World Juniors' Attendance

[seanlinden]

Another problem: Tournaments of this calibre should not be held in NHL Arenas, especially outside of Canada. Filling an 18,000-20,000 Arena is possible for a Canada game without devaluing the tickets, it's not for a USA or European game. The tournament has only really grown in popularity the past few years....and look at the past venues:

Saskatchewan = Credit Union Centre (WHL) 14,700 & Brandt Centre (WHL) 7000
Ottawa = Scotiabank Place (NHL) 19,000 & Civic Centre (10,000)
Czech Republic = CEZ Arena (Czech League) 10,000 & Tipsport Arena (Czech League) 7500
Sweden = Tegera Arena (SEL) 7650 & FM Mattsson Arena (SEL) 4500
British Columbia = General Motors Place (NHL) 18,630, Pacific Coliseum (WHL) 16,083 & Interior Savings Centre (WHL) 6400, Prospera Place (WHL) 6800. *
North Dakota = Ralph Engelstad Arena (NCAA) 11,500 & Ralph Engelstad Arena (High School) 3500.

*GM place was only used for medal round.

Anyone else see something wrong with using an 18,000 seat Arena + 2000 seat Arena in Buffalo, NY? Because the secondary arena is so small, they're obviously trying to pack as many games as possible into the HSBC.... and it's always going to feel empty as a result.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

That is true too... maybe, instead of having the first US game last night, swap it with tonight's Slovakia-Germany game.

The US game could have been the only game on today's schedule - you would also avoid a Bills conflict.

Then make a day of it. At noon, have a small parade to celebrate the WJR's in Buffalo. Then, an hour or two before the game, have a ceremony in the arena. Heck, spend the money to bring back the US kids who won last year. Give them a 2nd Ceremonial Gold Medal.

Do something to make it special. They way they handled it, they saved money and no one noticed.

Again doing that right before the games are about to start is not the way to go.Having a parade and to celeabrate right when the tournemant is starting your just asking for trouble players won't be ready to play etc.Yes maybe 3-6 weeks ago would not have been possible then do it in aug or even late july.They could even had a 2 day event lastw eek include a fan fest have a parade etc.

 

[centzon]

But when the US wins the tournament, US fans on HF act like they've REALLY accomplished something.

I mean, you have to pick a side. You either totally care about the tournament (thus the attendence in US and no coverage) or you don't (when US wins).

I don't see anything hypocritical or contradictory about what MountainHawk said. I'm an American and I DO care about the tournament, as do quite a few others here on HFBoards, but I'm well aware of the fact the number of Americans who are remotely invested in this are an extreme, and I do mean extreme, minority. I went to my local AHL team's most recent game rocking my USA Hockey gear, and no one sitting around me -- all dedicated hockey fans, many of them season ticket holders -- even knew that the WJC was taking place. Honestly, given that there is pretty much ZERO media coverage of this in the States, I can't blame them.

It's not at all a stretch to say that, by and large, Canada is the only country as a whole to really care about the tournament, even if there are posters of other nationalities who love it as well and trumpet their team's success. I wish it were otherwise (and it might be if it were promoted properly in this country), but reality is reality.

 

[BlackAces*]

Americans have a curiously low relationship engagement with international team sports. Most of the time, interest in US team sports is very low. Look at our national baseball team - do Americans care about the World Baseball Classic or Olympic Baseball? Barely. Do we care about our 'Dream Team' in hoops? Not that much, win or lose.World Cup Soccer? Interest is growing, but still relatively minor. USA Hockey teams? They cared in 1980, when it was the upset of the Russians. Since then, not so much - a brief wave of interest in 2002 and 2010 when playing for a gold medal, but nothing that really capitivated the country. World Junior hockey? 99% of Americans don't even know its being played.

American's love individuals in international sports, and they love doemstic team sports, especially the NFL. But international team sports are low on the American totem pole.

Strange...especially given that the Miracle on Ice team is seen as one of, if not the, most influential sporting moments for your country.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

I don't understand your point. The American fans on HF Boards are the ones who care, so we will strut around when the U.S. does well. It is an accomplishment to win the WJCs, regardless of the national interest in this country.

You're pretty much (plus few others) the only one who "cares" about USA enough to know a lot and post a lot about USA (whether it be Juniors or World Championships). I commend you on that, BTW.

There are US fans on HF that act like they don't care when things aren't going well, and then when (all of a sudden) US win, they brag about US hockey.

EDIT: Anyways, I feel like I'm going off-topic now. Sorry about that...

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Again doing that right before the games are about to start is not the way to go.Having a parade and to celeabrate right when the tournemant is starting your just asking for trouble players won't be ready to play etc.Yes maybe 3-6 weeks ago would not have been possible then do it in aug or even late july.They could even had a 2 day event lastw eek include a fan fest have a parade etc.

Fair enough, but in my idea's defence, they could have easily brought back the 15 (or so) kids from last years team and given them something at an opening ceremony without affecting this year's team.

Then they could have put in the Newspapers... "Come see the return of the World Junior Champions"... it would have been nice (IMO) and might have increased ticket sales.

I am not saying my idea is perfect but they could/should have done SOMETHING!

 

[wjhl2009fan]

Fair enough, but in my idea's defence, they could have easily brought back the 15 (or so) kids from last years team and given them something at an opening ceremony without affecting this year's team.

Then they could have put in the Newspapers... "Come see the return of the World Junior Champions"... it would have been nice (IMO) and might have increased ticket sales.

I am not saying my idea is perfect but they could/should have done SOMETHING!

It may have increased tickets sales but its still a gamble to do it that close to the when the game is to start.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

It may have increased tickets sales but its still a gamble to do it that close to the when the game is to start.

Fair enough.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Anyway, at the end of the day I believe USA Hockey and the Sabres saw this as, first and foremost, an opportunity to milk a lot of Canadian dollars out of the Golden Horseshoe.

And, you know what, I am okay with that. It gave me a chance to see my FIRST World Juniors.

I mean, I can always make more money but... this opportunity may never come again.

GO CANADA GO!!!! You looked GREAT yesterday (at least in the 3 period) and you WILL WIN bring home the GOLD!!!! God Bless and Good Luck!!!

 

[dystemper]

I think when all is said and done, this year's tourney will prove to be the most successful one to date.

Average ticket prices are definitely cheaper than Ottawa was 2 years ago (I know becuase I bought tickets for both).

Average attendance will be higher than Ottawa was.

Total revenue will likely exceed that of Ottawa.

you do realize that the 2009 tournament in ottawa broke pretty much every single WJC attendance record ever, right?

i mean, i hope buffalo is successful, but there is no way it'll even come close to matching the numbers ottawa brought in. both the primary (hsbc) and secondary (dwyer) have smaller maximum capacities than their ottawa counterparts. not a single game dipped below 90% capacity at either venue. i mean, even the kazakhstan-germany game had 18000+ in attendance, and the hockey juggernaut that is latvia came close to selling out the civic center every time they played.

i think buffalo will have the strongest attendance of the WJC outside of canada, though.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

copter
It won't pass ottawa in terms of revenue both of ottawa's rinks are bigger them the 2 in buffalo and most games in ottawa had very good attendance.As for avg attendance will be higher don't think so the scotia bank place holds just under 20,000 and the civic centre 10,000.Most of the games in ottawa had very solid support if buffalo had the same size arena they could come close if they had great attendance for almost every game.I hope buffalo has success but it won't match what ottawa did a few years ago it could match last years event.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

copter
It won't pass ottawa in terms of revenue both of ottawa's rinks are bigger them the 2 in buffalo and most games in ottawa had very good attendance.As for avg attendance will be higher don't think so the scotia bank place holds just under 20,000 and the civic centre 10,000.Most of the games in ottawa had very solid support if buffalo had the same size arena they could come close if they had great attendance for almost every game.I hope buffalo has success but it won't match what ottawa did a few years ago it could match last years event.

I believe, years from now, Ottawa will be seen as the pinnacle of success. The best run, best attended and best overall World Juniors ever.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

I believe, years from now, Ottawa will be seen as the pinnacle of success. The best run, best attended and best overall World Juniors ever.

It maybe the thing that shocked me was how we the games at the civic centre got supported.

 

[seanlinden]

I believe, years from now, Ottawa will be seen as the pinnacle of success. The best run, best attended and best overall World Juniors ever.

Calgary-Edmonton certainly has the potential to beat that. 2 NHL arenas, 2 NHL cities, and Calgary has been a growing economic hub.

 

[vcv]

I have to disagree.

You have to consider prices of tickets for the world junior games relative to the price of tickets for NHL games. The "packages" are in the ballpark, or more, than seasons for the Sabres or the Buffalo Bills (football) even. Individual games are quite a bit more expensive than NHL games here.

Obviously they had no problem selling to Canadians who (1) are used to much higher prices (Maple Leafs) (2) whose only major sport is hockey.

Here in Buffalo, Football is a MAJOR competition as far as major sports go. That takes away a lot of fans that might otherwise be into hockey more.

I just think it's a failure to consider the costs for those in Buffalo, not just those in Canada who are more likely to pay more.

---

As far as Larry Quinn goes, considering he's part of the ownership group that owns the Arena, I would think he has a say in Ticket Prices (Golisano likely defers to Larry on hockey business matters).

Sure, they followed the model Canada uses. That's the problem. This isn't Canada.

They should have considered making packages that included only specific games, not all of them. Then they could choose to charge a lot more for the Canada package.

 

[puck swami]

Strange...especially given that the Miracle on Ice team is seen as one of, if not the, most influential sporting moments for your country.

Indeed. That moment was hockey game at its core, but people cared about it not because it was hockey, but because it was a socio-political showdown between two superpowers, where the USA amateurs were the huge underdog against dominant Soviet pros an era of very poor national self-esteem. A week before the Games, 99% of Americans would not have known a single player on that US team. It was the perfect storm of opportunity for USA Hockey and they took avantage of it. Hockey has rarely been in the national spotlight since. No Olympic Gold since then, and the 1996 World Cup win over Canada registered in the hockey community, but not outside it, as few American sports fans were aware of it. And two Gold Medal game appearances in 2002 and 2010 drew attention, but not lasting attention.

We had a little bit of national hand wringing over the 1988 US hoops team loss in Seoul, which was the last time we sent college players to play pros. Since then, America tuned in with a little bit of curiosity for the 1992 Dream Team hoops in Barcelona, but more USA fans were ashamed of the 40 point average victory margin than were interested in genuinely supporting the team. Since then, the Olympic basketball games have become much closer, but I don't get a sense that America really cares who wins in Olympic basketball anymore.

In 1999, the USA women's soccer team made some national impact with the World Cup win, remembered more now for a sports bra than a sports victory, and certainly it was a watershed for women's sports being taken more seriously in this country, but there is no huge groundswell of interest in women's soccer at a spectator level.

Olympic Baseball had a cute moment in 2000 when the minor leaguers won gold under Tommy Lasorda in Sydney, but international baseball barely registers here now.

US Men's Soccer had some nice moments in Korea in 2002 World Cup, beating Portugal and giving Germany a run, but odd viewing times kept national impact down.
This last summer, A tie with England and Landon Donovan's last minute goal against Algeria in South Africa brought people together, but losing to Ghana killed off a lot of good feelings.

All in all, there have been perhaps 5 USA international team sport events that have truly registered on the American national radar screen in the last 50 years.

1. USA beating Soviets in hockey at Lake PLacid, 1980
2. USA losing in basketball to Soviets in Munich, 1972 (very controversial)
3. USA winning women's world cup in 1999
4. US Dream Team demolishes the field in Barcelona in 1992
5. Landon Donovan's goal against Algeria had some national impact (2010)

That's about 1 event every ten years....

 

[wjhl2009fan]

You have to consider prices of tickets for the world junior games relative to the price of tickets for NHL games. The "packages" are in the ballpark, or more, than seasons for the Sabres or the Buffalo Bills (football) even. Individual games are quite a bit more expensive than NHL games here.

Obviously they had no problem selling to Canadians who (1) are used to much higher prices (Maple Leafs) (2) whose only major sport is hockey.

Here in Buffalo, Football is a MAJOR competition as far as major sports go. That takes away a lot of fans that might otherwise be into hockey more.

I just think it's a failure to consider the costs for those in Buffalo, not just those in Canada who are more likely to pay more.

---

As far as Larry Quinn goes, considering he's part of the ownership group that owns the Arena, I would think he has a say in Ticket Prices (Golisano likely defers to Larry on hockey business matters).

Sure, they followed the model Canada uses. That's the problem. This isn't Canada.

They should have considered making packages that included only specific games, not all of them. Then they could choose to charge a lot more for the Canada package.

So you would perfer to have empty seats vs team canada fans is that your point.

 

[Murphy9]

It probably has to due with the ticket deals, in my opinion.
Until like a month ago, you had to buy packages that included tickets to every single game at both arenas which started at about $500.
Then like a month ago, they introduced day passes and then finally single tickets about two weeks ago.
I get that they want to sell tickets to less popular games so they package them, but they waited much too long to start selling packages that were less than every single game.

Also if you notice the Switzerland-Germany game attendance, it was a lot for a game no one would be incredibly interested in.
It's probably because the tickets cost half of what the USA game cost, so people know they can still experience the World Juniors without being price gouged.

I don't know if Canadians realize it or not, but the WJHC literally isn't talked about here.
I mean, the NHL is hardly even talked about by ESPN.
We do not have a dedicated channel here in Buffalo for hockey either or even sports, so it's not like we can carry the games or hype them.
Our games are simply carried by MSG which talks about NYC basketball and football all day, then cuts to our games when they are on.
It's not a holiday tradition for most even here in Buffalo, which I think is a "good hockey market", because there simply isn't access to the games.

Since we're the almighty US, offering someone else's TV channels like TSN in cable or satellite packages would probably make us cry ourselves to sleep at night since American programming is superior programming.
It doesn't help that TSN blacks out all the games that they stream either.
NHL Network does carry the US and Canadian games, but it's still a premium channel.
I believe only started carrying the tournament last year, so I'm not sure how many people know about it.
It's not like people think hockey and holidays means World Juniors like they do in Canada.

Personally, I wouldn't spend any money to see Team USA and I'm a US citizen.
The only thing exciting about the team to me is that they are defending champs.
Maybe I feel that way because I've always cheered for Canada and against the US for as long as I can remember, but I'd just rather spend my money (and in fact, I have spent my money on Canada instead) to see a team I know something about and that has big names.

It will just never be that big anywhere outside of Canada in my opinion.
Hockey is still a niche sport here and there isn't as much media coverage, so it can't become a tradition for many or anything like it is in Canada.

this.We only have ESPN in the states and since we the NHL doesnt have a contract with them, the NHL is rarely if ever talked about.The only hockey Iv seen on there was about Crosby's point streak.If NHL could get back on ESPN, it may become popular again.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

You have to consider prices of tickets for the world junior games relative to the price of tickets for NHL games. The "packages" are in the ballpark, or more, than seasons for the Sabres or the Buffalo Bills (football) even. Individual games are quite a bit more expensive than NHL games here.

Obviously they had no problem selling to Canadians who (1) are used to much higher prices (Maple Leafs) (2) whose only major sport is hockey.

Here in Buffalo, Football is a MAJOR competition as far as major sports go. That takes away a lot of fans that might otherwise be into hockey more.

I just think it's a failure to consider the costs for those in Buffalo, not just those in Canada who are more likely to pay more.

---


As far as Larry Quinn goes, considering he's part of the ownership group that owns the Arena, I would think he has a say in Ticket Prices (Golisano likely defers to Larry on hockey business matters).

Sure, they followed the model Canada uses. That's the problem. This isn't Canada.

They should have considered making packages that included only specific games, not all of them. Then they could choose to charge a lot more for the Canada package.

You make some good points.

I think we both agree this was a missed opportunity.

 

[copter]

You have to consider prices of tickets for the world junior games relative to the price of tickets for NHL games. The "packages" are in the ballpark, or more, than seasons for the Sabres or the Buffalo Bills (football) even. Individual games are quite a bit more expensive than NHL games here.

This simply is not true. My 300 level II seasons for the Sabres are $29/ticket. The same seats for the Juniors are about $24/ticket. Buffalo Bills are about $45/ticket (give or take a few bucks). Individual ticket pricing for the Sabres ranges from $31-$98 for those same seats. For the Juniors, it's less. As you move down to the lower level, the price discrepency is even greater (with Sabres being more than the Juniors).

So while the Juniors are priced just a bit less than the Sabres for the most part, they certainly aren't out of whack. I also think the Sabres have amongst the lowest ticket cost in the entire NHL.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Calgary-Edmonton certainly has the potential to beat that. 2 NHL arenas, 2 NHL cities, and Calgary has been a growing economic hub.

That is very true.

And Edmonton has a history of supporting teams and events like no other.

Calgary and Edmonton may be the only cities that could top Ottawa.

 

[vcv]

This simply is not true. My 300 level II seasons for the Sabres are $29/ticket. The same seats for the Juniors are about $24/ticket. Buffalo Bills are about $45/ticket (give or take a few bucks). Individual ticket pricing for the Sabres ranges from $31-$98 for those same seats. For the Juniors, it's less. As you move down to the lower level, the price discrepency is even greater (with Sabres being more than the Juniors).

So while the Juniors are priced just a bit less than the Sabres for the most part, they certainly aren't out of whack. I also think the Sabres have amongst the lowest ticket cost in the entire NHL.

Sorry, I wasn't fully clear.

The World Juniors "gold" (all the games) package is $1,240. The cheapest Sabres season ticket package is ~$900 and the cheapest Bills is ~$320.

They also have packages for only the HSBC games which are $833 and $498, more affordable.

But consider that this is a 2-week long tournament, not 8 or 41 games spread over many months. Most people are going to find it difficult to go to all the games and will also find it difficult to sell tickets to some of the games.

It's difficult for people in Buffalo to justify the cost relative to what they are used to in terms of package price for what they get. Buffalo is used to having the cheapest ticket prices in the league for hockey and football.

For folks here only interested in USA or Canada games, it's harder to justify the costs going either route. Packages are a lot when you only want a few games. Individual games are a lot because they cost more than what you are used to for NHL games.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

That is very true.

And Edmonton has a history of supporting teams and events like no other.

Calgary and Edmonton may be the only cities that could top Ottawa.

PS...

I hope they do. Nothing against Ottawa but it would be nice to see the bar set even higher.

 

[wjhl2009fan]

PS...

I hope they do. Nothing against Ottawa but it would be nice to see the bar set even higher.

I hope edmonton and calgary do well and pass ottawa.One thing to keep in mind is both pools were in ottawa so what they did attendance wise was very solid.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I hope edmonton and calgary do well and pass ottawa.One thing to keep in mind is both pools were in ottawa so what they did attendance wise was very solid.

No doubt Ottawa did a job second to none.