Would TNA be as big as NJPW if...

ColePens

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Mar 27, 2008
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TNA really found a good pocket with their different ring and their wrestlers prior to Hogan coming in and ruining it all. They were really forcing a lot of people to at least, at the very least, tune into PPVs and the matches were delivering.

IF TNA stayed in that pocket and continued to focus on wrestling, would they have found the success and popularity that NJPW currently is?
 

Blitzkrug

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Sep 17, 2013
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No, because even without Hogan they would have never been able to shake the stigma of being the land of the WWE castoffs/rejects.

If they would have kept up with the homegrown/indie movement (Joe/AJ/Daniels/Angle since his name was still worth something after WWE let him go) then maybe.

Angle and Christian are the only two guys TNA picked off the WWE heap that were actually able to either help the company or evolve into something TNA could work with. The rest were castoffs and thus no one wanted to see them.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I assume that you mean Hogan's second run in 2009. It would take some creativity but the opportunity to take on WWE to some degree existed in 2009. I doubt that WWE could be toppled, but WWE had a dearth of talent at that time and wasn't yet buying up everyone from the independents that they could find. What they should do in this scenario in 2009:

1. Change name to something not ridiculous.

2. Keep Styles, Joe, Roode, Shelley, Lethal, Angle, Storm, Homicide, Consequences Creed and build around them. Old WWE and WCW guys are released. Russo, Dixie and nearly everyone backstage released.

3. Bring in Heyman and give him a prominent creative position, possibly booker. Do not let him be in charge of business decisions, just creative.

4. Use Heyman connection to bring in Lesnar in 2012. Having Heyman and a ton of money in this scenario I am certain that Lesnar could be had. Lesnar gives instant mainstream attention.

5. Bring in Hardy brothers as happened in reality.

6. Cultivate, instead of messing up, the NJPW relationship. This should give first TNA access to English speaking NJPW talent (like Devitt eventually) and would allow TNA to co-opt a lot of the current NJPW popularity in North America. NJPW is very conservative business-wise, so the partnership may allow TNA to use NJPW talent and put on the PPVs that NJPW is now starting to put on in North America.

7. Aggressively pursue the prominent indy guys that were still available in 2009. Tyler Black, Jon Moxley, Austin Aries, Claudio Castagnoli, Ricochet, Kevin Steel, El Generico, Kenny Omega were all available. Add those guys and the roster is loaded. Continue pursuing these guys in the future, and if the guys that were previously hired were treated right then I think TNA could continue getting the best indy guys.

8. Go after quality disgruntled WWE guys, though with increased competition and a weakened roster some guys (Punk, Rhodes) may be given a more prominent push and be harder to get. Specifically go after Punk in 2011.

The roster with those wrestlers I listed would be far superior to what WWE had and has had since, especially with a sprinkling of top NJPW talent mixed in. Heyman is far superior to Stephanie in terms of creative. Lesnar is a big draw. TNA actually did have a lot of talent in reality, but as we all know it was mostly squandered.
 

Shoalzie

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I started watching them you could see their shows on in the afternoon on the local Fox Sports channel...prior to moving over to Spike. They were something different to watch when WWE wouldn't do it for me.

I know they weren't their entirely homegrown but I watched for AJ, Joe, Roode, Lethal, Daniels, the X-division, Motor City Machine Guns...lots of new faces I'd never seen before and were really entertained by them.

They started to lose me when they became the place where old wrestlers went to die. They did a couple decent things with older wrestlers...Fortune was cool and I liked Main Event Mafia for stretches. I think Angle might've had some of his best work at TNA.

I don't care about the 6-sided ring...it's different but not a selling point. I like seeing a company do something different from WWE. I don't want to watch a WWE knockoff when we have to choke down at least 5 hours of programming a week. That's why NXT is so fun...almost has a feel of that TNA period that I enjoyed.
 

scrubadam

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No because outside of Bischoff no one is as good as a promoter as VKM and the WWE machine when it comes to pro wrestling. Not talking about booking or making stars or listening to fans or shoving Reigns down our throats over DB etc...

I am talking about PROMOTING, meaning putting butts in seats for your events. VKM and the WWE machine cannot be matched today. Look at NXT. Within 4 or 5 years it started from nothing and is a bigger brand globally then ROH/TNA. Its not made up of any WWE stars yet it draws bigger houses than any other promotion outside of WWE (and probably NJPW).

Bischoff went toe to toe with VKM and the machine and beat it. Bischoff was a great exec and a good promoter. He helped revolutionize the business, added more PPV's, live prime time nitro etc... Don't know if there is another mind out there that will be able to do that, and if there is that the WWE won't hire them.
 

Blitzkrug

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Bischoff's executive prowess is grossly overrated. His strategy was "let me sign all the old guard and give them ludicrously bad contracts/creative control." and then had one money angle (which admittedly he brilliantly adapted from NJPW.) Anything else he came up with was highly linear and had no longevity after the payoff happened (see; Goldberg streak, Sting's eventual overcoming of the NWO)

He didn't beat the machine, he gave it a scare. When it became clear he had no original ideas, the company imploded.
 

GKJ

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Reminder that TNA once had freaken Kazuchika Okada and New Japan was so pissed off about how that went, they ended the relationship.
 

JackSlater

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No because outside of Bischoff no one is as good as a promoter as VKM and the WWE machine when it comes to pro wrestling. Not talking about booking or making stars or listening to fans or shoving Reigns down our throats over DB etc...

I am talking about PROMOTING, meaning putting butts in seats for your events. VKM and the WWE machine cannot be matched today. Look at NXT. Within 4 or 5 years it started from nothing and is a bigger brand globally then ROH/TNA. Its not made up of any WWE stars yet it draws bigger houses than any other promotion outside of WWE (and probably NJPW).

Bischoff went toe to toe with VKM and the machine and beat it. Bischoff was a great exec and a good promoter. He helped revolutionize the business, added more PPV's, live prime time nitro etc... Don't know if there is another mind out there that will be able to do that, and if there is that the WWE won't hire them.

That Bischoff had success against McMahon, despite basically just being an announcer, shows how fallible Vince was and is. Vince is his own biggest weakness, but no one has a bigger cushion to fall back on when he inevitably falls down. I will say though that WWE would be more difficult to take on now with the wrestling PPV market nearly dead and with no promotion with a built in stronghold as WCW had... though Vince is certainly a bigger liability now than he was in the 90s.
 

Kimi

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Reminder that TNA once had freaken Kazuchika Okada and New Japan was so pissed off about how that went, they ended the relationship.
NJPW was also pissed that TNA changed the IWGP tag titles without asking them too, which happened at the same time.
 

Sarcastic

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I think Meltzer and Alvarez talked about it this week and basically said they were too busy following how WCW failed that the ring was irrelevant.
 

ManofSteel55

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Aug 15, 2013
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No. New Japan has always had a better in ring product than TNA, and TNA was only going to find that niche with the best in ring product. When they had their biggest fanbase, they had that in ring product with Joe/AJ/Daniels running the X Division and Kong/Gail Kim putting on MOTY candidates in the Knockouts division - but those feuds, as good as they were - weren't enough to sustain prolonged popularity. They needed more guys and gals on that level, and while they had great depth up until Hogan started monkeying with things, they didn't have quite the top end talent that New Japan did.

Plus, they always seemed to have at least one angle going that was stupid and took away from the show.
 

The Gongshow

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I actually used to watch TNA and keep up with it. The feuds and matches were all awesome. I even enjoyed Christian and Angle being there. However, I stopped watching as soon as Hogan/Flair/Bishof/Nash all showed up. Its a good thing to because it all went to hell.
 

scrubadam

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That Bischoff had success against McMahon, despite basically just being an announcer, shows how fallible Vince was and is. Vince is his own biggest weakness, but no one has a bigger cushion to fall back on when he inevitably falls down. I will say though that WWE would be more difficult to take on now with the wrestling PPV market nearly dead and with no promotion with a built in stronghold as WCW had... though Vince is certainly a bigger liability now than he was in the 90s.

Bischoff was more than an announcer, he was one of the most innovative exec's in wrestling. He helped to transform WCW and had it as the number 1 organization in the world making 100's of millions of dollars. If not for Bischoff there would be no monthly PPV's, no live primetime wrestling with feature matches (RAW was 1 hour taped with mainly jobber matches). Bischoff was huge in innovating the business and pushing it forward.

Vince is a genius pro wrestling PROMOTER and no one can touch him. Again just talking about the PROMOTING part, separate that from storylines or how much he pushes Reigns. No one can PROMOTE wrestling like VKM and the WWE machine. NXT is the perfect example. Its farther along then ROH/TNA and has been around for like 1/3rd of the time. That's Promoting.

And the PPV business is dead because of Vince being a genius in promoting and understanding the direction the business is going in. Vince(or the WWE machine) created the network to devalue PPV's. PPV's were already on the decline, and by charging 9.99 for what at some times can be 3 PPV's a shot it killed anyone elses chance to compete. And now all the other guys want to jump on the train with ROH/TNA/NJPW all getting their own streaming services. But you don't get to the top by following you get their by leading. Vince disrupted the industry and now every one has to follow.

I do agree that VKM is a bit out of touch and someone like HHH would be better in charge. But as long as VKM is around no one out there will be able to PROMOTE wrestling better.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Bischoff was more than an announcer, he was one of the most innovative exec's in wrestling. He helped to transform WCW and had it as the number 1 organization in the world making 100's of millions of dollars. If not for Bischoff there would be no monthly PPV's, no live primetime wrestling with feature matches (RAW was 1 hour taped with mainly jobber matches). Bischoff was huge in innovating the business and pushing it forward.

Vince is a genius pro wrestling PROMOTER and no one can touch him. Again just talking about the PROMOTING part, separate that from storylines or how much he pushes Reigns. No one can PROMOTE wrestling like VKM and the WWE machine. NXT is the perfect example. Its farther along then ROH/TNA and has been around for like 1/3rd of the time. That's Promoting.

And the PPV business is dead because of Vince being a genius in promoting and understanding the direction the business is going in. Vince(or the WWE machine) created the network to devalue PPV's. PPV's were already on the decline, and by charging 9.99 for what at some times can be 3 PPV's a shot it killed anyone elses chance to compete. And now all the other guys want to jump on the train with ROH/TNA/NJPW all getting their own streaming services. But you don't get to the top by following you get their by leading. Vince disrupted the industry and now every one has to follow.

I do agree that VKM is a bit out of touch and someone like HHH would be better in charge. But as long as VKM is around no one out there will be able to PROMOTE wrestling better.

You aren't strengthening McMahon's case. Bischoff was an announcer with just a few years in the wrestling business when he was randomly made a WCW executive and all of a sudden within just ~3 years he had WCW ahead of WWF in the ratings. That reflects poorly on Vince McMahon. There is no reason that Vince couldn't and shouldn't have done almost everything that Bischoff did before he was forced to. I don't see how NXT reflects on Vince at all. I also understand thee network move, though I'm not sure how much credit Vince gets for killing off PPV but not making a huge success of the network given the resources at his disposal. We could also look at Vince massive promotional failures, but I don't think that is necessary.

Reality is that Vince's father owned the largest and most lucrative wrestling promotion in the United States (and presumably the world). Vince deserves credit for taking advantage of that, but he was basically born on third (maybe second) base. I'm not going to give him credit for hitting a home run or call him a genius. Vince was very smart to invest in production values and to tie wrestling into pop culture. That was crucial to his success and he deserves credit for it. A huge part of his success was talent raids though, and he was only able to do that because of whose son he was. Vince was very privileged in the world of wrestling, when he has tried his hand in promotion outside of wrestling his results have been very middling.
 

sabremike

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Aug 30, 2010
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To quote Jim Cornette:"There are only two people in history who conquered the world: Alexander the Great and Vince McMahon." Anyone who would argue that Vince isn't the greatest wrestling promoter who ever lived is just nuts. He has his idiocincricities but the results speak for themselves. Bischoff got WCW to the top and then imploded as fast as he got there. There is never going to be a serious challenger to WWE's dominance of the industry in America because the cost to really compete with them is prohibitive.
 

CaptainCrunch67

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Aug 23, 2005
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Bischoff had one great idea that he basically stole from Japan and improved, and then he rode it into the ground, and had nothing else.

While he had the NWO going I think he knew that it would end and he couldn't come up with a story line outside of or after it that wasn't on the same level as Vince Russo.

What also made him a poor promoter, Exec, Story Teller is that he panicked too often and gave away things for free that could have made a ton of money.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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You aren't strengthening McMahon's case. Bischoff was an announcer with just a few years in the wrestling business when he was randomly made a WCW executive and all of a sudden within just ~3 years he had WCW ahead of WWF in the ratings. That reflects poorly on Vince McMahon. There is no reason that Vince couldn't and shouldn't have done almost everything that Bischoff did before he was forced to. I don't see how NXT reflects on Vince at all. I also understand thee network move, though I'm not sure how much credit Vince gets for killing off PPV but not making a huge success of the network given the resources at his disposal. We could also look at Vince massive promotional failures, but I don't think that is necessary.

Reality is that Vince's father owned the largest and most lucrative wrestling promotion in the United States (and presumably the world). Vince deserves credit for taking advantage of that, but he was basically born on third (maybe second) base. I'm not going to give him credit for hitting a home run or call him a genius. Vince was very smart to invest in production values and to tie wrestling into pop culture. That was crucial to his success and he deserves credit for it. A huge part of his success was talent raids though, and he was only able to do that because of whose son he was. Vince was very privileged in the world of wrestling, when he has tried his hand in promotion outside of wrestling his results have been very middling.

I don't think we have to make a checklist of what VKM did and what % of credit he deserves. Bottom line for VKM is he took wrestling into the mainstream and has turned it into a close to billion dollar business. If I am not mistaken WWE made 750 or so Million last year. How much did ROH or NJPW or TNA make again?

Everything you listed above may be true, but that's part of VKM being a great PROMOTER. If he had to get other talent and PROMOTED them better so his org made more money and drew more than more power to him. If he put other people in place and delegated to them good for him. That's the job of the PROMOTER put butts in the seats and separate marks from their money and VKM (and the WWE machine that he created) are the best at doing that.

NXT was just to show how the WWE can get behind something and PROMOTE it to the point where it is more established and a bigger draw than other organizations that have been at it for 10 or 15 years. NXT is bigger than ROH and TNA and those companies have 15 years or so of history while NXT has been around for like 5 years. And its not like NXT got WWE stars on their show. They took talent from elsewhere and PROMOTED the brand better than other companies who had these guys. That's the job of a PROMOTER. Take something and get more people to pay to watch it.

Vince failed in other avenues so I am sticking to wrestling only. He sucks with football and bodybuilding he gets no credit from me for that. But when it comes to wrestling nobody can touch him.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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Bischoff had one great idea that he basically stole from Japan and improved, and then he rode it into the ground, and had nothing else.

While he had the NWO going I think he knew that it would end and he couldn't come up with a story line outside of or after it that wasn't on the same level as Vince Russo.

What also made him a poor promoter, Exec, Story Teller is that he panicked too often and gave away things for free that could have made a ton of money.

Bischoff was more than the NWO though. NWO was huge, especially Hogan's heel turn but Bischoff deserves credit for expanding the PPV's, live NITRO, featured matches and creating the competitive environment that allowed for wrestlers to get big pay days.

He pissed it all away in the end but his run from about 96-99 was pretty great as far as the WCW brand goes. In the end I don't think he had it in him to keep going and if he bought WCW I think it would have flopped in due time. But a lot of his innovations drove the business forward and pushed it out of the dumps it was in from 93-pre NWO days. Take away all the talent he signed, live Nitro, 12 PPV a year and just leave the NWO and WCW probably never beats WWE in anything.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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Bischoff never made 100s of millions. He lost 100s of millions. They are very different things.

In one of the years of 96/97 or 98 he made up all the loses that WCW had accumulated. Yes by 2000 and after they went on to re lose all that money but he had a good 3 or so year run where he turned WCW's business around from a money losing venture to an extremely profitable one.
 

Kimi

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Except he didn't. He spent a ton of money and had a hot period, and then the company died. For that period the company was run like trash, it made money despite it's self. Nothing was really turned around, it just got hot and kept going down the path into destruction.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I don't think we have to make a checklist of what VKM did and what % of credit he deserves. Bottom line for VKM is he took wrestling into the mainstream and has turned it into a close to billion dollar business. If I am not mistaken WWE made 750 or so Million last year. How much did ROH or NJPW or TNA make again?

Everything you listed above may be true, but that's part of VKM being a great PROMOTER. If he had to get other talent and PROMOTED them better so his org made more money and drew more than more power to him. If he put other people in place and delegated to them good for him. That's the job of the PROMOTER put butts in the seats and separate marks from their money and VKM (and the WWE machine that he created) are the best at doing that.

NXT was just to show how the WWE can get behind something and PROMOTE it to the point where it is more established and a bigger draw than other organizations that have been at it for 10 or 15 years. NXT is bigger than ROH and TNA and those companies have 15 years or so of history while NXT has been around for like 5 years. And its not like NXT got WWE stars on their show. They took talent from elsewhere and PROMOTED the brand better than other companies who had these guys. That's the job of a PROMOTER. Take something and get more people to pay to watch it.

Vince failed in other avenues so I am sticking to wrestling only. He sucks with football and bodybuilding he gets no credit from me for that. But when it comes to wrestling nobody can touch him.

I hope you realize that CAPITALIZATION doesn't make a point STRONGER or MORE accuRATE. Vince didn't create the "machine" THAT you are describing - he inherited the world's largest wrestling promotion FROM his father. In the territory DAYS Vince Sr. had the biggest, MOST lucrative territory. No other promotion, even the NWA, could stand up to Vince Sr. when push came to shove. Vince Jr. took over from his more traditional father and broke THE system that had been in place. Credit TO Vince for pulling it off and the THINGS that I already mentioned, but no ONEe was in a more advantageous position than him. That A literal wrestling announcer was able to take WCW and beat Vince Jr. at his own game, even FOR just the short PERIOD that he did, REFLECTS very poorly on Vince. That NXT succeeds basically because IT removed Vince from the equation while taking advantage OF THE lack of competition in the wrestling world can't be spun to be a factor in his favour.

Vince is a good promoter, not a great one. He was handed the most advantageous position in the industry and deserves credit for not ruining it. He deserves credit for expanding it. If he was a promotional genius though it wouldn't have been such a bumpy ride at times and the WWE of today (essentially a monopoly) would be in a better place.
 

Natey

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Aug 2, 2005
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No, because even without Hogan they would have never been able to shake the stigma of being the land of the WWE castoffs/rejects.

If they would have kept up with the homegrown/indie movement (Joe/AJ/Daniels/Angle since his name was still worth something after WWE let him go) then maybe.

Angle and Christian are the only two guys TNA picked off the WWE heap that were actually able to either help the company or evolve into something TNA could work with. The rest were castoffs and thus no one wanted to see them.
Eh Jeff was pretty good for them despite his downfall.

But crap like Booker T, Matt Morgan, Scott Steiner, etc were just awful additions.
 

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