Winnipeg Jets – How do you transfer history?

[Iain Fyffe]

You can't transfer history. History is what happened. There's nothing that attaches a specific history to a specific franchise. A franchise is a concept more than anything, a legal fiction like a corporation. There's no reason to think the history belongs to a franchise any more than it belongs to the city which the franchise plays in.

 

[Killion]

You can't transfer history. History is what happened. There's nothing that attaches a specific history to a specific franchise. A franchise is a concept more than anything, a legal fiction like a corporation. There's no reason to think the history belongs to a franchise any more than it belongs to the city which the franchise plays in.

Interesting. I agree that you cant really "transfer history", its very difficult, and indeed there was a thread here (Maple Leaf Gardens) & subsequently a thesis written on the subject; Topophilia & MLG, Directing & Manufacturing History, MLSE's failures in that regard when the Leafs moved to the ACC. If we consider loss of place (a brick & mortar structure) a loss of history (the Forum in Mtl, the old Chicago Stadium etc, replaced with the cookie cutter buildings of today) then I would submit the same can be applied to the non-tangible in the form of a team. The history of a building is of equal importance to the history of the team. One is the body, the other the soul.

Much was lost in Chicago, Toronto, Montreal etc when the teams left behind the old homestead, however, the "history" lives on in the record books & in peoples memories & dreams. Winnipeg I believe should splice the broken thread from 1996 to 2011 in calling themselves the Jets and honoring its past. To me, Dreams & Memories, History, can be as real as you want it to be, the only thing holding us back being a lack of imagination and or a disregard for what went before. When almost everything in society is disposable, is it not comforting to know that even though the chain be broken (as it was in Winnipeg) and what was once lost can be found again?. These things you dismiss, from the Richard Riot in Montreal to Sittlers 10 point night in Toronto at the Gardens amongst a 1000 other tales are IMHO as real and as tangible a part of the franchises', the cities & the peoples history as the buildings they played in.

 

[EmbraceTheHate]

In this case the problem isn't "transfering history", that can't be done.

The problem is lineage. In Ottawa's case the former Sens had folded so TECHNICALLY the new Sens even though they were an expansion team could be classed as a re-activated original Sens franchise, they just acquired their players through an expansion draft due to the time between folding and re-activating.

In this case trying to lay claim to the former Jets lineage is wrong because the former Jets franchise is still active. This is the reason I disagree that the Thrash should be renamed Winnipeg Jets. Simply put they're a different franchise with it's own lineage and history.

Honour the Jets as part of Winnipeg's hockey past, but don't try and graft it onto our new team.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

These things you dismiss, from the Richard Riot in Montreal to Sittlers 10 point night in Toronto at the Gardens amongst a 1000 other tales are IMHO as real and as tangible a part of the franchises', the cities & the peoples history as the buildings they played in.

They're certainly not literally as tangible as buildings of course, and I'm not dismissing anything. But as you say, these memories are a part of the franchise and the city and the people. Only one of these three things leaves when a team relocates. There's nothing that says everything else can't stay behind with the city and the people.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

In this case trying to lay claim to the former Jets lineage is wrong because the former Jets franchise is still active. This is the reason I disagree that the Thrash should be renamed Winnipeg Jets. Simply put they're a different franchise with it's own lineage and history.

I see this as a mere technicality, and we shouldn't be restrained by technicalities when there are more important considerations.

What if the NHL transferred the ex-Atlanta franchise to Phoenix, granted Winnipeg Phoenix' franchise, and them to assume all of the old Atlanta etc while allowing the now-Phoenix franchise to do the same with its old contracts? This would technically make the new Winnipeg team a continuation of the old franchise in legal form. But it would make not one bit of difference to anyone, since the final result is the same.

Don't get caught up in the "legal form" of the relocation. That's really not important.

 

[Killion]

Honour the Jets as part of Winnipeg's hockey past, but don't try and graft it onto our new team.

Yes, I did consider the differences between an Expansion & a Relo in the equation. Perhaps I look at it a little differently. When a franchise leaves one market for another, they should leave behind all vestiges of the past. I dont differentiate between a Relo/Expansion. New is new. However, should a team return to a former market, then I feel they should (if they wish) have the right to solder the links to the past back together. Apparently Winnipeg does have this option according to media reports, and it'll be interesting to see what they do, how they handle it. I take it you would prefer a new name, clean sheet?.

 

[dafoomie]

In this case the problem isn't "transfering history", that can't be done.

The problem is lineage. In Ottawa's case the former Sens had folded so TECHNICALLY the new Sens even though they were an expansion team could be classed as a re-activated original Sens franchise, they just acquired their players through an expansion draft due to the time between folding and re-activating.

In this case trying to lay claim to the former Jets lineage is wrong because the former Jets franchise is still active. This is the reason I disagree that the Thrash should be renamed Winnipeg Jets. Simply put they're a different franchise with it's own lineage and history.

Honour the Jets as part of Winnipeg's hockey past, but don't try and graft it onto our new team.

But its been done numerous times in the past... Look at the Pittsburgh Steelers and Philadelphia Eagles. They essentially traded their names and territories while keeping their organizations and rosters, but no one today considers the pre 1941 years of the Steelers to belong to the Eagles or vice versa. Even the Baltimore Colts history is considered by many to not be a part of the current team's.

The Phoenix Coyotes aren't the Jets and I don't know anyone who considers anything that happened in Winnipeg to be part of their heritage. New city, new name, new identity, same with Carolina and Hartford.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Quick Q:

They still have the banners in Phoenix for the retired Jets players, don't they?


So, if this team calls themselves the Jets-do you just go and take those banners down "Sorry Phoenix"-and put them in Winnipeg-wouldn't that just be a little awkward?

Simplistic question, I know

 

[Rocko604]

In this case the problem isn't "transfering history", that can't be done.

The problem is lineage. In Ottawa's case the former Sens had folded so TECHNICALLY the new Sens even though they were an expansion team could be classed as a re-activated original Sens franchise, they just acquired their players through an expansion draft due to the time between folding and re-activating.

In this case trying to lay claim to the former Jets lineage is wrong because the former Jets franchise is still active. This is the reason I disagree that the Thrash should be renamed Winnipeg Jets. Simply put they're a different franchise with it's own lineage and history.

Honour the Jets as part of Winnipeg's hockey past, but don't try and graft it onto our new team.

Quick Q:

They still have the banners in Phoenix for the retired Jets players, don't they?


So, if this team calls themselves the Jets-do you just go and take those banners down "Sorry Phoenix"-and put them in Winnipeg-wouldn't that just be a little awkward?

Simplistic question, I know

I agree with these posts. Had the Phoenix started fresh and not taken Winnipeg's history with it, it would be easier. However, in this case of Atlanta moving to Winnipeg, the new Winnipeg team carries with it the history of the Thrashers. Yes, Hull, Hawerchuk and Steen played in Winnipeg, but did not play for this franchise.

IMO, I see no problem raising banners in honour of those three in terms of how important they are to hockey in the city, but to officially "retire" the numbers is wrong since the franchise they played for is still operating.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

Just call them the Jets.

Baseball is not irrevocably damaged by having two different franchises called the Senators, plus one called the Nats which was originally the nickname of the first Senators, plus three different franchises who were called the Baltimore Orioles, two Milwaukee Brewers, and two Chicago White Sox and Boston Red Sox.

 

[Killion]

They still have the banners in Phoenix for the retired Jets players, don't they? So, if this team calls themselves the Jets-do you just go and take those banners down "Sorry Phoenix"-and put them in Winnipeg-wouldn't that just be a little awkward?

Theres' a small showcase tucked away in the job (or there was a few years ago) with some Jets' paraphanalia on display but I dont re-call seeing any banners hanging from the rafters with Jets logo's on them. If there were/are, a nice ceremony handing them back to Winnipeg would be a classy move on the part of the Coyotes & the league. IMO, once a teams moved from City A to B, thats it. The books closed on City A & one shouldnt be packing up & moving the traditions or sentiments to a new market & building. Name changes as well IMO should be mandatory. Oxymorons like "Utah Jazz" & "Calgary Flames", "Memphis Grizzlies" & "Los Angeles Lakers" left behind to the locations where they actually meant something..... Ottawa got it right, and though the Jets' name isnt anywhere nearly as old as the Senators, they did win a couple of Avco Cups & were a seminal franchise in the WHA; home to some great players & decent teams in the NHL. Id really like to see them use that name in linking the past with the future.

 

[Shootmaster_44]

Officially, the new Winnipeg team regardless of name will inherit Atlanta's history. The Jets' history is part of the Coyotes franchise.

The only reason the Browns were able to keep the history in Cleveland, is that the NFL and city of Cleveland reached an agreement where the franchise would not be transferred to Baltimore, but the team would. What I mean is that the Ravens are technically an expansion team and the Browns simply went dark between 1996 and 1999.

Now you may see the new Winnipeg team do what the Washington Nationals have done and talk about Winnipeg hockey history. The Nationals' media guide always lists records as Washington, D.C. baseball history (both versions of the Washington Senators and the Washington Nationals) records for home runs and franchise (Montreal Expos/Washington Nationals) records for home runs.

As well, the new franchise could retire numbers for whomever they want. If they wanted to retire #33 for Patrick Roy, they could as it simply means they hang a banner and vow never to hand out that number again. My guess is you probably will see Thomas Steen and Dale Hawerchuk's numbers retired by the team, but that is irrespective of history.

Officially, I don't see the NHL rewriting history of the Jets, Coyotes, Thrashers and the new Winnipeg team. The Jets' history will be linked with that franchise and thus will keep with Phoenix (and whereever they may end up). As well, Atlanta's history will be kept with that franchise and end up in Winnipeg. The Thrashers did not pick up the history of the Flames time in Atlanta.

If history is to be honoured, if the new Winnipeg franchise calls themselves the Jets, won't they need a new logo? Seems to me at that final salute in 1996, the team retired the logo too. So if history is to be honoured, a new logo is mandatory.

This does bring up an interesting question somewhat related to this. What is the situation in Hartford? I know the City of Hartford owns the Whalers name and logo, do they also own the history of the Whalers or did Carolina take that with them?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

As far as I'm concerned, it's an irrelevant question.

The entire city of Winnipeg knows the history. They'll tell you in what bar they watched game 6 of the 1987 Smythe Semifinals when they won their only playoff series, they'll do their best Teemu Selanne shooting impression, and all six hundred thousand of them will claim to have been in Winnipeg Arena the night Dave Ellett scored in double overtime to push the Oilers to the brink of elimination in 1990.

It doesn't matter whether or not the NHL "allows" the new Winnipeg team to take on the history of its predecessor, and it doesn't matter whether or not TNSE chooses to embrace that history. The history of the Winnipeg Jets belongs to the city of Winnipeg, and everyone who went through the turnstiles at Winnipeg Arena or turned on their televisions at home, regardless of who owns retired numbers and statistics from prior seasons.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why does it belong to the city instead of the franchise. The city watches history unfold, the franchise is the one making the history itself. Had the Jets won a cup and then moved to Phoenix, why would the new Jets get to hang the cup banner instead of Phoenix, the franchise that actually won it? Your POV seems like the emotional one, not the logical one.

 

[DJ Man]

"Franchise" is some business term. A city is forever.

The current Washington baseball team should have been able to call themselves the Senators, if that's what the fans wanted, and if the Texas Rangers had a probem with that, some judge should have told them to go straight to ... let's just say "South Texas" ... without passing "Go."

Same for the "Indianapolis" "Colts." The sentance is 500 laps on a tricycle, and a restraining order to leave Baltimore alone.

 

[MoonlightGraham]

I think they should call them the Jets and retire the old Jets' retired numbers.

From my perspective as a die-hard Expos fans, I don't really want the Washington Nationals to honor the Expos' memory. They are not the Expos, they are a different team. Expos greats like Gary Carter and Andre Dawson never played with the Washington Nationals. The Expos' history belongs in Montreal, and they have their own history in Washington with the Nationals and the Senators before them. They can have plaques or something that remember the Expos and their players if they want (I think they might have that now, they did not when I went to a game in their stadium a couple of years ago), but they should not retire the Expos' retired numbers.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion though, maybe Thrashers fans don't feel the same way.

 

[ScottyK]

Dan Snyder's 37 better be retired.

 

[Hardyvan123]

No, I would say that Atlanta gets to keep that. They can trot it out if they ever field (or rather ice) another team.

After 2 cracks at it Atlanta is done.

You can't transfer history. History is what happened. There's nothing that attaches a specific history to a specific franchise. A franchise is a concept more than anything, a legal fiction like a corporation. There's no reason to think the history belongs to a franchise any more than it belongs to the city which the franchise plays in.

Fully agree here

Officially, the new Winnipeg team regardless of name will inherit Atlanta's history. The Jets' history is part of the Coyotes franchise.

The only reason the Browns were able to keep the history in Cleveland, is that the NFL and city of Cleveland reached an agreement where the franchise would not be transferred to Baltimore, but the team would. What I mean is that the Ravens are technically an expansion team and the Browns simply went dark between 1996 and 1999.

Now you may see the new Winnipeg team do what the Washington Nationals have done and talk about Winnipeg hockey history. The Nationals' media guide always lists records as Washington, D.C. baseball history (both versions of the Washington Senators and the Washington Nationals) records for home runs and franchise (Montreal Expos/Washington Nationals) records for home runs.

As well, the new franchise could retire numbers for whomever they want. If they wanted to retire #33 for Patrick Roy, they could as it simply means they hang a banner and vow never to hand out that number again. My guess is you probably will see Thomas Steen and Dale Hawerchuk's numbers retired by the team, but that is irrespective of history.

Officially, I don't see the NHL rewriting history of the Jets, Coyotes, Thrashers and the new Winnipeg team. The Jets' history will be linked with that franchise and thus will keep with Phoenix (and whereever they may end up). As well, Atlanta's history will be kept with that franchise and end up in Winnipeg. The Thrashers did not pick up the history of the Flames time in Atlanta.

If history is to be honoured, if the new Winnipeg franchise calls themselves the Jets, won't they need a new logo? Seems to me at that final salute in 1996, the team retired the logo too. So if history is to be honoured, a new logo is mandatory.

This does bring up an interesting question somewhat related to this. What is the situation in Hartford? I know the City of Hartford owns the Whalers name and logo, do they also own the history of the Whalers or did Carolina take that with them?

Great post here.

In my view the old Jets history and franchise went to Phoenix and the new team in Winnipeg will continue Atlanta's "history."

There is some talk on naming the team "Manitoba Moose" but this won't fly with the NHL.

I bet if you did a poll of Americans and asked where Manitoba was , near the north pole would be one of the most popular answers.

As hard as a Winnipeg name is to sell in the states, Manitoba would be even harder.

 

[SniperHF]

I don't see why we can't share it

I think a team can retire whatever number they want and put a name on the wall regardless of who owns the Jets name. One thing doesn't have to stop the other.

Nothing wrong with honoring players like Hull or Hawerchuk twice.

 

[Jets4Life]

As a born and raised Winnipegger, I think we should definitely keep the Jets name, and ask the Coyotes for their permission to honour the Jets previous history. Once the Jets left for Phoenix, nobody cared for them. I would suggest we leave Atlanta's history behind for them to use if the NHL ever returns there.

Same name, different logo. Lets retire Steen, Hull, Hawerchuk, and Selanne if he retires.

 

[mbhhofr]

There already is a Jets section in the Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame at the MTS Centre in Winnipeg.

http://www.mbhockeyhalloffame.ca/

 

[WingsFan95]

As a born and raised Winnipegger, I think we should definitely keep the Jets name, and ask the Coyotes for their permission to honour the Jets previous history. Once the Jets left for Phoenix, nobody cared for them. I would suggest we leave Atlanta's history behind for them to use if the NHL ever returns there.

Same name, different logo. Lets retire Steen, Hull, Hawerchuk, and Selanne if he retires.

Selanne played three and a half seasons for the Jets, can Jet fans tell me why you want his number retired so badly?

Anyway, I think the Yotes should transfer all Jets history. Phoenix doesn't care a lick about Jets history.

And yes, re-retire those numbers at the MTS.

 

[Stammer Time*]

Dan Snyder's 37 better be retired.

While I agree it should never be re-issued I wouldn't retire it if I were Winnipeg. It's not even retired in Atlanta.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The new Winnipeg franchise should celebrate the history of hockey in Winnipeg, which includes the original Winnipeg Jets. With regards to the Atlanta Thrashers they'd probably do best to forget that team ever existed.

 

[saskganesh]

Selanne played three and a half seasons for the Jets, can Jet fans tell me why you want his number retired so badly?

Rookie scoring/points record.

Anyhow, its not like there is a lot of demand to wear number 13.

 

[WPGFAN]

There would be no transfer of history, if....

Winnipeg Jets I franchise plays in Phoenix and Coyotes own the rights of Jets trademark and all the stuff.

It is the same as Minnesota Wild couldnt refer to North Stars b/c North Stars play in Dallas.

...but current owner of the Coyotes is NHL, so who knows what will happen...

I believe the NHL owns the rights to the Jets name.

I know this would never happen but it would be great if all the Jets history transferred to the new team and the Coyotes history would begin when they arrived in Arizona.