Would Portland Oregon be a good place for an NHL team?

[Ogopogo*]

Another "our game" thinker, added to my ignore list.

Another "business" thinker. You sound like a college student idealist. When people get out of college and experience the real world, they begin to understand how it really works and learn that many of the grandiose theories you talk about between classes have no chance of ever working.

Ask any intelligent business person the best way to expand their company. First, you set up shop and sell to the people that want your product. Then, you can consider branching out into areas where it is a much harder sell.

Putting a team in Seattle, Portland or Kansas City ahead of Hamilton or Quebec is simply foolish. Take money from the people that want to give it to you THEN think about going into non-hockey markets.

It is smarter to open another Tim Horton's in Edmonton than it is in Phoenix. You open a Tim's here and you will have lineups for coffee every day. I know, a new one just opened close to my house and the lineups are long. Open one in Phoenix and people don't know what it is - and it will take them a long time to catch on before you ever see a lineup. Hopefully you survive long enough to get to that point.

If I am spending money on a Tim Horton's franchise or an NHL franchise, I am doing it in Canada long before I try some American market that needs to be convinced of my product.

It is called smart business.

 

[MoreOrr]

Foolishness. Think about that for a minute: Don't sell your product to people that want it, rather try to get people who don't want it to pay for it.

Businesses really do both. Of course you sell to those who want it, but you likely charge more. While also offering the product to those who haven't fully developed an interest because they have really been exposed to it. The second is a risk, of course, and should always be considered as such. But both options offer potential benefit, if you believe that your product is good.

 

[Breakaway3527]

I would put Seattle and Milwaukee way ahead of Quebec. Lock it in while you have the chance. The long term gains are much higher than the gains in Quebec. If it wasn't for the arena situation Seattle would of had a team 20 years ago.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I would put Seattle and Milwaukee way ahead of Quebec. Lock it in while you have the chance. The long term gains are much higher than the gains in Quebec. If it wasn't for the arena situation Seattle would of had a team 20 years ago.

Milwaukee's an even more unlikely choice as it, like Indianapolis, is already ridiculously oversaturated as a sports market. Milwaukee's metro area has 400k less people then Portland's and they already have the Brewers, Bucks, Packers (even though they're in Green Bay), Badgers, and, to a lesser extent, Marquette on their sports radar. Putting an NHL team there would stretch their entertainment dollars past the limit, almost assuredly killing the Bucks and/or the new NHL team before long.

 

[barneyg]

I would put Seattle and Milwaukee way ahead of Quebec. Lock it in while you have the chance. The long term gains are much higher than the gains in Quebec. If it wasn't for the arena situation Seattle would of had a team 20 years ago.

Let's face it, if "long term gains" were the main objective, the NHL would still be in Atlanta and there would be absolutely no talk of Phoenix leaving. (There'd be a team in Houston too.) The question is "how big are those long-term gains when they are partially offset by short-term losses", and if you know basic finance, what is your discount rate.

 

[Andrew Knoll]

How can someone compare Houston and Portland? Houston dwarfs Portland. To me, the standard of living, business infrastructure and population are just not there in Portland. I wouldn't mind seeing a team in Seattle but the tax payers forked out for two new stadiums, passed on a third and they have money issues with roads and stuff like that from my understanding, deeper infrastructural stuff. No NBA team is a huge plus there IMO. Portland has a team, I dunno if the NHL would be enthusiastic about the Rose Garden though or that Allen would be amped about an NHL team whether he was involved or not.

Houston would be an OK destination but I do agree it would be a lot like Dallas, maybe even a little weaker.

Milwaukee I don't see happening, they supported the Bucks when they were winning but like a lot of markets (Detroit, Philadelphia) they have gone from top-five-ish in attendance to bottom-five-ish. It's above average in terms of sports interest and there is some hockey culture there but I don't see it as a short-list option.

I still think KC is in line for a team because they will be aggressive about it and they have a facility. The success of Winnipeg has hugely bolstered the once slim chances of Quebec City and really Canadian destinations in general. Still sticky to get a second team in the Toronto area but maybe. Any of those I could see before Portland or Milwaukee really.

 

[Nuclear SUV]

Putting a team in Seattle, Portland or Kansas City ahead of Hamilton or Quebec is simply foolish.

Disagree with Seattle. More potential to make big $ in Seattle than anywhere else you list.

Think TV money. Rather, think owning a TV network money.

 

[Brodie]

Portland is much more affluent than Houston (to the tune of $10k more in median family income annually) and there's something to be said for being in the smaller (growing) market that gives you better regional coverage.

Portland and Seattle are pretty much perfect for the NHL... growing, affluent, young, tech savvy cities neither of which are tapped in terms of sports dollars. Houston is large and growing, but most of that growth is working class and a heavy amount of it is based on immigration, it's loaded with sports teams (3 of the Big 4, MLS, numerous large colleges in the area and state and a large portion of that immigrant population follows FMF closely) and provides nothing Dallas doesn't in terms of the TV map. The only reason to put a team in Houston is population, but as Winnipeg proves that's hardly the whole story.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

seattle, portland, and houston are the best american cities to try out IMO, especially seattle. milwaukee would be prolly be ok if they didn't have the bucks. plus a lot of people in wisconsin are blackhawks, wild, or even red wings fans. hartford seems kinda dumb just cause there's 3 nyc metro teams and boston surrounding it, kinda like milwaukee with chicago and minnesota. people in kansas city should just cheer for the blues; it seems like kc would be another atlanta or phoenix. i think quebec city will be next to get a team though

 

[Lars65]

That's a very good point Brodie. I wonder sometimes if smaller, yet more affluent U.S. centers wouldn't be successful. If arenas were kept reasonably sized, like the MTS Centre is, I think there could be lots of money to be made. After all there are a lot of mid-sized US cities around.

 

[Dolemite]

Little known fact - When Mario Lemieux threatened to move the Penguins (pre-arena deal) the people running the Rose Garden in Portland were one of the first people on the phone asking about bringing the team there. At the time, the Rose Garden (short of a locker room re-model) was and still is an NHL ready arena.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

almost assuredly killing the Bucks

Already happened.

 

[Jazz]

Foolishness. Think about that for a minute: Don't sell your product to people that want it, rather try to get people who don't want it to pay for it.

Good luck with that. Ever heard of Phoenix?

Successful business do not have insular thinking and not try to expand their product's reach.

Like all business, and every other sport that is trying to spread their product, the NHL's main goal is to create new fans, not divert existing ones.

Can't help but laugh at all the Canadians who cheer when a 'non-traditional' city does not support hockey the way we do up here - they are basically happy that the sport they love and care for did not succeed elsewhere....

 

[htpwn]

Successful business do not have insular thinking and not try to expand their product's reach.

Like all business, and every other sport that is trying to spread their product, the NHL's main goal is to create new fans, not divert existing ones.

Can't help but laugh at all the Canadians who cheer when a 'non-traditional' city does not support hockey the way we do up here - they are basically happy that the sport they love and care for did not succeed elsewhere....

Successful businesses also tend not to over expand into new markets, especially at the expense of existing ones.

Yet, the NHL did just that.

 

[beenhereandthere]

Successful business do not have insular thinking and not try to expand their product's reach.

Like all business, and every other sport that is trying to spread their product, the NHL's main goal is to create new fans, not divert existing ones.

Can't help but laugh at all the Canadians who cheer when a 'non-traditional' city does not support hockey the way we do up here - they are basically happy that the sport they love and care for did not succeed elsewhere....

Love the last paragraph.
From a Canadian even.
Will bookmark this quote for sure.

 

[GKJ]

Keep Portland Weird

 

[MoreOrr]

Could a team in Seattle be the key to getting a team in Portland?

 

[landfill]

Could a team in Seattle be the key to getting a team in Portland?

Can't see Portland ever having a basketball team and a nhl team due too population base.

Seattle has more than three times the polulation base, if there is an nhl ready arena there, a team will follow shortly after. If threre would have been a better option than key arena in the 90's they would have had a expansion team then.

 

[Nuclear SUV]

Can't see Portland ever having a basketball team and a nhl team due too population base.

Seattle has more than three times the polulation base, if there is an nhl ready arena there, a team will follow shortly after.

Metro Portland is about half the size of Seattle. If you add nearby Salem, a separate census area, Portland has over 2.6 million people. It is certainly large enough population wise. Portland also lacks NFL and MLB, so less saturation.

There is the concern that the overlapping NBA and NHL seasons would harm each other, but since both play during the cruddy winter weather months, this is not a big concern to me. My biggest concern is Portland's corporate base. Portland is a big hub for many companies, but it does not have the corporate headquarters base of other peer cities.

 

[Rocko604]

Can't see Portland ever having a basketball team and a nhl team due too population base.

Pittsburgh seems to do just fine with NFL, MLB, NHL and NCAA Div 1.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Pittsburgh seems to do just fine with NFL, MLB, NHL and NCAA Div 1.

Difference is you have to make apples to apples comparisons when it comes to supporting multiple pro sports teams. You can't really compare Pittsburgh with three pro sports to Portland with potentially the NHL and the NBA, for the simple fact that the season overlap between the NBA and NHL is significantly more massive than it is between the NFL, MLB, and NHL, not only in the time period itself but in the number of games that overlap as well.

The problem is that you'd have to compare Portland with what it would become, a metro area with NBA and NHL teams, and they would be by far the smallest market with teams in both sports. According to the recent U.S. census, the Portland metro area has a population of just over 2.2 million people. Now, compare that to joint NHL/NBA markets. The two smallest metro areas with both the NHL and the NBA are Denver and Minneapolis-St. Paul, which have populations of 3.1 and 3.6 million respectively. In other words, if Portland got an NHL team as well, they'd be close to having 900,000 less people then the next smallest market with teams in both leagues.

Plus, look at Vancouver's example, which is actually very similarly sized with Portland. When that metro area got the Grizzlies, the result was a temporary dip in Canucks attendance following by a rebound for the already established team and an eventual collapse for the newly arrived team. For Vancouver, it was the NHL team that survived and the NBA team that floundered, so one could definitely make the argument that the model's there for the reverse to happen in Portland.

Source of population info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_Canadian_cities_by_number_of_major_professional_sports_franchises

A metro area only has so much disposable income to spend on entertainment, not only in a given year but at certain parts of a year. There's little to no doubt in my mind that a market like Portland could sustain an MLB team's arrival, even though it costs significantly more to support a team in that league then a team in the NHL, simply because it's a decent-sized market and a huge chunk of the MLB season would be competition-free from a pro sports viewpoint. However, I do have doubts about Portland simultaneously supporting the NHL and NBA, as the two teams would be competing for identical dollars and the success of one could very easily cause the detriment of the other as their regular seasons and postseasons overlap almost entirely.

 

[Rocko604]

However, I do have doubts about Portland simultaneously supporting the NHL and NBA, as the two teams would be competing for identical dollars and the success of one could very easily cause the detriment of the other as their regular seasons and postseasons overlap almost entirely.

My thoughts echo yours, tbh. Since the argument was based on Portland's population, I was just using Pittsburgh, who have a similar metro population as Portland and three pro teams plus NCAA, as my counter.

 

[Offdapost*]

Could a team in Seattle be the key to getting a team in Portland?

this definitely, there is definitely a small rivalry brewing between the two cities

 

[Shawa666]

this definitely, there is definitely a small rivalry brewing between the two cities

I know another potential rivalry! Quebec Montreal!

Oh, wait, it already exists, the anglos call it the battle of quebec, we call it la guerre de la 20

 

[Big McLargehuge]

To build on the Pittsburgh talk...the overlap would be detrimental in a way to Portland, just because the schedules overlap each other so much more than the NFL and MLB teams do in Pittsburgh...but I still think it's being overstated there as the two sports do tend to cater to a different crowd and the only real harm done to the Penguins during Steelers season is that they're 3rd page news instead of 1st...the ratings and attendance don't slip, and when the team was struggling the attendance difference was fairly minimal from my experience (though the fact the NFL is a spectacle sport, playing only once a week, may have played into that). The biggest reason I think Pittsburgh couldn't support an NBA team is that the fan's dollar is already stretched thin...putting another team there would be asking a Rust Belt city too much. Portland's population base is significantly more affluent than Pittsburgh's and is greatly under-served. The money factor does a lot to compensate for the population questions in my opinion.

I would say that, if Seattle gets a NHL team, Portland would be best to look more at the NFL or MLB instead of the NHL...but there isn't a stadium in place for those (Jeld-Wyn Field is the only game in town, really, as far as stadiums go...and the renovations to turn it into a MLS stadium would up kicking the long-standing Beavers AAA baseball team out...Portland State still uses it as their home football field). The Rose Garden, on the other hand, would be NHL ready today.

Portland needs a 2nd team...it's just hard to get the circumstances to line-up where that seems likely in the near future. I don't see a new stadium getting built there with public funds, they'd be 3rd or 4th at best on the NFL relocation list, and outside of a couple possible stadium plans falling apart the MLB doesn't really have any mobile franchises (Tampa Bay is the only one I see as a possibility if they can't get their stadium built...but they're in no immediate danger at all...Oakland would be in danger if they can't get their stadium, but I fully expect that they will be making the small move to San Jose within 5 years). The NHL would have significantly fewer hurdles to jump over to get a team in Portland.

I still think it could work. Portland is an under-served market, and an affluent one at that...I'm not worried about the fans not being willing to spend the money to support two teams going simultaneously.

I wouldn't put them atop the relocation list in any circumstance...Seattle tops Portland because of the population and their status as the regional hub and I'd put a team in Quebec if I could...but I'd rather see a team in Portland than a new second team in an already-served market or Hamilton.