Laphroaig
Registered User
Brit Selby is the first guy that jumps to mind for me. Pretty mediocre career. The year he won the Calder there really weren't any rookie performances worthy of the award.
Really? That isn't clear.Brit Selby... the year he won the Calder there really weren't any rookie performances worthy of the award.
Something of a ranking of the best NHL careers of Calder Winners
1. Bobby Orr
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Ray Bourque
4. Alex Ovechkin
5. Glenn Hall
6. Martin Brodeur
7. Denis Potvin
8. Bryan Trottier
9. Terry Sawchuk
10. Mike Bossy
11. Syl Apps
12. Ken Dryden
13. Evgeni Malkin
14. Peter Forsberg
15. Frank Brimsek
16. Bernard Geoffrion
17. Patrick Kane
18. Teemu Selanne
19. Frank Mahovlich
20. Ed Belfour
21. Brian Leetch
22. Dave Keon
23. Tony Esposito
24. Peter Stastny
25. Gilbert Perreault
Pretty amazing that more than 1/5 of the recent HOH Top 100 list were former Calder winners!
Three NYIs in the Top 10 ! You know your team is going to be good when you get 3 Calder winners within 5 years and they all go on to fulfill their promises.
the other 3 calders in 5 years was calgary in 86, 88, 90.
so this is kind of nuts: they added one of the top five offensive defensemen who will never ever make the hall of fame, a guy who stepped in and immediately put up back to back 50 goal seasons, and old but still point/game sergei makarov. none were even top guys on their 89 cup team: one was injured basically the entire run, another was their third best center, the last wasn’t even in the team. how did that team win zero playoff rounds in the 90s?
Because they became a disgruntled mess with GMs and coaches that were below average to downright terrible.
ha, that was a rhetorical question.
but i do think that a team that was good enough to win the cup and which was the deepest in the league should on talent alone have at least won one round between 90 and 95.
even assuming the accelerated attrition of an early 90s canadian team at the beginning of the weak dollar era, if you add three guys, all three of whom was a non-indispensable member of the team, two of whom contributed next to nothing (one literally nothing), and those guys all won the calder and peaked (as NHLers) immediately and one was a HOVG defender, another was a borderline HHOFer, and the third was an all time great at the end of his prime (makarov was the 11th highest scoring winger between 90 and 92, one pt behind gartner, two pts ahead of muller, fewer games than both), that’s a lot to add to the actual 89 flames core of macinnis, mullen, otto, gilmour, vernon, all squarely in their primes, and 4/5 at their peaks.
all to say, it takes a very special “disgruntled mess with GMs and coaches that were below average to downright terrible” to tank that collection of talent (+ an emergent fleury + an excellent offensive prospect in reichel + one of the previous decade’s best goalie prospects in kidd + the decently highly touted and NHL-ready ranheim and matteau).
True enough, but you're depicting it a bit selectively. The 1991-92 season (after the Gilmour trade/debacle) was a total write-off for the Flames, but the following few regular seasons were still very impressive:Lets see iirc they went out vs Kings and Oilers in 90 and 91. The Risebrough took over and sent Gilmour to his former boss in Toronto and so begins the downward spiral up to 96...
Where’s Pavel Bure ?
18th???Something of a ranking of the best NHL careers of Calder Winners
1. Bobby Orr
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Ray Bourque
4. Alex Ovechkin
5. Glenn Hall
6. Martin Brodeur
7. Denis Potvin
8. Bryan Trottier
9. Terry Sawchuk
10. Mike Bossy
11. Syl Apps
12. Ken Dryden
13. Evgeni Malkin
14. Peter Forsberg
15. Frank Brimsek
16. Bernard Geoffrion
17. Patrick Kane
18. Teemu Selanne
The best careers, not rookie seasons18th???
Selanne's 76 goals led the league, he was the 1st team all-star right winger AND he received EVERY 1st place vote in the Calder trophy race.
He was like an F1 Ferrari against NASCAR Fords.
He was one of the three greatest rookie phenomena I've ever seen.
(Note: TTDM. Your ranking of Brodeur 6th is the biggest HOMER thing i've ever seen you do. He didn't even get 50% of the first place votes, wasn't top 5 at his position, really did NOT have one of the best Calder trophy rookie seasons of all time.)
Seasonwise, Selanne's is right up near the top.This is a discussion for both career-wise and season wise. Example - Raycrofts career was short, but his Calder winning year was outstanding.
The Calder is based on who has the best rookie season, does it really matter if they had a bad career after winning it?
Brit Selby is the first guy that jumps to mind for me. Pretty mediocre career. The year he won the Calder there really weren't any rookie performances worthy of the award.
Really? That isn't clear.
Brit Selby, LW, Toronto........ 98 votes
Bert Marshall, D, Detroit..... 90 votes
Gilles Marotte, D, Boston.....68 votes
Bernie Parent, G, Boston..... 49 votes
(no one else even had 8 votes)
1. It was a close vote. 6'3 tall Bert Marshall had 19 assists and +25 (8th best in the NHL), 2nd on Wings blueline just a tiny bit shy of Doug Barkley, who was 5th in Norris voting. Marshall showed his rookie skills in the playoffs with 4 points, 16 shots and +3 (no Wings dman had better such stats) in a Stanley Cup Finals run. Marshall went on to a solid 14-year NHL career, eventually alternate captain of the Islanders and touted veteran "mentor of Denis Potvin". Marshall is famous for always saying: "I don't get paid to score goals."
so greatest calder winning rookie seasons of all time, who has an argument over selanne?
i'd give a shoutout to hawerchuk in '82. took a last place team that drafted him to third place in the campbell's conference. i know playoffs don't count, but even though they got bounced 3-1 in the first round despite having home ice, hawerchuk scored eight points in those four games, including four points in the jets only win (5-2 score).
45 goals, 103 points, 5th in hart voting, more fringe consideration than selanne got in '93.
so greatest calder winning rookie seasons of all time, who has an argument over selanne?
i'd give a shoutout to hawerchuk in '82. took a last place team that drafted him to third place in the campbell's conference. i know playoffs don't count, but even though they got bounced 3-1 in the first round despite having home ice, hawerchuk scored eight points in those four games, including four points in the jets only win (5-2 score).
45 goals, 103 points, 5th in hart voting, more fringe consideration than selanne got in '93.
6th in Hart voting. His team didn't make the playoffs, but harder to do when 16 of 30 teams made it vs 16 of 21.
And he put up those stats with virtually no help whatsoever, no offense to Dainius Zubrus: 2005-06 Washington Capitals Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
Ovechkin 2005-06 has a good case for best Calder winning season ever.
52-54-106. 3rd in both goals and points. Pretty sure that 3rd place finish in points was the highest of any rookie ever, other than the ineligible Gretzky. (By comparison, Selanne tied for 1st in goals, while finishing 5th in points in 1992-93. Hawerchuk was 12th in points in his rookie year.)
6th in Hart voting. His team didn't make the playoffs, but harder to do when 16 of 30 teams made it vs 16 of 21.
And he put up those stats with virtually no help whatsoever, no offense to Dainius Zubrus: 2005-06 Washington Capitals Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com. Selanne at least had peak Housley feeding him outlet passes: 1992-93 Winnipeg Jets Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com.
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Frank Brimsek is another possibility, though it is hard to evaluate goalies from back then. He led the league in wins, shutouts, and GAA. But Boston goalie Tiny Thompson's stats were almost as good the previous year, so there were definitely some team effects there. Brimsek was much better than Thompson ever was in the playoffs, however.
true, but he finished fourth last, 27/30. last in their division, second last in their conference. that doesn't make the playoffs in any era.
for comparison, selanne's jets finished 13th and in the playoffs (fourth/final seed in their division, 7th in the conference).
hawerchuk's jets finished 10th and had home ice (second seed in their division, 3rd in the conference).
though as you say, that washington team was absolutely horrendous.
Ovechkin 2005-06 has a good case for best Calder winning season ever.
52-54-106. 3rd in both goals and points. Pretty sure that 3rd place finish in points was the highest of any rookie ever, other than the ineligible Gretzky. (By comparison, Selanne tied for 1st in goals, while finishing 5th in points in 1992-93. Hawerchuk was 12th in points in his rookie year.)
6th in Hart voting. His team didn't make the playoffs, but harder to do when 16 of 30 teams made it vs 16 of 21.
And he put up those stats with virtually no help whatsoever, no offense to Dainius Zubrus: 2005-06 Washington Capitals Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com. Selanne at least had peak Housley feeding him outlet passes: 1992-93 Winnipeg Jets Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com.
___________
Frank Brimsek is another possibility, though it is hard to evaluate goalies from back then. He led the league in wins, shutouts, and GAA. But Boston goalie Tiny Thompson's stats were almost as good the previous year, so there were definitely some team effects there. Brimsek was much better than Thompson ever was in the playoffs, however.
Ovechkin was just 11th in even-strength scoring - actually having more powerplay points (52) than even-strength points (51). Without the unusual frequency in 2005-06 of awarded powerplays benefiting his exact skill set, he’s likely falling closer to his 2006-07 numbers.
By contrast, Selanne’s 83 even-strength points trailed just Yzerman (87) and Lemieux (96).
Was it easier for Ovechkin to put up PP points (relative to the rest of the league) in 2005-06 than Selanne in 1992-93, or was Ovechkin just better on the PP? Ovechkin's 52 PPP led his team by a wide margin; Zubrus was next with 26 PPP. So it's certainly not the case of Ovechkin racking up points on a stacked PP.
This argument would be more interesting if it was showed that rookie Selanne saw comparatively less PP time.