Wings vs. Leafs prospect pools

[Benttheknee]

Interesting that the one you pick, is also the most recent graduate that has performed to expectations. As a 5th rounder, he has done well, no doubt. But I do not see how he is any different that guys on other deep teams.

Detroit does not rush players because they have a deep team. That is what deep teams do. It isn't special to Detroit, other than the fact that Detroit has been deep for a friggin long time. I think that is my point. As soon as Detroit slides back into the pack, and misses the playoffs, you will see guys graduating more quickly.

 

[newfy]

Interesting that the one you pick, is also the most recent graduate that has performed to expectations. As a 5th rounder, he has done well, no doubt. But I do not see how he is any different that guys on other deep teams.

Detroit does not rush players because they have a deep team. That is what deep teams do. It isn't special to Detroit, other than the fact that Detroit has been deep for a friggin long time. I think that is my point. As soon as Detroit slides back into the pack, and misses the playoffs, you will see guys graduating more quickly.

Well another example is Brendan Smith. Holland said he couldve played in the NHL last season at 15 mins a night, but he didnt even see a call up. He was an AHL all star in his rookie year and was pretty dominant out there while being physically punishing player.

He wont even make Detroits roster this year and he is rated like the 22nd best prospect on HF. The wings went out and signed Mike Commodore instead of bringing this guy up.

That is just how Detroit does it. Other deep teams dont all do this. The sharks with Logan Couture playing already a good chunk of 2 NHL seasons at age 22, or Hodgson making the NHL now or the Bruinbs with Seguin.

Obviously these guys are good players, but I 100% doubt the wings would have played Seguin as a healthy scratch/low minutes all season long

 

[The Mauve Avenger]

When it comes to the Red Wings draft history, this really reminds me of a debate that went on regarding it:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/6/21/920352/detroit-isnt-that-great-at

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/6/23/913771/how-well-does-the-draft-translate

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/06/23/are-the-red-wings-terrible-at-drafting/

 

[Benttheknee]

Well another example is Brendan Smith. Holland said he couldve played in the NHL last season at 15 mins a night, but he didnt even see a call up. He was an AHL all star in his rookie year and was pretty dominant out there while being physically punishing player.

He wont even make Detroits roster this year and he is rated like the 22nd best prospect on HF. The wings went out and signed Mike Commodore instead of bringing this guy up.

That is just how Detroit does it. Other deep teams dont all do this. The sharks with Logan Couture playing already a good chunk of 2 NHL seasons at age 22, or Hodgson making the NHL now or the Bruinbs with Seguin.

Obviously these guys are good players, but I 100% doubt the wings would have played Seguin as a healthy scratch/low minutes all season long

I see the same thing, but this is a strategy of deep teams, not just Detroit. All of the guys that you mentioned as examples of deep teams not doing it were high draft picks. Those guys outgrow their level, and benefit by higher level of competition. Detroit never has high draft picks, so they don't have to deal with high end kids.

Holding Smith back by signing Commodore seems really strange to me (but definately fits the MO). If he is ready, play him. Detroit needs to have guys grow into a roster that is not as deep as it was in the past.

Maybe your right, maybe this is the best example of over-ripening, but IMO this is due to the nature of the team and their draft position.

 

[Benttheknee]

When it comes to the Red Wings draft history, this really reminds me of a debate that went on regarding it:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/6/21/920352/detroit-isnt-that-great-at

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/6/23/913771/how-well-does-the-draft-translate

http://www.aolnews.com/2009/06/23/are-the-red-wings-terrible-at-drafting/

Neat stuff, thanks!

 

[ponder]

Using the hfboards definitions of prospects:

Forwards:
Kadri, Colborne, Frattin, McKegg, Biggs

Dmen:
Gardiner, Blacker, Aulie, Percy

Goalies:
Reimer, Rynnas, Scrivens


I wouldn't trade our top 5 forward prospects for any 5 Detroit forward prospects.
I wouldn't trade our top 4 dmen prospects for any 4 Detroit dmen prospects.
I wouldn't trade our top 3 goalie prospects for any 3 Detroit goalie prospects.

I really don't see any reason to take Detroit's prospect's over Toronto's.

 

[newfy]

Using the hfboards definitions of prospects:

Forwards:
Kadri, Colborne, Frattin, McKegg, Biggs

Dmen:
Gardiner, Blacker, Aulie, Percy

Goalies:
Reimer, Rynnas, Scrivens


I wouldn't trade our top 5 forward prospects for any 5 Detroit forward prospects.
I wouldn't trade our top 4 dmen prospects for any 4 Detroit dmen prospects.
I wouldn't trade our top 3 goalie prospects for any 3 Detroit goalie prospects.

I really don't see any reason to take Detroit's prospect's over Toronto's.

Haha posts like this make me mad.

First of all on forward, you wouldnt take Tatar over at least Frattin or Mckegg? Youre so uneducated, so Ill give you alesson

Frattin was a nothing prospect until his senior year where he broke out a bit. A year where 90% of good prospects have signed NHL deals already and are honing their game in the AHL.

What has Biggs done to say hes a better prospect than the guy who just broke some of Selannes SM Liiga records? Or eve to say hes a better prospect than Sheahan?

Nyquist, who is Detroits second or third best forward prospect put up 61 points in 39 as a sophomore who was fresh coming over from Sweden and finished second in Hobey Baker voting. Frattin couldnt match that production in his 4th year of NCAA hockey, and Nyquist isnt even Detroits to forward prospect for gods sake.

None of those defenseman you listed are on Brendan Smiths level either. He is the 22nd ranked prospect in the world here on HF, and put up 10 more points than Gardiner did at the same age and same university in their final years there.

Gardiner doesnt really even compare to Smith and he is the number 1 D prospect in Toronto.

Ill give you the goalies, but Kadri is the only clear cut better forward prospect and Smith is definitely the best Dman prospect here.


and some people wonder why HF posters call leaf fans crazy and irrational

 

[Drew311]

Leafs fans: "Our prospect pool is better"

Wings fans: "Our prospect pool is better"

Other fans: "We don't know much about your prospect pools"

 

[Probie]

Keep up the schooling err I mean education newfy well done

 

[The Mauve Avenger]

None of those defenseman you listed are on Brendan Smiths level either. He is the 22nd ranked prospect in the world here on HF, and put up 10 more points than Gardiner did at the same age and same university in their final years there.

I wouldn't trade our top 4 dmen prospects for any 4 Detroit dmen prospects.

Going by HF's ranking of Detroit's defencemen:

1. Brendan Smith (8.0 C)
2. Xavier Ouellet (7.0 C)
3. Benjamin Marshall (7.0 C)
4. Adam Almqvist (7.0 D)

Vs. Toronto's defencemen:

1. Jake Gardiner (7.5 C)
2. Keith Aulie (7.0 B)
3. Jesse Blacker (7.5 C)
4. Stuart Percy (7.0 C)

Out of all of Detroit's top 4 defencemen, the only one I would take over any of the Leafs' 4 is Smith. Though, Almqvist certainly intrigues me with his potential (I think he should be a 7.5 D, but I don't come up with the rankings), and so I think he and Percy are close.

 

[The Chiddler]

Haha posts like this make me mad.

First of all on forward, you wouldnt take Tatar over at least Frattin or Mckegg? Youre so uneducated, so Ill give you alesson

Frattin was a nothing prospect until his senior year where he broke out a bit. A year where 90% of good prospects have signed NHL deals already and are honing their game in the AHL.

What has Biggs done to say hes a better prospect than the guy who just broke some of Selannes SM Liiga records? Or eve to say hes a better prospect than Sheahan?

Nyquist, who is Detroits second or third best forward prospect put up 61 points in 39 as a sophomore who was fresh coming over from Sweden and finished second in Hobey Baker voting. Frattin couldnt match that production in his 4th year of NCAA hockey, and Nyquist isnt even Detroits to forward prospect for gods sake.

None of those defenseman you listed are on Brendan Smiths level either. He is the 22nd ranked prospect in the world here on HF, and put up 10 more points than Gardiner did at the same age and same university in their final years there.

Gardiner doesnt really even compare to Smith and he is the number 1 D prospect in Toronto.

Ill give you the goalies, but Kadri is the only clear cut better forward prospect and Smith is definitely the best Dman prospect here.


and some people wonder why HF posters call leaf fans crazy and irrational

I think you misread his post, he said:

I wouldn't trade our top 5 forward prospects for any 5 Detroit forward prospects.
I wouldn't trade our top 4 dmen prospects for any 4 Detroit dmen prospects.
I wouldn't trade our top 3 goalie prospects for any 3 Detroit goalie prospects.

I don't think anything he said was unreasonable.

Tomas Tatar, C
Gustav Nyquist, C
Teemu Pulkkinen, LW
Tomas Jurco, RW
Riley Sheahan, C

vs

Nazem Kadri, C
Joe Colborne, C
Matt Frattin, RW
Greg McKegg, LW
Tyler Biggs, RW

Which would you take?

 

[Leafidelity]

Keep up the schooling err I mean education newfy well done

If that's what you want to call his posts.

 

[newfy]

I think you misread his post, he said:


I don't think anything he said was unreasonable.

Tomas Tatar, C
Gustav Nyquist, C
Teemu Pulkkinen, LW
Tomas Jurco, RW
Riley Sheahan, C

vs

Nazem Kadri, C
Joe Colborne, C
Matt Frattin, RW
Greg McKegg, LW
Tyler Biggs, RW

Which would you take?

I thoguht he said any of detroits top 5 forward prospects, as in he wouldnt trade anyone of their top 5 for anyone of Detriots top 5.

But either way, I look at this as

Kadri vs Tatar... edge Kadri

Colborne vs Jarnkrok... pretty even to me. Both have intriguing potential.

Nyquist vs Frattin is Nyquist pretty easily

Mckegg vs Pulkinen... they both tore up their respective leagues this season. Pretty even

Sheahan vs Biggs.. complete wash to me. Powerforwards with questionable offensive ceiling. Both pretty well locks to make the NHL but at what level of contribution?

I dont know how you phrase that question like there is an obvious answer. Even if you go past 5, to the Caputis, Rosses, Mursaks and Callahans. They have very close prospect pools and there is no obvious choice, I dont knwo why you phrased that question like there was an obvious answer

 

[Probie]

I think you misread his post, he said:


I don't think anything he said was unreasonable.

Tomas Tatar, C
Gustav Nyquist, C
Teemu Pulkkinen, LW
Tomas Jurco, RW
Riley Sheahan, C

vs

Nazem Kadri, C
Joe Colborne, C
Matt Frattin, RW
Greg McKegg, LW
Tyler Biggs, RW

Which would you take?

Depends which way you look at it in terms of the forwards, on high end talent i would favor detroits list of 5 forwards over the leafs ( i would switch Jarnkrok in for either Sheehan or Jurko though). On the other hand torontos five has a better chance of making it to the nhl as a whole, but with a lower ceiling.

Like Newfy said though smith it better then any of your DMan, but as a whole your top five are better.

 

[Probie]

Going by HF's ranking of Detroit's defencemen:

1. Brendan Smith (8.0 C)
2. Xavier Ouellet (7.0 C)
3. Benjamin Marshall (7.0 C)
4. Adam Almqvist (7.0 D)

Vs. Toronto's defencemen:

1. Jake Gardiner (7.5 C)
2. Keith Aulie (7.0 B)
3. Jesse Blacker (7.5 C)
4. Stuart Percy (7.0 C)

Out of all of Detroit's top 4 defencemen, the only one I would take over any of the Leafs' 4 is Smith. Though, Almqvist certainly intrigues me with his potential (I think he should be a 7.5 D, but I don't come up with the rankings), and so I think he and Percy are close.

Yeah although the average of the letter grades favor the leafs ie the chance they will be successful, the average of the numbers is the same(29/4).

 

[Probie]

Originally Posted by Probie:

Keep up the schooling err I mean education newfy well done

Originally Posted by Leafidelity:

If that's what you want to call his posts.

Funny guy, you are. he said he was going to educate, he did more than that imo, so i call that schooling as a joke. he did list some good facts and points.

What he said regarding individual player comparisons was accurate. As I said above I would take detroits top 5 forwards over torontos, by a slight margin. On potential skill, Detroit beats them, although torontos has a slightly better chance of making it. Some people don't realize Pulkkinen and Jarnkrok have serious top end skill.


Anyways i have had fun in the thread and learned a few things too. All in good fun guys.

 

[Filppula]

Wait until people see Mursak. 6th round pick, 182nd overall, been biding his time in the AHL. Think Helm, but with more offensive potential. Won't see much of him to start, but in a few years people will be wondering where this guy came from, and then hopefully it'll make people realise that we've got solid prospects in our system that are rarely spoken of.

 

[The Chiddler]

Depends which way you look at it in terms of the forwards, on high end talent i would favor detroits list of 5 forwards over the leafs ( i would switch Jarnkrok in for either Sheehan or Jurko though). On the other hand torontos five has a better chance of making it to the nhl as a whole, but with a lower ceiling.

Like Newfy said though smith it better then any of your DMan, but as a whole your top five are better.

Players like Colborne and Kadri have pretty high ceilings, I'm not sure I'd say Detroit's players have a higher ceiling then these 2.

 

[ponder]

Haha posts like this make me mad.

First of all on forward, you wouldnt take Tatar over at least Frattin or Mckegg? Youre so uneducated, so Ill give you alesson

Frattin was a nothing prospect until his senior year where he broke out a bit. A year where 90% of good prospects have signed NHL deals already and are honing their game in the AHL.

What has Biggs done to say hes a better prospect than the guy who just broke some of Selannes SM Liiga records? Or eve to say hes a better prospect than Sheahan?

Nyquist, who is Detroits second or third best forward prospect put up 61 points in 39 as a sophomore who was fresh coming over from Sweden and finished second in Hobey Baker voting. Frattin couldnt match that production in his 4th year of NCAA hockey, and Nyquist isnt even Detroits to forward prospect for gods sake.

None of those defenseman you listed are on Brendan Smiths level either. He is the 22nd ranked prospect in the world here on HF, and put up 10 more points than Gardiner did at the same age and same university in their final years there.

Gardiner doesnt really even compare to Smith and he is the number 1 D prospect in Toronto.

Ill give you the goalies, but Kadri is the only clear cut better forward prospect and Smith is definitely the best Dman prospect here.


and some people wonder why HF posters call leaf fans crazy and irrational

I figured I was being plenty clear there, but I guess you just enjoying springing into Leafs bashing mode without reading posts. As the poster below pointed out, I was saying that I would trade the entire group of top 5 Leafs forward prospects for the entire group of top 5 Wings forward prospects, or the entire group of top 4 Leafs dmen prospects for the entire group of top 4 Wings dmen prospects, or the entire group of top 3 Leafs goalie prospects for the entire group of top 3 Wings goalie prospects.

As for some of the above comparisons, I'd take Smith over any 1 Leafs dman prospect, but he's not WAY ahead of Gardiner, and overall I like the Leafs group better, because I like Blacker/Aulie/Percy WAY more than Ouellet/Marshall/whoever.

Kadri vs Tatar, I'd take Kadri by quite a solid margin. Colborne/Frattin/McKegg/Biggs vs Nyquist/Pulkkinen/Jurco/Sheahan is a wash to edge-Leafs IMO.

Leafs goalie prospects (Reimer/Rynnas/Scrivens) absolutely destory Detroit goalie prospects, it's really not even close at all.

The way I see it, the Leafs have a slightly stronger group of forward prospects, a slightly stronger group of dmen prospects, and a WAY stronger group of goalie prospects, so I feel the Leafs prospect pool is fairly easily superior to the Wings. Obviously the Wings have a WAYYYYYYY better NHL team, but in terms of just prospects, it's a reasonably clear win for the Leafs IMO.

 

[newfy]

I figured I was being plenty clear there, but I guess you just enjoying springing into Leafs bashing mode without reading posts. As the poster below pointed out, I was saying that I would trade the entire group of top 5 Leafs forward prospects for the entire group of top 5 Wings forward prospects, or the entire group of top 4 Leafs dmen prospects for the entire group of top 4 Wings dmen prospects, or the entire group of top 3 Leafs goalie prospects for the entire group of top 3 Wings goalie prospects.

As for some of the above comparisons, I'd take Smith over any 1 Leafs dman prospect, but he's not WAY ahead of Gardiner, and overall I like the Leafs group better, because I like Blacker/Aulie/Percy WAY more than Ouellet/Marshall/whoever.

Kadri vs Tatar, I'd take Kadri by quite a solid margin. Colborne/Frattin/McKegg/Biggs vs Nyquist/Pulkkinen/Jurco/Sheahan is a wash to edge-Leafs IMO.

Leafs goalie prospects (Reimer/Rynnas/Scrivens) absolutely destory Detroit goalie prospects, it's really not even close at all.

The way I see it, the Leafs have a slightly stronger group of forward prospects, a slightly stronger group of dmen prospects, and a WAY stronger group of goalie prospects, so I feel the Leafs prospect pool is fairly easily superior to the Wings. Obviously the Wings have a WAYYYYYYY better NHL team, but in terms of just prospects, it's a reasonably clear win for the Leafs IMO.

You just dont know much about the wings prospects, seriously.

You dont even list Jarnkrok, who some people rank ahead of Tatar as the wings best forward prospect in their top 5.

I dunno I feel like I'm fairly in tune with the leafs, I live in the heart of leafs nation and live with 4 leafs fans. I watch TSN and sportsnet Ontario. Leafs prospects get more hyped up around here by far obviously and Toronto fans hardly ever see whats outside of their area, which is clear by you not even mentioned Jarnkrok

 

[Superpest]

Jarnkrok + Pulkkinen = future Euro twins
Nyquist = potential #2 center
Tatar = top 6 winger
Mursak = top 6 winger with a vastly underrated shot and he has helm-like speed
Sheahan = Shutdown, big defensive forward
Callahan = Dmac 2.0
Smith = top pairing offensive dman with some snarl
Almqvist = potential to be a great top 4 dman but needs a little bulking up
Oulett = possible top 4
Sproul = unknown ceiling, but looks to be giving Almqvst and Oulett a run for their money
Larsson = better than Howard
Mrazek = elite OHL goalie that will be in the A next year

Ouellet.

not that hard...

 

[Leadzedder]

Good debate.

Newfy.... I think they don't mention JArnkrok for the same reason they mention Marshall. They're just going off HF rankings which has Jarnkrok as our 6th top forward prospect, after Sheahan. Which is certainly debatable.

I think the hf writer who ranked our prospects is either a relative of Marshall's or he knows somethign the rest of us don't. We ranked him 24th on our board poll.

Stolen from another of our board threads (prospect team)..........

Jurco - Jarnkrok - Tatar
Nyquist - Sheahan - Pulkkinen
Axelsson - Aubry - Mursak
Tvrdon - Andersson - Callahan

Smith - Sproul
Ouellet - Almquist
Lashoff - Marchenko

Marzek
McCollum


I won't argue top end talent cause I don't know but I'd guess when all is said and done this team runs a train on yours.

 

[Pucklington]

Non toronto fan.

I would take Kadri over Tatar. Smith slightly over Gardiner, and Reimer over the wings guys.

Overall, Toronto has a better group because they have depth in every position. None of these guys are going to be elite NHLer's likely, but they will be good.