Worst choices for award winners

[norrisnick]

Ok.....find me at least 8 that were more deserving

I don't know about 8, but this is one hell of a statline to not win the Vezina.
39 - 6 - 5, gaa - 2.17, save% - 0.911 SO - 5 compared to
35 - 24 - 9, gaa - 2.26, save% - 0.906 SO - 9

Probably didn't help Osgood that Detroit scored 91 more goals than the Caps did. lol

 

[Mothra]

I don't know about 8, but this is one hell of a statline to not win the Vezina.
39 - 6 - 5, gaa - 2.17, save% - 0.911 SO - 5 compared to
35 - 24 - 9, gaa - 2.26, save% - 0.906 SO - 9

Probably didn't help Osgood that Detroit scored 91 more goals than the Caps did. lol

Also not helping is the fact that he played in only 50 games....as opposed to 71 for Carey.....Carey also played 1,000+ more minutes

 

[norrisnick]

Also not helping is the fact that he played in only 50 games....as opposed to 71 for Carey.....Carey also played 1,000+ more minutes

Chris plays 71 games that season he's shattering the win record, but I see your point.

Still makes me shake my head that Kiprusoff was a finalist for the Vezina playing a whopping 38 games.

 

[Mothra]

Chris plays 71 games that season he's shattering the win record, but I see your point.

Still makes me shake my head that Kiprusoff was a finalist for the Vezina playing a whopping 38 games.

Without going back and checking....It seems like goalies that dont play a ton (60+) just dont win it.....I remember Turco a couple seasons ago missing time near the end and not winning it...and probably for that reason alone.

back to Carey....I agree that an arguement can be made for other goalies that season.....but the guy that said "at least 8" is just off his rocker.....Carey was a legit choice, albeit debatable (as with most winners)

 

[reckoning]

Without going back and checking....It seems like goalies that dont play a ton (60+) just dont win it.....I remember Turco a couple seasons ago missing time near the end and not winning it...and probably for that reason alone.

back to Carey....I agree that an arguement can be made for other goalies that season.....but the guy that said "at least 8" is just off his rocker.....Carey was a legit choice, albeit debatable (as with most winners)

OK... 8 goalies (all played at least 50 games)

- Dominik Hasek: had the best save percentage in the league that year at .920; Carey was 15th at .906. I realize save% isn`t the be-all and end-all but it`s a better indicator than shutouts

- Darren Puppa : 2nd in save % at .918, single-handedly put Tampa in the playoffs ( with Puppa: 29-16-9, without Puppa 9-16-3)

- Chris Osgood : beat Carey in every category except shutouts

- Martin Brodeur : better save% than Carey (.911 to .906) and actually played more minutes than he did

- Ron Hextall : had the best GAA in the league, yet his defence was only 3rd best in shots allowed

- Felix Potvin : very impressive .910 save% playing over 4000 minutes, another guy who single-handedly got his team in the playoffs

- Guy Hebert : Anaheim totally sucked- ranked in the bottom third of the league in both offence and shots allowed; yet Hebert managed to be five games over .500; 4th best save% .914

- Patrick Roy : had only one less win than Carey despite Carey having 9 more decisions; .908 save% which would`ve been around .912 if not for the fiasco against Detroit in his final game as a Hab

 

[BlueBleeder]

Blake's Norris in '98 was a pretty bad one considering he was -3. Lidstrom was +22 and outscored Rob 59 to 50. Lidstrom also only had 18 PIMs in the process compared to Rob's 94.

Oh, just a note regarding the '89 Hart. Yzerman won the Pearson that year.

There was a clerical error that year. Pronger should have won it.

 

[Epsilon]

Yzerman won a series standing on one friggin' leg, pulling his entire team out of the gutter, and anybody who watched that series against Vancouver knows it. Then he dominated the next round too. It shouldn't matter if he had less impact after that, he'd earned the Conn Smythe by that point, IMO.

I like Lidstrom and he played well. But the team which won the Cup knew who was the MVP of that playoffs. It was their captain. Players even kept saying as such up until the Conn Smythe went elsewhere. Then their tune changed, to be PC about it.

It seems that Canucks fans are the one's who bring this up the most, presumably because of a lot of them overvalue that series and then probably stopped watching the Wings games altogether the rest of the way. Lidstrom was the best player in the finals, and overall. Fedorov was the best player against the Avalanche, which is really the only series that matters. Hasek was probably the best player against the Blues, although it's not like that series was ever in doubt. And Yzerman was the best player against the Canucks, but of course it was Lidstrom who made the single most important play. Any of those guys could have won the Conn Smythe, and frankly I had Fedorov tipped for it given how much he dominated against Colorado. Fedorov and Forsberg were playing at such a higher level during than series than any of the other forwards it was borderline ridiculous. Lidstrom and Foote were probably the only other two players in the same stratosphere as those two.

But when taking the entire 2002 playoffs into account, and not assigning extra points to the first round because it was against a Canadian team and hence got the biggest push from CBC, Lidstrom was the best choice for the award. He's the one player who was absolutely essential against everyone.

 

[Hasbro]

I don't see it as such a tragedy, considering that Hasek and Brodeur have won 7 of the 10 Vezina's since the lockout. They have clearly been the best goalies in the league during that span, regardless of their conference. The only really questionable one would be Carey that I can think of. Theodore certainly deserved his, and Kolzig was a solid choice as well

You can probably chalk it up to the fact that the west was the stronger conference over the past 10 or 15 years, and the east was filled with more teams that relied heavily on goaltending to have success (Buffalo, Toronto, New Jersey, etc)

The list of western finalists is sparse as well. I can only think of twice off the top of my head that a goalie in the west made it into the top three. Roy and Osgood (which is another matter entirely.) I am sure there's more, but not many.

 

[BlueBleeder]

It seems that Canucks fans are the one's who bring this up the most, presumably because of a lot of them overvalue that series and then probably stopped watching the Wings games altogether the rest of the way. Lidstrom was the best player in the finals, and overall. Fedorov was the best player against the Avalanche, which is really the only series that matters. Hasek was probably the best player against the Blues, although it's not like that series was ever in doubt. And Yzerman was the best player against the Canucks, but of course it was Lidstrom who made the single most important play. Any of those guys could have won the Conn Smythe, and frankly I had Fedorov tipped for it given how much he dominated against Colorado. Fedorov and Forsberg were playing at such a higher level during than series than any of the other forwards it was borderline ridiculous. Lidstrom and Foote were probably the only other two players in the same stratosphere as those two.

But when taking the entire 2002 playoffs into account, and not assigning extra points to the first round because it was against a Canadian team and hence got the biggest push from CBC, Lidstrom was the best choice for the award. He's the one player who was absolutely essential against everyone.

IF Pronger didn't blow his knee out trying to finish off Yzerman. The Blues make a series of it.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Messier beat Bourque by two votes in 1990. Either of them would have been deserving of the Hart that year. Bourque had likely the best year of his career. Pop in a video from any game that season and watch Bourque controll all aspects of the game.

The statement of the Eastern bias figuring into 10 straight Vezinas doesn't hold water. Five were won by Hasek (who won two Hart Trophies, too). Two were won by Broudeur. Theodore deserved it in 2002, Carey didn't, but Puppa did, and he played for Tampa. Kolzig was terrific in 2000.

I would have gone with Yzerman for the Conn Smythe in 2002. He was his team's MVP throughout the playoffs. Lidstrom was strong throughout, and was the best player in the latter parts of the conference final and through the Stanley Cup final, but from start to finish, Yzerman was the man.

 

[Spitfire11]

Fedorov was the best player against the Avalanche, which is really the only series that matters.

I dunno, I think Roy ended up being the best player for Detroit in that series

IMO, Lidstrom deserved at least some consideration for the 2003 Hart trophy. Chelios wasn't the same from the year before and was also injured along with Fischer, and Schneider wasn't picked up until the trade deadline. Lidstrom lead a blueline of Kuznetsov, Bykov, Wallin, Dandenault, Woolley, and Boileau to the third best record in the league, just one point back of Dallas. Without Lidstrom that team would have been a disaster.

 

[BM67]

The list of western finalists is sparse as well. I can only think of twice off the top of my head that a goalie in the west made it into the top three. Roy and Osgood (which is another matter entirely.) I am sure there's more, but not many.

There were Western finalists in 6 of the last 10 years, with 2 in 02.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

1986 - Vezina - John Vanbiesbrouck

1997 - Conn Smythe - Mike Vernon

1993 - Selke - Doug Gilmour

1995 - Selke - Ron Francis

2000 - Selke - Steve Yzerman

 

[Mothra]

OK... 8 goalies (all played at least 50 games)

- Dominik Hasek: had the best save percentage in the league that year at .920; Carey was 15th at .906. I realize save% isn`t the be-all and end-all but it`s a better indicator than shutouts

- Darren Puppa : 2nd in save % at .918, single-handedly put Tampa in the playoffs ( with Puppa: 29-16-9, without Puppa 9-16-3)

- Chris Osgood : beat Carey in every category except shutouts

- Martin Brodeur : better save% than Carey (.911 to .906) and actually played more minutes than he did

- Ron Hextall : had the best GAA in the league, yet his defence was only 3rd best in shots allowed

- Felix Potvin : very impressive .910 save% playing over 4000 minutes, another guy who single-handedly got his team in the playoffs

- Guy Hebert : Anaheim totally sucked- ranked in the bottom third of the league in both offence and shots allowed; yet Hebert managed to be five games over .500; 4th best save% .914

- Patrick Roy : had only one less win than Carey despite Carey having 9 more decisions; .908 save% which would`ve been around .912 if not for the fiasco against Detroit in his final game as a Hab

Ok.....first, you said that these guys were all "more deserving", lets not forget that. I am not saying a case cant be made for some guys......but hands down more deserving I have issues with.....lets look at them.....but lets also point out that 50 games does not seem to be enough of a work load. In the last 20 years one guy has won it playing 50 or less games, Roy in 88-89....his first Vezina....he was 33-5-6 and much better than his backup Hayward (20-13-3) in all major stats...

Compare Carey to Kolzig that season. Not only were his numbers way better....he was 35-24-9 as opposed to 4-8-2.

Hasek: Played for a losing team...finished 22-30-6 (yet Trefilov was 8-8-1)...but on save% alone he deserves it more?

Puppa:You credit Puppa for "single-handedly put Tampa in the playoffs"....yet Carey doesnt get the same credit? TB finished behind Washington in the same division. Puppa also would have been a legit choice....but this is certainly debatable...because he was no more deserving as Carey

Osgood: again....50 games not really enough. Especially when the guy you split time with put up numbers almost as good

Brodeur: He is always a legit choice....but 34-30-12 and missing the playoffs doesnt help.....and his backups put up very good numbers as well. Can an arguement be made? sure.....is he hands down more deserving....no. Less shoutouts....no playoffs.....worse GAA....again, it seems like its only save%

Hextall: A strong year by Hextall....but only 53 games...and not so much better than his backups that without him they couldnt win (unlike the Caps who needed Carey)

Potvin: Potvin had a good year....but again, more deserving? 30-26-11, worse GAA (by over half a goal) than Carey...again, only better save%(slightly) than Carey....you point out "another guy who single-handedly got his team in the playoffs" and I again say...what about Carey? Doesnt he get that same credit?

Hebert: You honestly thing he was "more deserving" than Carey? He had a good year.....but again...all he has is better save%....in 700 or so less minutes

Roy:...well...Roy did play the last half of the season with the Cup winners....so I guess he would have won a lot. You can never go wrong with him as a winner....but you cant look at his stats and say "if it wasnt for this bad game"....it just doesnt work that way. Either way....I cant sit here and say he (Roy) was more deserving...could he have won, sure....but I am not sure if he was even a finalist. I know Puppa was....and as I recall it was pretty much between those two (Puppa and Carey)...pretty sure Osgood was the other....but memory fails me on that

You list a couple/few guys that a case can be made for....which happens most seasons....but I can not disagree more if you really think all 8 of these guys (and you said "at least 8") are flat out more deserving. Carey had one hell of a season. You credit other guys for single-handedly carrying their teams into the playoffs...but dont give Carey the same credit. Without him they are totally done. Kolzig goes 4-8-2 with a 3.08 GAA and a .887 save%...another poster said something silly about how his grandfather could have had 9 shutouts behind the Caps D....yet Kolzig who later wins the same award is terrible behind it

 

[arrbez]

The list of western finalists is sparse as well. I can only think of twice off the top of my head that a goalie in the west made it into the top three. Roy and Osgood (which is another matter entirely.) I am sure there's more, but not many.

Yeah, I really have no idea about the vezina finalists, but they don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. It's all about the winner. Roy was certainly an elite goaltender, but he was not nearly as good as Hasek was during his prime. And by the time Brodeur started carrying the torch, I think Roy was declining a bit, but luckily behind a very good team. I don't think anyone is going to mistake Chris Osgoode for a vezina winner. He was a good goalie on a great team

 

[Epsilon]

1997 - Conn Smythe - Mike Vernon

Funny, I thought that one was a no-brainer. I think any Wings fan would say the same. Who do you propose should have won? I hope you arn't planning to say Lindros.

 

[Spitfire11]

Funny, I thought that one was a no-brainer. I think any Wings fan would say the same. Who do you propose should have won? I hope you arn't planning to say Lindros.

I don't remember the first Cup run very well, but I'm guessing he's going with Fedorov who would have been a worthy winner for all three runs. The player who stepped up his game the most was always Holmstrom though. Just awful during the regular season (minus powerplay) but indispensable in the playoffs. I would be nice to see him get rewarded (hopefully in the future!).

 

[God Bless Canada]

Vernon was excellent for Detroit in 1997. It wasn't just for his on-ice play, either. While he wasn't on a team where he had to steal a lot of games, he played smart and steady, and he provided ample leadership. The type of situation where if goalies could be a captain or alternate, he would have been one.

Back to the Carey argument. The Caps defence was generally revered as the best in the league in the mid-1990s, not just for talent, but for the execution of the system and playing together as a unit. Look who they had: Gonchar (back when he played in his own zone), Sylvain Cote, the always underrated Calle Johnasson, Tinordi, Jim Johnson and Joe Reekie. They also had Brendan Witt and Ken Klee at their disposal. That's the reason Carey had nine shutouts. When Washington ran into injury problems in 1997, Carey started to get exposed. When he was traded to Boston, we found out how much he benefitted from that defence.

Puppa, meanwhile, experienced the joys of dealing with a defence that included the inconsistent Roman Hamrlik, Bill Houlder, Cory Cross, Michel Petit, Igor Ulanov and David Shaw. They were so desparate, they dressed Adrian Plavsic for seven games. Also, Tampa was a very run-and-gun oriented team that year, and Puppa had to fend for himself many nights. If you thought Olaf Kolzig's numbers were bad in 1995-96, you should see Puppa's three back-ups from that season.

While Carey was very good in 1996, and better than some of the goalies tossed out earlier, it still confounds me to this day how Carey beat Puppa for the Vezina, and that has been my point from the start. It's interesting to note that Carey earned only five of 26 first place votes (nine goalies received first place votes that year), and won the award by only six points over Osgood. It's also interesting to note that Carey flopped in the 1996 playoffs, while Kolzig re-emerged as the team's No. 1.

PS: About my "grandfather" comment, perhaps hyperbole and sarcasm are new to some people.
PPS: Hasek led the league in save percentage that year at .920. Funny, isn't it. Now a .920 save percentage would be middle of the pack.

 

[Epsilon]

One thing I will say in defense of the Vezina trophy: at least Curtis Joseph never won it while playing for the Leafs. Man, that year the Toronto media was pimping Joseph for the Vezina AND the Hart when he had a 2.56 GAA, a 0.910 Sv Pct, and the Leafs led the NHL in scoring, was excruciating. Then the next year they are going on about how Joseph posted a career best GAA...a microscopic 2.49. And this was at a time when Brodeur and Hasek were posting sub-2.20 and even sub-2.00 GAAs with regularity.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Funny, I thought that one was a no-brainer. I think any Wings fan would say the same. Who do you propose should have won? I hope you arn't planning to say Lindros.

No, certainly not any Flyer, but Vernon wasn't the reason the Wings won that Cup. The Wings so dominated the Flyers in the Finals that Vernon had next to nothing to do. I realize that the Conn Smythe is for the entire playoffs, but IMO either Shanahan or Fedorov would have been better choices.

 

[Mothra]

Back to the Carey argument. The Caps defence was generally revered as the best in the league in the mid-1990s, not just for talent, but for the execution of the system and playing together as a unit. Look who they had: Gonchar (back when he played in his own zone), Sylvain Cote, the always underrated Calle Johnasson, Tinordi, Jim Johnson and Joe Reekie. They also had Brendan Witt and Ken Klee at their disposal. That's the reason Carey had nine shutouts. When Washington ran into injury problems in 1997, Carey started to get exposed. When he was traded to Boston, we found out how much he benefitted from that defence.

I honestly dont know anyone that revered the Caps D as the best in the NHL in those days....lets look at the guys you mentioned and shoot holes in that statement.

Gonchar: His first full season in the NHL....pretty much a rookie

Calle, Tinordi, Cote: All good players...no doubt (and agreed that Johansson was always under-rated)

Reekie: was traded from TB less than 2 years before this and was nothing more than an average NHL d-man (although a great locker-room guy)

Johnson: Your typical journyman blueliner....nothing more, maybe even less

Witt: Was a complete disaster....he had just sat out a year of hockey because of money...had never played in the NHL but his agent wanted big $$ and he almost went back into the draft. This was his rookie season and he was terrible and scratched as often as he played. The next season he didnt even make the team and started in the AHL. It was 2 or 3 years later that he became a non-liability

Klee: Had been a forward until Schoenfeld moved him back....even then he played many nights as a 4th line wing

This makes up the best blueline in the NHL? I think not. Of the 8 guys you mention you have 3 good players (not all-stars by any stretch), 2 journymen, and 3 rookies

Puppa, meanwhile, experienced the joys of dealing with a defence that included the inconsistent Roman Hamrlik, Bill Houlder, Cory Cross, Michel Petit, Igor Ulanov and David Shaw. They were so desparate, they dressed Adrian Plavsic for seven games. Also, Tampa was a very run-and-gun oriented team that year, and Puppa had to fend for himself many nights. If you thought Olaf Kolzig's numbers were bad in 1995-96, you should see Puppa's three back-ups from that season.

The Caps had better D than TB, you wont get an arguement from me on that...but this run-and-gun TB team scored exactly 4 more goals than the Caps.....and as I said, Puppa would have been a legit choice....as was Carey

I think the fair comparison is Kolzig to Reese....they played almost the same amount with very similar numbers.....both well below the starters. It should also be noted that Carey played almost 1000 more minutes than Puppa. The Caps totally relied on him.....

While Carey was very good in 1996, and better than some of the goalies tossed out earlier, it still confounds me to this day how Carey beat Puppa for the Vezina, and that has been my point from the start. It's interesting to note that Carey earned only five of 26 first place votes (nine goalies received first place votes that year), and won the award by only six points over Osgood. It's also interesting to note that Carey flopped in the 1996 playoffs, while Kolzig re-emerged as the team's No. 1.

Carey was better than just "very good"...he really was. I dont remember how the voting went. Are you going by memory or can you show me a link on this?

PS: About my "grandfather" comment, perhaps hyperbole and sarcasm are new to some people.

I dont see it as sarcasm at all.....your point was anyone could have done well...I think you are and were wrong. Kolzig, who was older and once viewed as the future #1 did awful in net

 

[reckoning]

Regarding Carey`s `96 season, I`m not trying to say that he had a lousy year; just that I think the case for the other eight goalies I mentioned was as strong if not stronger than the case for Carey. When I picked him as the worst Vezina winner ever, i admit forgetting about Vanbiesbrouck`s `86 award until John Flyers Fan mentioned it here.

A couple of years ago I decided to pick a season at random to do some statistical analysis on, and it happened to be the `95-`96 season, so I already have a lot of this information ready:

1995-96 Shots Allowed per Game:

1. Detroit 24.0
2. Washington 24.6
3. Philadelphia 25.4
4. New Jersey 26.1
-
-
10. Tampa Bay 29.2
-
-
25. Los Angeles 34.7
26. Buffalo 35.1

Washington`s defence was in fact one of the best in the league that year (Tinordi was particularly strong); Tampa Bay`s, while not as bad as I thought it might be, wasn`t anything overly impressive. Hasek didn`t receive much Vezina support likely because Buffalo missed the playoffs, but the above chart shows that the team in front of him was to blame for that.

1995-96 Vezina Voting Results:

1. Jim Carey 52 ( 5 - 7 - 6 )
2. Chris Osgood 46 ( 5 - 6 - 3 )
3. Daren Puppa 34 ( 4 - 3 - 5 )
4. Martin Brodeur 31 ( 4 - 3 - 2 )
5. Ron Hextall 23 ( 2 - 3 - 4 )
6. Grant Fuhr 21 ( 2 - 3 - 2 )
7. John Vanbiesbrouck 11 ( 2 - 0 - 1 )
8. Dominik Hasek 9 ( 1 - 1 - 1 )
9. Patrick Roy 5 (1 - 0 - 0 )
10. Guy Hebert 1 ( 0 - 0 - 1 )
10. Bill Ranford 1 ( 0 - 0 - 1 )

It wasn`t exactly a runaway victory for Carey, it seems like there were several guys who were considered legitimate candidates. The Vezina voting is done by the GMs; in the all-star voting which is done by the writers Puppa finished even lower in 5th place. Felix Potvin and Sean Burke both had great years but weren`t named on anybody`s ballot. How Ranford got a vote with one of the worst save percentages in the league is beyond me.
Also, for much of the year Grant Fuhr was being touted as a top Vezina and MVP candidate due to the fact that he was playing almost every game and playing well, but towards the last twenty games the workload caught up with him and his numbers started to decline, taking him out of the race.

 

[Mothra]

Regarding Carey`s `96 season, I`m not trying to say that he had a lousy year; just that I think the case for the other eight goalies I mentioned was as strong if not stronger than the case for Carey.

What you are saying is Carey should not even have been a finalist...and I think that is just wrong....as usual there are a couple other guys that had a legit chance at winning....but this is what you said "at least 8 goalies were more deserving of this award than Carey" and thats outragous.....The Caps D was nothing more than solid....they had no all-stars (or even close)...they played more of an aggresive style of hockey as opposed to tight checking....he carried them into the playoffs just as others you seem to praise. He was a legit choice...debatable (as just about every year) but certainly legit

 

[BwayBshirt]

i remember tampa bay in '96...they were not a run-'n-gun team by any stretch of the imagination. terry crisp had them playing (let's say this all together now) a neutral zone trap. the only running 'n gunning that team did came from the euros like klima, selivanov, and hamrlik...with some bradley and ysebaert on the side.

and btw, i like to point out one of the bad adams awards finalists in recent memory if i may.

2002: ftorek being named a finalist over laviolette. no way he deserved it. laviolette led of the biggest turnarounds in NHL history with the isles' in his very first season as a coach.that accomplishment was way better than ftorek taking over a bruins team that just barely missed the playoffs the year before.

 

[pei fan]

COME ON GUYS! How could you miss the worse choice for an award in the history
of the game.Booby Orr wins the scoring race (and does much more) and the Hart
trophy goes to Bobby Clarke.Quite frankly Orr was robbed several years because
their were sports writers that thought he shouldn't get votes for the Hart because
he got them for the Norris.Some of those sports writers saw the hart as being for
the Most Valuable Forward.However 1975 is well recognized as the worst selection of all time.

About 2002 Conn Smythe -Lidstrom might ACTUALLY be one of the most deserving
winners of that Trophy.Doesn't anybody remember the icetime he logged? Bowman
wouldn't let him off the ice.The final game was over 50 minutes and he averaged
something like 40.Truly one of the most amazing feats in the game.Bowman made
a pretty clear statement as to who he valued the most,and he is qualified,right?