Would Portland Oregon be a good place for an NHL team?

[The Wumpus]

I think Seattle would be a great place for a team, were it not for the arena issue. It has a much stronger corporate presence and more disposable income than Portland, as well as a winter sport void left by the departed Sonics. The arena situation is a deal-killer though.

 

[JamieG]

What would interesting to see is a breakdown of the nationally covered games (VS and NBC) and see how specific markets do in terms of watching games. Throw out the markets with teams already, and then of the remaining markets see which ones perform the best on a per capita basis. Then determine if the market is big enough to support a pro team (ie some small town might have the largest viewership per capita, but clearly cant support a team)

Not exactly what you're talking about, but I found this interesting:

It's from 2010, after the Olympics. Milwaukee was among the highest rated cities for the Gold Medal game. Only Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Minneapolis had higher ratings than Milwaukee.

http://*******************/articles/355307-milwaukee-wisconsin-the-next-home-to-an-nhl-franchise

I'd love to see Portland and Milwaukee with teams. Move the Islanders and the Panthers! The Islanders have the nice winning tradition (an increasingly long time ago...) but their attendance sucks and there's no reason why the New York/New Jersey market should have 3 teams.

I think it would be good for the NHL to a team in Northwest U.S.

I agree with someone else that Paul Allen is the problem. He's not enthralled about the NHL and if it's not him, they're screwed because of the arena. The talk is in this day and age of the NHL a team has to own the arena or else it's going to be tough.

 

[JamieG]

Sounds like Seattle is more likely than Portland. Damn Paul Allen!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/report-seattle-group-interested-in-nhl-team/article2035939/

Report: Seattle group interested in NHL team

Seattle's KING5 TV is reporting that a local group is interested in luring a National Hockey League team to the Emerald City.

“We’ve had discussions with a group in Seattle,†NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly told the station earlier this week. “Certainly [there are] people who are interested in having NHL hockey in Seattle. I would rather not get into specifics to be fair to that group, or the process.â€

Daly questioned the suitability of Key Arena, the former home of the NBA’s Sonics, which has “obstructed view†seats for hockey, a strong hint that a new facility would be needed before Seattle can seriously pursue a team. Daly said he did not believe the Seattle group was willing to act in time for the 2011-12 NHL season, but that the league was “intrigued†by a potential rivalry with the Vancouver Canucks.

 

[vipernsx]

IMO the NHL needs to start using the AHL more effectively. They need to start shifting their AHL farms to cities that are near their NHL clubs and that help spread the NHL with the idea of AHL/NHL divisional alignment.

Cities like Portland & Seatle can host AHL farm teams for neighboring NHL farm clubs like San Jose or Vancouver respectively. Then their corresponding parent could cross market and host exhibitions during preseason, etc. Really, what does a fan in Worcester MA care about San Jose, CA? Worcester is a college town and no one in Mass is up late enough to watch a SJ game so no one is following prospects when they get promoted.

Do the same in the SW. Phx, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Utah should all have AHL farm teams for Dallas, LA, Anaheim, Colorado, etc.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Dallas has their AHL team just outside of Austin. They're not going to move a team in Texas out of state. Phoenix already has an NHL team, why put an AHL team there?

 

[pdxshark]

man, even portland residents don't fully understand the situation. Allen didn't "investigate" bringing an NHL team, he had a bid in on the penguins but a federal judge awarded them to Lemieux.

Also, forbes stated portland was one of the top cities for untapped disposable income for sports. Hawks may have drew 11k to a playoff game this season but look at the WHL record books for attendance, they're #1 with 19k for a regular season game.

Also, most people in this town I talk to about sports say they like hockey but they don't want to watch the winterhawks cause they want to watch professional sports not "kids".

Portland as a city would support the NHL just fine. The problem is and has always been Paul Allen (ironically the same thing hindering the blazers success). Portland is an affluent city, a "trust fund" city if you will. Plenty of people would drop cash to see a professional hockey game and there are plenty of corporate sponsors available.

Why was it that Portland was the original winnipeg? Every team threatened to move to portland in the NHL or MLB to get a new arena. Also no team would ever play in the Key Arena...if it forced the sonics out (and the thunderbirds) why would it draw an NHL team? All in all, nobody is going to be convinced Portland can support an NHL team until it actually happens.

 

[Dolemite]

Paul Allen looked into a few years ago and he did not think Portland could support a team

However, a few years before that when the Penguins threatened to move from the area (before the new arena deal was sealed), Portland was one of the first cities on the Phone asking about a move.

Portland in Oregon has a fairly new facility that has an NHL capacity, now I haven't researched other details besides that, that's why I'm asking if it could work there?

The WHL Winterhawks hold most of the league's attendance records. Even though they closed the upper level for the WHL Finals, the games in Portland were sell outs.

http://whl.ca/page/whl-record-book

19,103 - Portland Winter Hawks, at Rose Garden, versus Seattle Thunderbirds, March 15, 1997. Teams tied 6-6.
19,017 - Calgary Hitmen, at Pengrowth Saddledome versus Saskatoon Blades, March 11, 2007. Hitmen won 5-1.
18,655 - Portland Winter Hawks, at Rose Garden, versus Saskatoon Blades, October 26, 1995. Winter Hawks won 5-4.
18,279 - Calgary Hitmen, at Pengrowth Saddledome versus Red Deer March 11, 2005. Hitmen and Rebels tied 2-2.
18,028 - Calgary Hitmen, at Pengrowth Saddledome vs Kootenay Ice March 13, 2005. Ice won 4-2.
17,520 - Portland Winter Hawks, at Rose Garden, versus Kamloops Blazers, March 16, 1996. Blazers won 6-2.
16,850 - Portland Winter Hawks, at Rose Garden, versus Kamloops Blazers, January 20, 1996. Blazers won 3-0.
16,814 - Portland Winter Hawks, at Rose Garden, versus Seattle Thunderbirds, December 31, 1997. Winter Hawks won 4-3.

Also, forbes stated portland was one of the top cities for untapped disposable income for sports. Hawks may have drew 11k to a playoff game this season but look at the WHL record books for attendance, they're #1 with 19k for a regular season game.

Plus there's some weird company named Nike who has their world headquarters located in that neck of the woods.

 

[pdxshark]

However, a few years before that when the Penguins threatened to move from the area (before the new arena deal was sealed), Portland was one of the first cities on the Phone asking about a move.



The WHL Winterhawks hold most of the league's attendance records. Even though they closed the upper level for the WHL Finals, the games in Portland were sell outs.

http://whl.ca/page/whl-record-book





Plus there's some weird company named Nike who has their world headquarters located in that neck of the woods.

Plus major facilities for Intel and Addidas. Not to mentioning high tech is starting to pickup again in this region. In fact Intel was a driving force for the late season attendance for the hawks. Seems they worked out a deal with the winterhawks where Intel employees could pickup tickets on gameday and the hawks would just bill Intel based on who attended.

Lets connect some dots here. Billionare owner (Bill Gallacher)? Check. Big Arena (with a terrible landlord) Check. Billionare owner hiring an NHL caliber staff for a WHL team? Check. Junior team fostering pro level relationships with regional businesses? Check.

I've said it before, Gallacher's purchase of the winterhawks and the way he's managed the team seems like a dry run for an NHL franchise. Whether it happens in Portland remains to be seen.

PS. The NHL would be LUCKY to have a guy like Gallacher. He's been total class since day one here in portland and is the ideal owner for any franchise. He came in and respected a fanbase that was dying after years of neglect from some owners running the team on a shoe string budget and playing politics with local government. He hires intelligent people and lets them do their job with minimal interference. The result? Check out the prospects forum and look at how many times "Portland Winterhawks" shows up.

 

[Mr. T]

Plus major facilities for Intel and Addidas. Not to mentioning high tech is starting to pickup again in this region. In fact Intel was a driving force for the late season attendance for the hawks. Seems they worked out a deal with the winterhawks where Intel employees could pickup tickets on gameday and the hawks would just bill Intel based on who attended.

Lets connect some dots here. Billionare owner (Bill Gallacher)? Check. Big Arena (with a terrible landlord) Check. Billionare owner hiring an NHL caliber staff for a WHL team? Check. Junior team fostering pro level relationships with regional businesses? Check.

I've said it before, Gallacher's purchase of the winterhawks and the way he's managed the team seems like a dry run for an NHL franchise. Whether it happens in Portland remains to be seen.

PS. The NHL would be LUCKY to have a guy like Gallacher. He's been total class since day one here in portland and is the ideal owner for any franchise. He came in and respected a fanbase that was dying after years of neglect from some owners running the team on a shoe string budget and playing politics with local government. He hires intelligent people and lets them do their job with minimal interference. The result? Check out the prospects forum and look at how many times "Portland Winterhawks" shows up.

Excellent post.

 

[james bond]

IIRC Mr Gallacher was set to buy the Dallas Stars in 2010 when his Athabasca Oil Sands stock price took a plunge. Since then it has had a good rebound. Maybe now he has a change of heart. The other dots to connect are that he would move the Winter Hawks to Nanaimo, BC although I think Wenatchee would be the better choice, IMO.

 

[Blacksheep71]

Plus major facilities for Intel and Addidas. Not to mentioning high tech is starting to pickup again in this region. In fact Intel was a driving force for the late season attendance for the hawks. Seems they worked out a deal with the winterhawks where Intel employees could pickup tickets on gameday and the hawks would just bill Intel based on who attended.

Lets connect some dots here. Billionare owner (Bill Gallacher)? Check. Big Arena (with a terrible landlord) Check. Billionare owner hiring an NHL caliber staff for a WHL team? Check. Junior team fostering pro level relationships with regional businesses? Check.

I've said it before, Gallacher's purchase of the winterhawks and the way he's managed the team seems like a dry run for an NHL franchise. Whether it happens in Portland remains to be seen.

PS. The NHL would be LUCKY to have a guy like Gallacher. He's been total class since day one here in portland and is the ideal owner for any franchise. He came in and respected a fanbase that was dying after years of neglect from some owners running the team on a shoe string budget and playing politics with local government. He hires intelligent people and lets them do their job with minimal interference. The result? Check out the prospects forum and look at how many times "Portland Winterhawks" shows up.

And lets not forget that there is also NIKE and COLUMBIA just HQ'd down the road.

There is a precedent for an NHL-WHL link.

The Calgary Hitmen (WHL) are owned by the Calgary Flames (NHL) and both play at the Saddledome. Combined with the NLL Roughnecks, the arena gets heavy usage, at least 77 home games before considering playoffs. The Winterhawks play most of their games at the Memorial Coliseum so I can't imagine more than 90 home fixtures at the Rose Garden Arena.

 

[LeftCoast]

Either Portland or Seattle would be great hockey markets, but currently each has their own unique obstacles.

Seattle has a larger population (3.5M metro), vastly greater corporate base and currently doesn't have the NBA. Seattle also has more than its share of billionaires as potential owners. Seattle (and area) has a history of supporting junior hockey with the T-Birds, Everett Silvertips and Tacoma Rockets, but it takes a lot more support for an NHL team. But Seattle doesn't have an NHL caliber arena and there is no appetite for public financing of one. The Tacoma Dome is a suitable temporary arena, but it needs an ice plant. As Bill Daly said, Seattle in a compelling market, but it would be very difficult to do anything for the 2012-13 season. Seattle is likely large enough to support both the NHL and NBA (along with NFL, MLB, MLS and UW Huskies). Any NHL proposal in Seattle would likely also include a bid or potential bid for an NBA franchise.

Portland has the population (2.2M metro), enough corporate support (Nike, Intel, Adidas, etc.), a turnkey NHL ready arena (Rose Garden), some billionaire potential owners and a history of supporting junior hockey (Winterhawks). There are rumours that Paul Allen would oppose an NHL team in Portland as he doesn't want competition with the Trailblazers. If this is true, it would be an insurmountable obstacle. Portland is one the most "turnkey" ready of any city to support the NHL, but it would take 2 things: The Winterhawks would have to move as I doubt the market is big enough for both, and it would need Paul Allen's support.


Houston is also turnkey, NHL ready.

 

[beenhereandthere]

man, even portland residents don't fully understand the situation. Allen didn't "investigate" bringing an NHL team, he had a bid in on the penguins but a federal judge awarded them to Lemieux.

Also, forbes stated portland was one of the top cities for untapped disposable income for sports. Hawks may have drew 11k to a playoff game this season but look at the WHL record books for attendance, they're #1 with 19k for a regular season game.

Also, most people in this town I talk to about sports say they like hockey but they don't want to watch the winterhawks cause they want to watch professional sports not "kids".

Portland as a city would support the NHL just fine. The problem is and has always been Paul Allen (ironically the same thing hindering the blazers success). Portland is an affluent city, a "trust fund" city if you will. Plenty of people would drop cash to see a professional hockey game and there are plenty of corporate sponsors available.

Why was it that Portland was the original winnipeg? Every team threatened to move to portland in the NHL or MLB to get a new arena. Also no team would ever play in the Key Arena...if it forced the sonics out (and the thunderbirds) why would it draw an NHL team? All in all, nobody is going to be convinced Portland can support an NHL team until it actually happens.

I think it's one of the top 5 US markets for a team, but my only concern is if there are enough corporate dollars for both the Blazers and an NHL team. Portland has 2.5 million within an hour drive, don't know if that's big enough.
Fan support, as far as attendance though, wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Portland will end up with a team eventually, I think they'd be a great market.

Paul Allen is the only thing preventing that from happening right now. Ever since he lost out on the Penguins he's seemed to ignore the existence of hockey and he owns the Rose Garden...so it would be hard to get around him blocking competition for his Blazers.

I think it's one of the top 5 US markets for a team, but my only concern is if there are enough corporate dollars for both the Blazers and an NHL team. Portland has 2.5 million within an hour drive, don't know if that's big enough.
Fan support, as far as attendance though, wouldn't be an issue at all.

Portland is a similar size to Pittsburgh (the 200k population advantage of Pittsburgh would be wiped out fairly easily by Portland being a far more affluent city) and only has the Blazers and Timbers...Portland is an under-served market in every sense.

 

[kdb209]

Paul Allen is the only thing preventing that from happening right now. Ever since he lost out on the Penguins he's seemed to ignore the existence of hockey and he owns the Rose Garden...so it would be hard to get around him blocking competition for his Blazers.

Expanding on my post earlier in this thread:

There were reports that Burke had a backup agreement to sell the 'Yotes to Allen in 2001 if the sale to Ellman fell through.

From the older NHL in Portland? (Mod - interested owner is not Allen but Gallacher) thread:

Portland Coyotes

It almost happened.

From last years Portland for the NHL thread:

What? Where did you get that? And Gretzky's stepping in effected it how?

That really interesting, if true.

Yup. Allen did kick the tires of the 'Yotes in 2000 when Burke sold them to Ellman - before the long running Ellman/Moyes/Glendale/Westgate/Reinsdorf/Balsillie/Rodier/Baum/Roman Numerals/NHL/Reinsdorf/IEH/Reinsdorf/IEH/Hulsizer soap opera. If that had happened, just what would we have done with our lives for the past year and a half?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2000/06/02/wayne000502.html

Gretzky joined the ownership group late last week after some eleventh-hour negotiating with Ellman.

If Ellman hadn't convinced Gretzky to come aboard, the Coyotes would have been sold Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen the next morning and relocated to Portland, Ore.

http://www.examiner.com/phoenix-coyotes-in-phoenix/phoenix-coyotes-101-what-is-jobing-com-arena

By 2001, the Coyotes were running out of time in the Valley of the Sun. With its obstructed view seats and lack of revenue for the Desert Dogs, they couldn’t survive at America West Arena any longer. Microsoft billionaire Paul Allen was on his way to purchase the team and move it to Portland, OR when Coyotes management reached a deal with the City of Glendale on a new arena and entertainment complex at the Loop 101 and Glendale Avenue.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2128012

Gretzky proved that NHL franchises could succeed in warm-weather cities after the Edmonton Oilers traded him to the Los Angeles Kings in 1988.

He already has been a hockey savior in Phoenix. The franchise was tottering amid near-weekly reports that it might be sold to Portland, Ore., billionaire Paul Allen when Gretzky decided to throw his influence behind Ellman in 2000.

Gretzky, Ellman and Jerry Moyes -- now the majority owner -- acquired the club in 2001 with a promise to keep the franchise in Arizona.

And more from the Kansas City still looking for team? thread:

But they have shown interest at varying times. Apparently Allen even offerred to take the Coyotes at one time a few years before things really got out hand there (don't have the link, sorry).

That was actually the Penguins, and the NHL contacted him, not visa versa. But that was so "last century".

No. Allen did also have an offer on the table for the 'Yotes in 2001 when Burke sold them to Ellman.

Apparently Bettman rejected the deal, but the deal stayed on the table as a Plan B in case the sale to Ellman and the Glendale deal fell through.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...ot-Done-Yet-Is-Paul-Allen-Still-A-Player.aspx

The $87M sale of the Coyotes, expected to be completed this week to Wayne Gretzky and Steve Ellman, "has been delayed again," according to Jay Greenberg of the N.Y. POST. Sources "close to Gretzky" said that he is "discouraged" by the delay after it "appeared the group had acquired a bank commitment to make up a $20[M] shortfall in the asking price." Gretzky: "It's been a tough situation for everyone involved, but the people in Phoenix have been very patient and this thing will come together." If the deal is not completed by mid-March, Coyotes Owner Richard Burke "will resume attempts to sell" the team to Trail Blazers/Seahawks Owner Paul Allen, who is likely to move the team to Portland (N.Y. POST, 2/5).

http://lubbockonline.com/stories/041900/pro_041900079.shtml

Bettman reportedly has been so determined to keep the franchise in Arizona that he rejected a proposal by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, owner of the NBA's Portland Trailblazers and the NFL's Seattle Seahawks, to buy the Coyotes and move the team to Portland.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

IMO the NHL needs to start using the AHL more effectively. They need to start shifting their AHL farms to cities that are near their NHL clubs and that help spread the NHL with the idea of AHL/NHL divisional alignment.

Cities like Portland & Seatle can host AHL farm teams for neighboring NHL farm clubs like San Jose or Vancouver respectively. Then their corresponding parent could cross market and host exhibitions during preseason, etc. Really, what does a fan in Worcester MA care about San Jose, CA? Worcester is a college town and no one in Mass is up late enough to watch a SJ game so no one is following prospects when they get promoted.

Do the same in the SW. Phx, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Utah should all have AHL farm teams for Dallas, LA, Anaheim, Colorado, etc.

you missed the point, vipernsx, when the Ice Cats were awarded to Worcester, the era was as different as it is now, how did Worcester fans feel when the Blues had so much success w/ Peoria that they brought them back in the ECHL, after the I collapsed, the other point you missed was Gilbert inherited the Sharks when he bought the real estate assets from the Gunds, who brought hockey to SJ, THE OTHER PROXIMITY is close to an airport as to why the Sharks were brought there, it just happened that both Anaheim and LA were already there.

Phoenix has struggled supporting the Road Runners in all its various forms, Las Vegas already has an ECHL franchise as it stands now, and Utah's ownership gave up after fighting both Dallas (affiliation fees), then skipping out on the Coyotes forcing them to go to San Antonio, until this past offseason, so that's how Gilbert got his own franchise to replace the Sharks.

 

[Ogopogo*]

really? like where?

US cities only - Canada doesn't count as it doesn't accomplish anything in the big picture for the NHL.





what? soccer is not more popular than hockey in the US. and i live in miami - where there is an incredible amount of latin americans. hockey is surviving here - soccer did not.

hahaha What exactly do you think the big picture is? Some NFL-style TV contract making ticket sales irrelevant? Keep dreaming.

Going anywhere other than Quebec City and Hamilton next is complete stupidity. If a large population is really the answer, Mexico City is a great location.

 

[Ogopogo*]

K, first of all... soccer isn't even close to being "more widely followed" in the US than hockey is. Maybe in certain markets, but on the whole... not at all.

Secondly, why would the NHL want to go places where hockey isn't yet huge? It's called growing the game. The NHL isn't going to dent it's revenue stream outside of ticket sales by an enormous amount in going to a place like Hamilton. i.e. people in Hamilton already spend some money on NHL merch. If you want to have the largest long-term impact, you go where the fans already aren't.

Foolishness. Think about that for a minute: Don't sell your product to people that want it, rather try to get people who don't want it to pay for it.

Good luck with that. Ever heard of Phoenix?

 

[TTOMO]

Nope, doubt it.

OT, but I will never understand America's love affair with college football and basketball for the life of me. That is, most of America, because here in Boston I don't know of many people who give a rat's rear about it. Strange since there's so many colleges here but I'm not complaining.

I would actually watch college football if the games amounted to anything important at the end of the season instead of toward playing in some game sponsored by an auto repair company. It's a shame, because NCAA football can be fun to watch, but I won't do it out of principle.

 

[beenhereandthere]

hahaha What exactly do you think the big picture is? Some NFL-style TV contract making ticket sales irrelevant? Keep dreaming.

Going anywhere other than Quebec City and Hamilton next is complete stupidity. If a large population is really the answer, Mexico City is a great location.

Another "our game" thinker, added to my ignore list.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

It could be possible, but I'll say unlikely at this point for one simple reason (which I said months before in this very topic on the first page)..... size.

Problem is you have to compare Portland to what it would become if they got an NHL team, which is a city with both an NHL and NBA team. While they may cost less to sustain then an MLB or NFL team, the NHL/NBA seasons and postseasons almost entirely overlap with each other, making support of both actually quite difficult for smaller markets.

As of right now, the two smallest metropolitan areas that have both NHL and NBA teams are Denver (about 3.1 million) and Minneapolis-St. Paul (about 3.6 million), both of which have a fairly sizable population advantage over Portland's 2.2 million metro area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...umber_of_major_professional_sports_franchises

Plus, look at Vancouver, which has a metro area only slightly larger then Portland's, and during their years of NHL/NBA coexistence there was a slight dip in attendance at Canucks games and the Grizzlies had problems from the get-go. Granted, I must admit that this isn't the most fair of comparisons, as the Canadian dollar was weak at that time, but I do think there are at least some connections that could be made here.

So, if Portland got a team, honestly wouldn't be surprised if they had a reverse-Vancouver situation.... where the established NBA suffers a bit before finally rebounding when the languishing NHL team eventually leaves for sunnier pastures elsewhere.

 

[dougiebrown]

The dream of the 90's is alive in Portland.

 

[vezna*]

is it? maybe. but there's other better cities to relocate a team.

 

[uhlaw97]

Houston, with about 6 million in the metro area, blows 'em away. Sure wish Les Alexander would get together with some other big wigs, and buy us a team.

 

[Undertakerqc]

Houston, with about 6 million in the metro area, blows 'em away. Sure wish Les Alexander would get together with some other big wigs, and buy us a team.

Houston will be like Dallas a so-so market. Portland Oregon at least has a better shot at succeeding