch on separate lines. We could have scoring up and down the lineup for years. Potential 30G guys on different lines could be incredibly hard to stop.

Edit: mispelled Zadina. :/

 

[Hammettf2b]

I don’t do it. For the people who know me here know that I’m super biased for Mantha. I still believe he can be a 40G guy.

Secondly, Parayko doesn’t impress me. Yes, he’s good, but imo not worth trading for unless our defense was already on the mend. He just doesn’t do it for me. His only positive for me is his contract. I’m sorry, but he just doesn’t trigger me.

Thirdly, Mantha and Zandina (still sounds unreal) could be an amazing one-two punch on separate lines. We could have scoring up and down the lineup for years. Potential 30G guys on different lines could be incredibly hard to stop.

x-Larkin-Mantha
x - Ras- Zadina

Looks good to me. I think Zadina would benefit with playing with Ras since Ras likes to be around the net and be that gritty guy down low while Zadina just rips shots towards the net.

 

[KJoe88]

I don’t want anyone to misconstrue my logic on this. But teams also need efficient scoring to win cups along with defense. I know our defense has been doodoo for a long while now, but the offensive potential we now possess with Mantha and Zadina is too high to just give up on for a top four defenseman (again, yes, he could develop into a high end top two pairing guy).

 

[Hammettf2b]

I don’t want anyone to misconstrue my logic on this. But teams also need efficient scoring to win cups along with defense. I know our defense has been doodoo for a long while now, but the offensive potential we now possess with Mantha and Zadina is too high to just give up on for a borderline top two defenseman (again, yes, he could develop into a high end top two pairing guy)

Vegas proved you don't need top pairing guys to be effective. If the Wings stock up with a bunch of middle pairing guys and possess a killer forward core, I think they can contend.

 

[KJoe88]

Vegas proved you don't need top pairing guys to be effective. If the Wings stock up with a bunch of middle pairing guys and process a killer forward core, I think they can contend.

And as much as I got sick of the whole Vegas storyline, their team was excellent. And exactly what you said.

Just have a bunch of top four defenseman all playing well and part of a system. We may already have a bunch of high end top four guys in the making.

I just know this, Holland has done an excellent redeeming himself lately and his scouting staff has been good too. That has led to some really, really promising picks. And as a result of that our forward core is looking damn fine in my view.

And due to that I don’t think it would be wise trading any of them for a top four defenseman atm. We gotta see where guys like Mantha and Zadina go. And I believe it’s high up. I also don’t believe it’s wise to trade an up and coming scorer for a defenseman we may not need.

 

[NickH8]

Vegas proved you don't need top pairing guys to be effective. If the Wings stock up with a bunch of middle pairing guys and possess a killer forward core, I think they can contend.

Points wise, sure, they had no top defensemen, but defensively they had the guys who could shut down elite players, therefore elite, top pairing guys. Nate Schmidt was their top defender. If a middle pairing defender is paired up against McDavid, McDavid wins, it doesn't matter that the guys on the bench are middle pairing as well.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

But why? What does Parayko do that's so special? Is it based strictly on upside?

He’s a legit top pairing defenseman who’s good as hell.

 

[Shaman464]

No, draft and develop your own players.

Because Detroit has a STRONG and LONG track record of drafting and developing difference making D-men....

 

[kliq]

Can someone tell me what role he plays with the Blues? I ask, because I suspect (but could be wrong) that he is on the second pairing. If yes, its a lot easier to be a top 4 guy on a decent team then to be a top 2 guy on a bad team. My worry is that if he comes here and he is miscast/exposed.

Look how good DD did here in a top 4 role back when we were decent, and then how poorly he has regressed since being given #1 status on a poor team.

Maybe Parayko is better then I am giving him credit for, but he pretty much scores 35 points a year which is good (39th in the NHL last year), but nothing to write home about. Even a broken down Kronwall got 27 points last year) and defensively while he is good, I dont think he is elite or anything special.

With that said, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Points wise, sure, they had no top defensemen, but defensively they had the guys who could shut down elite players, therefore elite, top pairing guys. Nate Schmidt was their top defender. If a middle pairing defender is paired up against McDavid, McDavid wins, it doesn't matter that the guys on the bench are middle pairing as well.

Only Schmidt and McNabb live up to that and no way would I ever trade Mantha for someone like them.

 

[kliq]

Because Detroit has a STRONG and LONG track record of drafting and developing difference making D-men....

Its about as strong as our recent history of bringing in D-men and having them take their game to the next level lol.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Can someone tell me what role he plays with the Blues? I ask, because I suspect (but could be wrong) that he is on the second pairing. If yes, its a lot easier to be a top 4 guy on a decent team then to be a top 2 guy on a bad team. My worry is that if he comes here and he is miscast/exposed.

Look how good DD did here in a top 4 role back when we were decent, and then how poorly he has regressed since being given #1 status on a poor team.

Maybe Parayko is better then I am giving him credit for, but he pretty much scores 35 points a year which is good (39th in the NHL last year), but nothing to write home about. Even a broken down Kronwall got 27 points last year) and defensively while he is good, I dont think he is elite or anything special.

With that said, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought I posted about this a little, but maybe not. He was the clear #2 for the Blues behind Pietrangelo. He was second on the team in total TOI, PP TOI, and PK TOI behind Pietrangelo. The only reason he isn't the #1 guy for St Louis is because they have one of the RHDs in the league that are better than him.

 

[Invictus12]

Even before drafting Zadina I'd trade Mantha for Parayko. It just seems to be harder to acquire top d-men than it is wingers these days and I actually think Parayko is a better player as it stands today. Both trending upwards and whatever possible risk you can imagine in trading away Mantha for Parayko is exactly the same risk in keeping Mantha over Parayko. It's really simple in my mind.

 

[Invictus12]

I love Mantha, but the belief that taking Mantha off the table and suggesting that any combination of Nyquist/Svechnikov/Athanasiou (all of which have significantly lower ceilings than Mantha) would be a starting point for Parayko at this point is beyond asinine.

Parayko is on a sweetheart contract, with term, still entering his prime, playing one of the premier positions of need in hockey, and has a higher ceiling than anyone in this organization (not including Zadina, who we still have to allow time to dictate what his ceiling is). Would I consider trading Mantha? Sure, but I also know the actual price will likely be so high that it would hurt more than it would help.

It's the Kindl + 3rd gets you top pairing dman mentality that we saw a few years ago. Teams aren't lining up to trade a way their best players for players other teams look to get rid off. Not sure why so many folks on this site seem to think otherwise.

 

[FunkyColdZadina]

IMO you'd be insane to not do Mantha for Parayko in a one-for-one deal, but at this point in time I don't think it's all that imperative to try to plug up that whole on defense. We're still in the middle of a rebuild, plenty of time to draft our own Parayko or collect more assets to make a trade in another year or 2 .

 

[Henkka]

I think Mantha could be now available.

When we drafted Zadina, Mantha kind of lost his right-side slot on the PP.

At last season, Mantha was used at net-front, to learn also something about that, but now also Rasmussen is coming. He will be the net-front master.

As for our future power-play, only spot I currently see for Mantha, is the guy in the middle of the diamond.



----------------- Rasmussen (net-front)


RH playmaker -------- Mantha -------------- LH Zadina


------------------- RhD PP-quarterback (could also be LhD)

So that would be his spot, another big guy on the shooting lane for point-shots. Many teams have used these double-screens, also Red Wings in the past. Having 6'6 Rasmussen and 6'5 Mantha on the point shooting lane is lethal. Mantha has good hand-eye for tip-ins, when the quarterback shoots. Also that RH playmaker could have both Mantha and Zadina as a one-timer options.

But so far, we are lacking those Left side Right-handed players.

That's how we should use Mantha in the future. But also, that middle guy is one of easiest to replace. It just needs a smart player. We could put Larkin there as an "Oshie", like capitals PP was built (a mirror-image in handnesses, Zadina is our "Ovechkin" etc.).

What if we sacrifise Mantha, because he isn't the best RW on the orgnization anymore, and trade for a that PP quarterback, like Parayko or Faulk?

 

[Winger98]

I think Parayko is a higher level D than Fauk, and is a guy I'd be more likely to move Mantha for. So, yeah, I'd probably deal Mantha straight up for Parayko because I think we're getting a better player at a position we've sucked at filling for quite awhile.

If we don't move Mantha, I'd work on a power play format that puts him and Rasmussen down low. Maybe sort of a cockeyed umbrella where one or the other can slide in and out of that net front area depending on where the puck is.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I think Mantha could be now available.

When we drafted Zadina, Mantha kind of lost his right-side slot on the PP.

At last season, Mantha was used at net-front, to learn also something about that, but now also Rasmussen is coming. He will be the net-front master.

As for our future power-play, only spot I currently see for Mantha, is the guy in the middle of the diamond.



----------------- Rasmussen (net-front)


RH playmaker -------- Mantha -------------- LH Zadina


------------------- RhD PP-quarterback (could also be LhD)

So that would be his spot, another big guy on the shooting lane for point-shots. Many teams have used these double-screens, also Red Wings in the past. Having 6'6 Rasmussen and 6'5 Mantha on the point shooting lane is lethal. Mantha has good hand-eye for tip-ins, when the quarterback shoots. Also that RH playmaker could have both Mantha and Zadina as a one-timer options.

But so far, we are lacking those Left side Right-handed players.

That's how we should use Mantha in the future. But also, that middle guy is one of easiest to replace. It just needs a smart player. We could put Larkin there as an "Oshie", like capitals PP was built (a mirror-image in handnesses, Zadina is our "Ovechkin" etc.).

What if we sacrifise Mantha, because he isn't the best RW on the orgnization anymore, and trade for a that PP quarterback, like Parayko or Faulk?

I mean if we move Mantha, I still have to get a bona fide stud of a defenseman. He doesn't have to be the #1 option at RW moving forward to have value to this team. We have two PP units, and Mantha can find a role somewhere. He could be the RW or net front on the second unit. He could be the bumper like Oshie with Larkin shifting to the LW kind of how Zetterberg fills right now.

Even at 5 on 5, the best teams spread their scoring out. It's why Kane and Toews (before Toews regressed) played on two separate lines. It's why the Penguins have split Crosby-Malkin-Kessel on to 3 separate lines. You need talent throughout the lineup, not just the top. It's why I laugh to myself every time I see Mantha-Larkin-Zadina listed as a line. There's no way that is the "ideal" line moving forward because it has our two best goal scorers, who should both be shoot first options, trying to coexist with one playing off of his preferred wing. Mantha could be a first line caliber RW who ends up playing second line because we actually have depth. Think McDavid-Draisaitl-RNH. #2 and #3 could easily move up a slot competently, but the depth allows them to be exceptionally strong up and down the lineup.

Would I be prepared to move Mantha if someone like Werenski or Jones were to hit the market? 100%. But we need to be selective how we use our best talent because they will always be able to carve out a role on the team.

 

[Inspiration]

If Parayko is truly available, this is another Tyler Seguin or Taylor Hall moment: an opportunity to steal away an elite player for lesser pieces. Mantha is a very good player, in the same way Reilly Smith and Loui Eriksson (at the time of the Seguin trade) were very good players. However, Parayko is a star; teams rarely lose when they get a player of his caliber in a trade.

 

[r0bert8841]

Absolutely! If Parayko is available I think we should over pay for him. Kenny can draft/develop decent forwards pretty regularly but he hasn’t drafted/developed a defenseman in Parayko’s tier in a long long time.

 

[NickH8]

Mantha + Svechnikov + 2nd round pick for Parayko. I'd do it. Parayko is already pretty damn close to being the number 1 guy we need.

 

[jkutswings]

Mantha + Svechnikov + 2nd round pick for Parayko. I'd do it. Parayko is already pretty damn close to being the number 1 guy we need.

The problem is that all the follow-up talk from the Blues side was that they'd only deal him for a potential 1C, which isn't included in the package you propose.

I think they'd do it if Larkin was in the mix, but then we're just filling one hole by creating another, so I'm not sure what Detroit could offer that St. Louis would consider.

 

[NickH8]

The problem is that all the follow-up talk from the Blues side was that they'd only deal him for a potential 1C, which isn't included in the package you propose.

I think they'd do it if Larkin was in the mix, but then we're just filling one hole by creating another, so I'm not sure what Detroit could offer that St. Louis would consider.

Maybe they think highly of Rasmussen? I'm just throwing stuff out there but I would be willing to include Rasmussen as a piece in the deal. I'd probably remove Mantha though, having guys who play a simple game and score those dirty goals is important, and I don't want to get rid of both of our guys that are best at that.

This is if they think highly of him, of course. I personally see Rasmussen becoming a JVR style top 6 winger instead of a center.