Worst Market For the NHL?

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Papadice

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Sir Ozzie X said:
To be fair, half of the boards are made up of Canadians that probably couldn't find Columbus or Nashville on a map. That's not really a jab, I probably couldn't find Moose Jaw or some other city with a funky name.
I'm a die hard Leafs fan, but I've found over the last few years that Columbus has taken over Edmonton as my 2nd favourite team in the NHL... I spent two years working in Syracuse, New York and got to watch the Crunch play quite a bit... I became a fan starting then, and with the additions of exciting young players like Nash and Zherdev, and one of my personal favourites, Jody Shelley :handclap: , I've found that I've started liking them more and more... I've even snubbed my beloved Leafs in NHL 2005 to take the Blue Jackets in my first shot at the Dynasty mode... I immediately traded Leclaire though :D ... I've never been a fan of his... To this day, despite Blackburn's injuries, I think the Jackets made the wrong pick at the draft that year... If Blackburn wasn't rushed (idiot Rangers) I think he would be a dominant goaltender... I don't have a lot of faith in Leclaire myself...

I'm originally from Prince Edward Island and am very proud at this point to call Doug MacLean a fellow Islander... He has done a remarkable job with the Columbus franchise and has really suprised me... As I've stated before, when I first heard that Columbus was getting a team I almost split my head open from the impact of me hitting the floor laughing... I seriously thought that it was a joke... Hockey in Columbus??? yah right! Well, you guys have made believers out of me... I'm happy to admit that I was absolutely wrong with my initial thoughts of Columbus not being a viable hockey market...
 

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Hasbro said:
Karmanos was looking at Minnesota before hand and didn't get a deal he liked.
...and Columbus.

Supposedly, he has/had other business interests here. He actually spent a few days touring the city with officials --- they were even considering playing temporarily in a closed aircraft manufacturing plant on the edge of town, while waiting for funding to be approved for a new arena.

A the time, Columbus had a sales tax initiative on the ballot to fund the building of a new arena. Karmanos' team was to be the main tenant, and was clearly the impetus behind the pro arena-tax efforts. On the eve of the election, Karmanos announced that he was re-locating to Raleigh (where arena plans were already in place), and the sales tax vote failed --- leaving us without an arena or a team.

I'm still a little bitter towards Karmanos, but everything worked out for the best :)D), as we eventually got a privately-funded arena and a brand new expansion team to call our own.
 

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I've never understood why people didn't see Columbus as a good hockey market. What would make St. Louis better? Columbus is a northern city, has good cold winters (which is what most consider a nessacitity for hockey here, you know since hockey is played outdoors so often in the NHL) and is a good sized city with no pro sports.
 

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triggrman said:
I've never understood why people didn't see Columbus as a good hockey market. What would make St. Louis better? Columbus is a northern city, has good cold winters (which is what most consider a nessacitity for hockey here, you know since hockey is played outdoors so often in the NHL) and is a good sized city with no pro sports.


I agree, Columbus is already a good hockey market, and will get even better. Columbus has a natural rival with the Wings seeing how we hate anything in Ohio and they hate Michigan. And once the talent levels even out (BJ;s going up, Wings coming down) it's only gonna get better.
 

Old Hickory

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How did Los Angeles get dragged in to this? We've had a team since 1967, they are in the top 11 in attendace and attendace actually rose last year despite two injury plagued non lpayoff years in a row.
 

kenabnrmal

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Again, having a bad name/jersey results in being labelled a poor market. There is little reason to believe Anaheim is a bad market. The money is there, the support has proven to be there, so unless you're looking at getting rid of a GOOD number of teams, the Anaheim shouldn't be on the list.

In Anaheim, as in most of the other hockey markets in the league, if you ice a competitive team the people will come out. Mismanagement hurt attendance in the past, but that was a reflection of the organization at the time, not the market.
 

Kravitch

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PredsFan77 said:
Isn't Nashville moving to Winnipeg?

A team from the south contacted Winnipeg but they never really said which team. People assume it's Nashville.
 

Kravitch

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Sotnos said:
Yeah, we're all stupid down here buddy. Keep it up. :shakehead


We certainly do on this fricken' board. Case in point, your post.


Quit whining! You have a Stanley Cup AND you live in Florida. You should accuse me of being jealous of you!

(I admit, I am :( .)

Alright alright, sorry that my post went to far. But honostly, I have heard of fans asking what "state" Calgary was in. No joke, I'm not trying to be an ass, they have mentioned this in newsapers here. In fact, I hope all southern teams strive for the best. Except for Phoenix, we want them back. :)
 

Papadice

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kenabnrmal said:
Again, having a bad name/jersey results in being labelled a poor market. There is little reason to believe Anaheim is a bad market. The money is there, the support has proven to be there, so unless you're looking at getting rid of a GOOD number of teams, the Anaheim shouldn't be on the list.
The money is there? Is that why they are trying to sell off any player with a decent sized contract? Is that why they are trying to sell the team? I'm sorry if it offends you, because it is just my personal opinion (and it could be wrong), but if I were hypothetically put in charge of picking teams to be contracted from the NHL or moved to a new market, Anaheim would likely be in my top 3... just my opinion...
 

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With Bettman at the helm, I would wager the ONLY criteria for dropping a team would be: take the team in the smallest TV market and get rid of it. But why get rid of it if there's a bigger TV market to move it too? I believe the reason behind expansion and team movements the last decade was to position the NHL in all the largest north American TV markets so the US networks would ante up and welcome the NHL into the big time like the other three major sports and therefore prevent the situation that now exits.

Who has the best fans or most loyal following is all hooey when discussing the possibility of contraction. May as well have a contest to see how many hate which new team the most. Columbus and North Carolina in the last 20 years have moved up in the TV market game. Columbus is now larger than Cleveland. As far as the Kings and Ducks go that's the 2nd biggest market down there, plus there's a genuine concern in the Western Confrence that there are too few teams spread too far apart.

The other problem, of course, is players making US dollars in Canada while teams earn Canadian revenue. Plus US television is currently unable to profit from ad sales in Canada and visa versa. This is where a revenue sharing plan would really aleviate some pressure. But does Canadian Tire have anything to sell Washington fans when the Leafs come to town? More and more American corporations are now selling in Canada, i.e. Beer and cars, but still this is one of the trickiest problems of all. A solution that satisfies the greed of all parties remains elusive.

Now that the big push to get a TV deal seems to have failed, the league should put a hockey man at the helm and the wagons in a circle, return the game to the way it was played when we all fell in love with it and grow the markets one by one.

Memo to Gary Bettman: When the local hockey game in Phoenix, Washington, Miami, and Pittsburgh is routinely beating network shows in the TV ratings, you'll get your freakin network deal. And not a minute before hand. SO quit tinkering with the product and get down to playing, and SELLING hockey!
-HckyFght!
 
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Mr.Hunter74 said:
Pheonix, Pittsburge have horrible horrible buildings which dont even high sky boxes so that could be a big factor. Pheonix is a relatively newish team that has sucked for the duration of time its been in there.

Phoenix has the newest arena in the entire league (it's been open for less than a year), and the old one (still a good basketball arena) definately had boxes.

If it wasn't for this lockout, I'm sure you would see more local interest in the sport. The team has improved itself alot during the off season, and added the name Hull. They had a high draft pick. They will host the all-star game next season (hopefully) and there are rumors of Gretz taking over the coaching duties. Not too bad for getting butts in seats when you consider how terrible the D-Backs and Cards are right now.
 

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tgallant said:
The money is there? Is that why they are trying to sell off any player with a decent sized contract? Is that why they are trying to sell the team? I'm sorry if it offends you, because it is just my personal opinion (and it could be wrong), but if I were hypothetically put in charge of picking teams to be contracted from the NHL or moved to a new market, Anaheim would likely be in my top 3... just my opinion...

Disney definitely has the money, but are looking to sell, and thats not the money I was referring to. I was referring to the money in the market. There is little doubt that Orange County has a great deal of money in it.

I wouldn't say they are trying to sell off any player with a decent sized contract. They are looking to cut a certain amount from the payroll to come under budget (last year's expenditures to capitalize upon the previous year's success largely failed), but thats not indicative of a poor market. There are few teams in the league who can spend at will, and not correct themselves if results aren't seen.

Disney came into the league at the height of its popularity in the states. They were looking to make "Anaheim" (as opposed to "California") a destination city. Their own mismanagement in the early years has prevented this organization from being as successful as it could have been, and has resulted in a frustrated and sometimes fluctuating fan base. They are looking to sell because, as other owners in more "accepted" markets have figured out, NHL hockey isn't the cash cow Bettman suggested it would be years ago. They were never committed to building a winning organization, and thus, have little reason to remain in the hockey business. They sold the Angels as well, so an owner simply looking to sell a franchise is hardly indicative of a poor market.

The Ducks' name and jerseys dug the team so deep a hole with traditionalist hockey fans that its likely never to crawl out, respect-wise. The Ducks will always be mentioned at the top of these lists because a) a non-traditional hockey market, b) warm weather (closely related to A), c) the ridiculous name. As long as these factors exist, regardless of whether a relevant argument against them exists, people will continually try to get them out of the league.
 

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Kravitch said:
Alright alright, sorry that my post went to far. But honostly, I have heard of fans asking what "state" Calgary was in. No joke, I'm not trying to be an ass, they have mentioned this in newsapers here. In fact, I hope all southern teams strive for the best. Except for Phoenix, we want them back. :)

I'll never understand why my fellow Canadians cannot get past the fact that many, or most, Americans do not have a firm grasp of Canadian geography. Why on earth would they? To an average Floridian Canada isn't their neighbor to the North, Georgia is, and in their day-to-day lives they have little reason to consider or even a reminder of the fact that Canada resides just north of Grand Forks. It isn't an indicator of intelligence...perhaps ignorance...but very light hearted ignorance at that.
 

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HckyFght said:
I believe the reason behind expansion and team movements the last decade was to position the NHL in all the largest north American TV markets so the US networks would ante up and welcome the NHL into the big time like the other three major sports and therefore prevent the situation that now exits.
Yup, based on everything I've read, the "big TV deal" that hasn't materialized was at the center of everything for the past decade and a half, not to mention the expansion fees. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, in Gil Stein's book he goes on at some length about how badly he wanted the Disney name attached to the NHL, as he thought it would raise the profile of the league or something like that. He REALLY wanted Anaheim in the league, more than any of the other teams he brought in.

kenabnrmal said:
I'll never understand why my fellow Canadians cannot get past the fact that many, or most, Americans do not have a firm grasp of Canadian geography. Why on earth would they? To an average Floridian Canada isn't their neighbor to the North, Georgia is, and in their day-to-day lives they have little reason to consider or even a reminder of the fact that Canada resides just north of Grand Forks. It isn't an indicator of intelligence...perhaps ignorance...but very light hearted ignorance at that.
Thank you, finally someone gets it. :) I have never understood why what some fool on the beach down here said to some Canadian media outlet during the playoffs gets used to paint us all with the same broad brush.
 

SedinFan*

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Surprised to see Columbus on that list. Probably, next to Minnesota, the best recent expansion city.

LA's a good market too.

I chose Carolina because there is NO way that there should be a team in Raleigh, not even Canes fans can support that.
 

salty justice

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No doubt theres plenty of money in Orange County, but Anaheim itself is a fairly poor city and the people in the richer areas of Orange would rather surf than pay a lot of money to see a bad hockey team.

Sadly LA is a good market because of corporate ticket holders and people attending games as a social event rather than a hockey game. The true hockey fan base in Southern California is pretty dismal.
 

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theBob said:
No doubt theres plenty of money in Orange County, but Anaheim itself is a fairly poor city and the people in the richer areas of Orange would rather surf than pay a lot of money to see a bad hockey team.

Sadly LA is a good market because of corporate ticket holders and people attending games as a social event rather than a hockey game. The true hockey fan base in Southern California is pretty dismal.

You reside in SoCal, so you'll be more of an expert on the area than I have, since I've mearly spent a great deal of time there in the past 8 years (a couple mths out of each year). However, here's my take on Orange Country. Anaheim's used in the team's name mearly, as I said, to serve Disney's efforts to make "Anaheim" a destination city as opposed to just another So.Cal suburb. I feel that the Ducks' target market, and home market, stretches beyond the Anaheim city limits into all of Orange County. I feel that there is enough of a fan base there to support a competitive team, something the Ducks have rarely been. There is also enough corporate support. I think much of the fan base garnered through the initial Selanne-Kariya years because very frustrated with Disney's mismanagement and lack of effort in surround two of the top superstars in the game with a competitive team, and was almost entirely eroded until their Cup finals run. They gained back a lot of fans during that run, and while the Kariya bolting and subsequent poor season was a disappointment, Orange County has shown that when the team is competitive, the fans come out. Itd just be nice for the Ducks to be able to ice mearly a playoff team for a few consequtive years. With that the fan base will stablize and thrive. Until then its tough to truely and without bias judge this market. Afterall, not too many consistently competitive teams ON the ice have been contracted or moved in the NHL.
 

Kravitch

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SedinFan said:
Surprised to see Columbus on that list. Probably, next to Minnesota, the best recent expansion city.

LA's a good market too.

I chose Carolina because there is NO way that there should be a team in Raleigh, not even Canes fans can support that.

Theres a simple reason why Columbus is on the list. Because before the NHL came to the town, no one was very familiar with the city thus not knowing any thing about it or how it would support a pro sports team. I bet if the Jackets played in Cleveland or Cincinatti nobody would be talking trash.
 

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Kravitch said:
Theres a simple reason why Columbus is on the list. Because before the NHL came to the town, no one was very familiar with the city thus not knowing any thing about it or how it would support a pro sports team. I bet if the Jackets played in Cleveland or Cincinatti nobody would be talking trash.
Could be.

I think it's more a matter of the CBJ not winning, and therefore Nationwide crowds get no exposure (and the team gets no media print, outside central Ohio).

More wins mean more sell-outs shown on television.
 

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triggrman said:
I could be wrong but doesn't Washington lose the most money, followed by Anahiem and Phoenix?

I wish everyone would quit dragging Washington into this argument. Sure last year was bad, but almost any team having a horrible year would lose attendance and revenue. The owner made one big mistake (extending Jagr before he even played). But, he tried to make a move to improve the market here, it didn't work and he paid dearly for it. Prior to last year the Caps have been in the middle of the pack in attendance over the previous ten years. This town can and will support hockey we just need to have a competitive team. The CAPS in my opinion made a bunch of good moves and with a lot prospect coming up could be an up and coming team in 2 or 3 years. The next season whenever it is will probably and most likely be the same as 2003-2004 season, but this is a team that fans can get behind in say 2006 or 2007, should be cup contender nlt 2009. One more fact I believe it was the 2001-2002 season where the CAPS averaged 17,000+ fans, maybe some because of Jagr but who hear doesn't believe with the likes of Semin and Ovechkin in the mix that it will not return to that level this of course assuming the lockout doesn't lose a lot of fans league wide and not just here in DC.

The CAPS have gotten out of the Jagr contract, though they still owe $4M to the Rangers for the next 3/4 years, but they now only have one big contract left on the books. Kolzig at 6.5M but that contract only has this year (which not being paid right now), and next. And, I would guess if there is a season and trade deadline and someone is in need of a goalie (Vancouver) for a year or two he would be moved, I know Auld is the goalie of future but Kolzig could help him for a year or two. Kolzig would relish a trade to Vancouver, his wife is from the area and he just built a home in Washington state.
 
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triggrman

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Taranis_24 said:
I wish everyone would quit dragging Washington into this argument. Sure last year was bad, but almost any team having a horrible year would lose attendance and revenue. The owner made one big mistake (extending Jagr before he even played). But, he tried to make a move to improve the market here, it didn't work and he paid dearly for it. Prior to last year the Caps have been in the middle of the pack in attendance over the previous ten years. This town can and will support hockey we just need to have a competitive team. The CAPS in my opinion made a bunch of good moves and with a lot prospect coming up could be an up and coming team in 2 or 3 years. The next season whenever it is will probably and most likely be the same as 2003-2004 season, but this is a team that fans can get behind in say 2006 or 2007, should be cup contender nlt 2009. One more fact I believe it was the 2001-2002 season where the CAPS averaged 17,000+ fans, maybe some because of Jagr but who hear doesn't believe with the likes of Semin and Ovechkin in the mix that it will not return to that level this of course assuming the lockout doesn't lose a lot of fans league wide and not just here in DC.

The CAPS have gotten out of the Jagr contract, though they still owe $4M to the Rangers for the next 3/4 years, but they now only have one big contract left on the books. Kolzig at 6.5M but that contract only has this year (which not being paid right now), and next. And, I would guess if there is a season and trade deadline and someone is in need of a goalie (Vancouver) for a year or two he would be moved, I know Auld is the goalie of future but Kolzig could help him for a year or two. Kolzig would relish a trade to Vancouver, his wife is from the area and he just built a home in Washington state.


No what's funny to me is the teams that are losing the most (Washington, Detroit, St. Louis, NY Rangers, Anaheim and Carolina) are all part of the reason the salaries are out of hand anyway.

As far as a city supporting a contender, that's ever market. Nashville's attendance the first 2 season was up with the highest in the league, it dropped dramatically years 4 and 5 after the team failed to me the standard set in the first 2 season's with no glimmer of hope of making the playoffs. The team started low in attendance this season until after Christmas when the push for the playoffs began, and after the playoffs had the best summer of season ticket sales in the teams history despite having the lock-out looming. So while you say it's insane for people to bring up Washington, it's not. Every team has a good defense, even Chicago and the Islanders.
 

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triggrman said:
No what's funny to me is the teams that are losing the most (Washington, Detroit, St. Louis, NY Rangers, Anaheim and Carolina) are all part of the reason the salaries are out of hand anyway.
I know fans in other markets and Canada will never accept this or may point to the 80's for the Islanders and 94 for the Rangers. But today the New York City hockey market is one of the worst in the country. During a six month regular season nothing that happens on the ice will change that perception. Hockey here hits the homestretch and the bulk of the media heads to Florida for spring training. The local radio hosts do not take calls about hockey and their hosts cannot even name five players on each team.

Pittsburgh, Florida have more dedicated coverage on hockey than they do in New York City.

In terms of fans, media coverage and standing with the general public casual sports fans would hardly notice if all three teams went out of business tomorrow. Thousands of empty seats in all three local arenas, even with the Rangers having an 80-90 million dollar team that are totally invisible in the Yankees year-round market.

The journalists have no time to cover hockey players when they have the Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Knicks and Nets. Also the game plays to one demographic here, between that and the high prices and boring product all that's left is are the
die-hards who remember the old days.

Rangers on Abc produced ratings equal to Islander owners Charles Wang's Arena Football team in New York...Even as far back as 1999 Rangers-Wings produced
a 0.9 rating and hockey journalists claimed the game was in trouble here back then.

Personally I think the game would be better off in a surburb and not the city market where there is no room in the press to cover it any longer. Why is a sports editor going to send his people to speak with an Islander, Ranger or Devil when there are Yankees and Mets to talk with. All winter long rotissary baseball will dominate the back pages, football and both basketball teams take the rest.
 
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