Laphroaig
Registered User
Brit Selby is the first guy that jumps to mind for me. Pretty mediocre career. The year he won the Calder there really weren't any rookie performances worthy of the award.
Worst/Best Calder Winners
- Thread starter Voight
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Really? That isn't clear.
Brit Selby, LW, Toronto........ 98 votes
Bert Marshall, D, Detroit..... 90 votes
Gilles Marotte, D, Boston.....68 votes
Bernie Parent, G, Boston..... 49 votes
(no one else even had 8 votes)
1. It was a close vote. 6'3 tall Bert Marshall had 19 assists and +25 (8th best in the NHL), 2nd on Wings blueline just a tiny bit shy of Doug Barkley, who was 5th in Norris voting. Marshall showed his rookie skills in the playoffs with 4 points, 16 shots and +3 (no Wings dman had better such stats) in a Stanley Cup Finals run. Marshall went on to a solid 14-year NHL career, eventually alternate captain of the Islanders and touted veteran "mentor of Denis Potvin". Marshall is famous for always saying: "I don't get paid to score goals."
2. Marotte and Parent likely split a lot of Boston votes (related, voters in Ontario would have seen more of Selby in Toronto). Marotte had 203 shots as a defenseman, only Bobby Orr and eight forwards had more than the tough defenseman who also was 6th in NHL penalties. The following year he was one of the pieces Boston traded to acquire Esposito. Marotte went on to a solid career, and would have been a decent Calder winner it seems. If young flashy Bernie Parent hadn't caught voters eyes at Boston Garden, several of those Parent votes might have gone to Calder finalist Marotte.
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BenchBrawl
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Three NYIs in the Top 10 ! You know your team is going to be good when you get 3 Calder winners within 5 years and they all go on to fulfill their promises.
vadim sharifijanov
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the other 3 calders in 5 years was calgary in 86, 88, 90.
so this is kind of nuts: they added one of the top five offensive defensemen who will never ever make the hall of fame, a guy who stepped in and immediately put up back to back 50 goal seasons, and old but still point/game sergei makarov. none were even top guys on their 89 cup team: one was injured basically the entire run, another was their third best center, the last wasn’t even in the team. how did that team win zero playoff rounds in the 90s?
Hobnobs
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Because they became a disgruntled mess with GMs and coaches that were below average to downright terrible.
vadim sharifijanov
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ha, that was a rhetorical question.
but i do think that a team that was good enough to win the cup and which was the deepest in the league should on talent alone have at least won one round between 90 and 95.
even assuming the accelerated attrition of an early 90s canadian team at the beginning of the weak dollar era, if you add three guys, all three of whom was a non-indispensable member of the team, two of whom contributed next to nothing (one literally nothing), and those guys all won the calder and peaked (as NHLers) immediately and one was a HOVG defender, another was a borderline HHOFer, and the third was an all time great at the end of his prime (makarov was the 11th highest scoring winger between 90 and 92, one pt behind gartner, two pts ahead of muller, fewer games than both), that’s a lot to add to the actual 89 flames core of macinnis, mullen, otto, gilmour, vernon, all squarely in their primes, and 4/5 at their peaks.
all to say, it takes a very special “disgruntled mess with GMs and coaches that were below average to downright terrible” to tank that collection of talent (+ an emergent fleury + an excellent offensive prospect in reichel + one of the previous decade’s best goalie prospects in kidd + the decently highly touted and NHL-ready ranheim and matteau).
Hobnobs
Pinko
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Id say that Calgary was a very special disgruntled mess
Rhetorical or not someone might actually wonder what happened to the flames. Lets see iirc they went out vs Kings and Oilers in 90 and 91. The Risebrough took over and sent Gilmour to his former boss in Toronto and so begins the downward spiral up to 96 when Al Coates took over Niuwendyk went on strike. Coates is what I believe the only one that did a decent job during this time period for Flames. Brought in guys like Giguere, Regehr, Savard, Valeri Bure over his time. Then came Craig "Nail in the Coffin" Button. His first trade iirc was to give away Giguere to Anaheim. Then ofc the infamous Savard trade.
Add having two very overrated and frankly poor NHL coaches in Dave King and Pierre Page to that and yea. Disaster.
The Panther
Registered User
True enough, but you're depicting it a bit selectively. The 1991-92 season (after the Gilmour trade/debacle) was a total write-off for the Flames, but the following few regular seasons were still very impressive:
1992-93: .577 (2nd place)
1993-94: .577 (1st place)
1995: .573 (1st place)
For all the flack Dave King gets, he went 109-76-31 (.576), during which period the Flames had the 5th best (of 26 teams) record in the NHL, with the 4th-best goal differential.
Then again, this is the franchise that fired the head coach who had the #1 record in the NHL over his three seasons...
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I had to cut things off somewhere and chose a top 25.
Bure vs Perreault is an argument I'd be willing to listen to.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
18th???
Selanne's 76 goals led the league, he was the 1st team all-star right winger AND he received EVERY 1st place vote in the Calder trophy race.
He was like an F1 Ferrari against NASCAR Fords.
He was one of the three greatest rookie phenomena I've ever seen.
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Mattavarner
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Seasonwise, Selanne's is right up near the top.
Careerwise, that's basic all-time career ranking (Selanne not top 5).
The Calder is based on who has the best rookie season, does it really matter if they had a bad career after winning it?
TheDevilMadeMe
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vadim sharifijanov
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so greatest calder winning rookie seasons of all time, who has an argument over selanne?
i'd give a shoutout to hawerchuk in '82. took a last place team that drafted him to third place in the campbell's conference. i know playoffs don't count, but even though they got bounced 3-1 in the first round despite having home ice, hawerchuk scored eight points in those four games, including four points in the jets only win (5-2 score).
45 goals, 103 points, 5th in hart voting, more fringe consideration than selanne got in '93.
i'd give a shoutout to hawerchuk in '82. took a last place team that drafted him to third place in the campbell's conference. i know playoffs don't count, but even though they got bounced 3-1 in the first round despite having home ice, hawerchuk scored eight points in those four games, including four points in the jets only win (5-2 score).
45 goals, 103 points, 5th in hart voting, more fringe consideration than selanne got in '93.
Not to re-litigate this vote, but I did some fiddling with numbers, and the voting results are hilarious in retrospect given what we now know about their stats. The 65-66 season ended with 4 teams with positive goal differentials (Montreal, Chicago, Toronto and Detroit), and 2 bottom feeders in Boston and New York. Brit Selby's final line was 61 games, 14 goals, 13 assists, 27 points, +3, with the team scoring splits breaking down as follows: 23 games against Boston and New York, 11 goals, 11 assists, 22 points, +14, and 38 games against Montreal, Chicago and Detroit, 3 goals, 2 assists, 5 points, -11. I've done some harping about team splits, but the disparity here was so wide I just had to comment about it.
There's also something to be said about Detroit's GF/GA numbers that year without Marshall, with Marshall and prior to Barkley's injury, and after the Red Wings acquired Leo Boivin, but that's beyond any sort of Calder discussion. Suffice it to say that in the half-season (34 games) with both Marshall and Barkley in the lineup, Detroit was +42 in goal differential, 122/80. Their seasonal numbers were 221/194, so you can see the difference in the other half of games.
JackSlater
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Tony Esposito has a case. Very dominant season, first team all star goaltender, second in Hart voting to Orr's first peak season with a huge gap down to third. A few other goaltenders (Sawchuk, Brimsek, Belfour, Barrasso) came in and at least dominated their position but I don't think that they matched Esposito. I think that Ovechkin's rookie year was pretty comparable to Selanne's as well.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Ovechkin 2005-06 has a good case for best Calder winning season ever.
52-54-106. 3rd in both goals and points. Pretty sure that 3rd place finish in points was the highest of any rookie ever, other than the ineligible Gretzky. (By comparison, Selanne tied for 1st in goals, while finishing 5th in points in 1992-93. Hawerchuk was 12th in points in his rookie year.)
6th in Hart voting. His team didn't make the playoffs, but harder to do when 16 of 30 teams made it vs 16 of 21.
And he put up those stats with virtually no help whatsoever, no offense to Dainius Zubrus: 2005-06 Washington Capitals Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com. Selanne at least had peak Housley feeding him outlet passes: 1992-93 Winnipeg Jets Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com.
___________
Frank Brimsek is another possibility, though it is hard to evaluate goalies from back then. He led the league in wins, shutouts, and GAA. But Boston goalie Tiny Thompson's stats were almost as good the previous year, so there were definitely some team effects there. Brimsek was much better than Thompson ever was in the playoffs, however.
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vadim sharifijanov
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true, but he finished fourth last, 27/30. last in their division, second last in their conference. that doesn't make the playoffs in any era.
for comparison, selanne's jets finished 13th and in the playoffs (fourth/final seed in their division, 7th in the conference).
hawerchuk's jets finished 10th and had home ice (second seed in their division, 3rd in the conference).
though as you say, that washington team was absolutely horrendous.
Voight
#winning
This was my answer as well. Ovechkin had one helluva rookie season and one we may not see again. Don't think even McDavid finished that high in points even if he had played a full season.
Nobody except maybe Gretzky is making the playoffs while playing on a line with Jeff Halpern & Danius Zubrus. Throw in a past his prime sub .900 SV% Kolzig and that team was lucky not to finish dead last.
Hell, I wonder how many guys on that team were still playing in the NHL 2 years later.
Star Ocean
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quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Ovechkin was just 11th in even-strength scoring - actually having more powerplay points (52) than even-strength points (51). Without the unusual frequency in 2005-06 of awarded powerplays benefiting his exact skill set, he’s likely falling closer to his 2006-07 numbers.
By contrast, Selanne’s 83 even-strength points trailed just Yzerman (87) and Lemieux (96).
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Was it easier for Ovechkin to put up PP points (relative to the rest of the league) in 2005-06 than Selanne in 1992-93, or was Ovechkin just better on the PP? Ovechkin's 52 PPP led his team by a wide margin; Zubrus was next with 26 PPP. So it's certainly not the case of Ovechkin racking up points on a stacked PP.
This argument would be more interesting if it was showed that rookie Selanne saw comparatively less PP time.
vadim sharifijanov
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i think qpq's argument wasn't so much that ovechkin "benefited" from more pp opportunities than selanne, so much as ovechkin dominated on the pp, less so at es. selanne was the other way around, so he would have theoretically done better than ovechkin in less PP-slanted years. though yes, both '93 and '06 were heavy PP seasons.
however, one hypothesis that is almost certainly off the table here is that selanne might have finished higher than 5th in scoring in a less PP-heavy season. he is tied with or behind all of mario, lafontaine, and yzerman in PP points, and give points up on oates. oates has a 10 point cushion on him, by dint of 15 extra special teams points. that's an awful lot of points to make up, especially considering that oates was not far behind him in ES production at all.
but here's the data:
ovechkin at ES — 51 (11th, 21 from #1, 20 from #2, 11 from #3)
selanne at ES — 83 (3rd, 13 from #1, 4 from #2, 12 from #10)
ovechkin on PP — 52 (2nd, 4 from #1, tied with #3, 6 from #10)
selanne on PP — 49 (13th, 14 from #1, 13 from #2, 9 from #3)
washington: 26th in PP goals, 12th in PP opportunities, 26th in PP%
winnipeg: 5th in PP goals, 3rd in PP opportunities, 8th in PP%
i guess the competing arguments are ovechkin was probably out there for more than his fair share of PP time (the math says he was on the ice for a little over 2/3 of his team's man advantage icetime) while selanne had almost ideal teammate customization at ES (i.e., housley and two very good playmaking centers rotating onto his line).
but relative to the rest of their leagues, ovechkin certainly didn't have any advantage on the PP other than icetime (he was 8th in the league in PP TOI). his team's PP sucked and had an average amount of opportunities. selanne, meanwhile, was on a good PP, with an even better PP player than himself (housley, 5th in the league), and the team had a lot of PP opportunities.
afaik, we don't have the icetime numbers for '93, but selanne likely would have played significantly less of his team's PP time than ovechkin. his team had two good units, with probably housley on the ice for most of the time, olausson and numminen splitting the rest of the time at the point, and a first unit of shannon - steen - selanne (98 combined PP points) spelled by a very capable, if young, tkachuk - zhamnov - olczyk/davydov (61 combined PP points). but at the same time, his team had a lot more PP opportunities relative to the rest of the league than ovechkin's did.
and the last bit of detail, which is actually quite surprising, is winnipeg in the inflated PP year of 1993, was #3 in the league with 468 PP opportunities. washington in 2006 was #12 with 490. i didn't realize there was such a discrepancy.
however, one hypothesis that is almost certainly off the table here is that selanne might have finished higher than 5th in scoring in a less PP-heavy season. he is tied with or behind all of mario, lafontaine, and yzerman in PP points, and give points up on oates. oates has a 10 point cushion on him, by dint of 15 extra special teams points. that's an awful lot of points to make up, especially considering that oates was not far behind him in ES production at all.
but here's the data:
ovechkin at ES — 51 (11th, 21 from #1, 20 from #2, 11 from #3)
selanne at ES — 83 (3rd, 13 from #1, 4 from #2, 12 from #10)
ovechkin on PP — 52 (2nd, 4 from #1, tied with #3, 6 from #10)
selanne on PP — 49 (13th, 14 from #1, 13 from #2, 9 from #3)
washington: 26th in PP goals, 12th in PP opportunities, 26th in PP%
winnipeg: 5th in PP goals, 3rd in PP opportunities, 8th in PP%
i guess the competing arguments are ovechkin was probably out there for more than his fair share of PP time (the math says he was on the ice for a little over 2/3 of his team's man advantage icetime) while selanne had almost ideal teammate customization at ES (i.e., housley and two very good playmaking centers rotating onto his line).
but relative to the rest of their leagues, ovechkin certainly didn't have any advantage on the PP other than icetime (he was 8th in the league in PP TOI). his team's PP sucked and had an average amount of opportunities. selanne, meanwhile, was on a good PP, with an even better PP player than himself (housley, 5th in the league), and the team had a lot of PP opportunities.
afaik, we don't have the icetime numbers for '93, but selanne likely would have played significantly less of his team's PP time than ovechkin. his team had two good units, with probably housley on the ice for most of the time, olausson and numminen splitting the rest of the time at the point, and a first unit of shannon - steen - selanne (98 combined PP points) spelled by a very capable, if young, tkachuk - zhamnov - olczyk/davydov (61 combined PP points). but at the same time, his team had a lot more PP opportunities relative to the rest of the league than ovechkin's did.
and the last bit of detail, which is actually quite surprising, is winnipeg in the inflated PP year of 1993, was #3 in the league with 468 PP opportunities. washington in 2006 was #12 with 490. i didn't realize there was such a discrepancy.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Being top-3 in ES scoring and top-15 in PP scoring seems like it would lend itself better in most years than being top-15 in ES scoring and top-3 in PP scoring.
Just maybe not 2005-06 when Ovechkin saw the 4th most PP TOI a forward has had since the league started keeping track in 1997-98.
Look at the ESP: PPP ratio for the highest-scoring rookie seasons since 1979 expansion:
83:49, 74:33, 51:52 (Ovechkin), 67:34, 53:47 (Crosby), 65:37, 67:33, 68:26, 42:45 (Nieuwendyk), 57:30. Go down the top-50, and you add a 2006-07 rookie (Malkin) and Brian Leetch with close ratios.
Basically just looking a three rookies from the immediate post-lockout crackdown, a defenseman, and Joe Nieuwendyk (who Crisp planted in front of goalies on Calgary’s powerplays) who have put up those ratios. Every other rookie’s primary source for points has been even-strength scoring, so being a top-3 ES scorer and top-15 PP scorer is probably the better formula in most cases.
And given that Ovechkin’s ratios shifted significantly in his Pearson/Lindsay seasons when the crackdown ended (75:37, 63:46, 73:36), it seems like a normal distribution in league scoring would have made a top-3 PP scorer, top-15 ES scorer less of a standout had it not been 2005-06.
