Wings vs. Leafs prospect pools

[LolungoReboundo]

Nilsson is purely defensive, he has absolutely horrible offensive upside. Nilsson was ranked as the most hated prospect in our prospect training camp because he delivers nasty hits, ULF samuelsson type apparently.

I thought that was Petter Granberg?

 

[Probie]

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Every team swings for the fences some of the time and drafts safe players some of the time. Including Detroit.

The part about Detroit having superior European scouting may have been corrrect 10 years ago, but it isn't anymore.

From 2000-2006*, Detroit has had 45 draft picks after and including the 4th round. Three of those players played in the NHL last season: Ericsson, Quincey, Helm.

In that same time period, Toronto has had 37 draft picks after and including the 4th round. 6 of those players played in the NHl last season: Wellwood, White, John Mitchell, Stralman, Reimer, Stalberg (and Gunnarsson from 2007).



*2006 gives plenty of time for the players to make the NHL. Those players are 23/24 now.



You can't use unproven players as evidence of Detroit superiority in late rounds. You are assuming that they will turn out because you think Detroit is superior in the late rounds. A bit circular, don't you think?



I don't know where to start.

1) Why in the world would you choose 1989 as a date to start looking?..... Oh, that's when Lidstrom and Federov were drafted. Why not just make it an even 20 years. Here is a list of the significant players that Detroit has drafted since 1991:

Lapointe, Osgood, Knuble, McCarty, McGillis, Holmstrom, Dandenault, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kopecky, Kronwall, Hudler, Fleischmann, Filppula, Ericsson, Howard, Quincey, Franzen, Helm

Now here's a list from the Leafs:

Mironov, Perreault, Marshall, Jonsson, Modin, Berezin, Markov, Kaberle, Mair, Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Boyes, Colaiacovo, Wellwood, Steen, Stajan, White, Stralman, Rask, Kulemin, Reimer, Gunnarsson, Schenn

As you can see, the difference comes down to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. It is those two miraculous late round picks that have kept Detroit competitive after Yzerman and company left. Without that stroke of luck, Detroits drafting in the last 20 years would not have been very good at all.

The bad news for Detroit is that Europe is now heavily scouted. That's why Detroit hasn't drafted anyone who's likely to replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Players like that can't be found in the late rounds anymore.

2) Franzen is a star player but Kaberle is borderline? What the hell is wrong with you?

Franzen's (31 y/o) career stats: 395 GP, 219 Pts (0.55 PPG)
Including playoffs: 478 GP, 291 Pts (0.61 PPG)

Kaberle's (33 y/o) career stats: 902 GP, 529 Pts (0.59 PPG)
Including playoffs: 1004 GP, 568 Pts (0.57 PPG)

Ridiculous



Yes, but Detroit hasn't done been spectacular in the late rounds of the draft since 2000. Which team has more 1st round picks is irrelevant to this discussion.




You could do this for every single team in the league. It is meaningless.



Why did you choose 7 as a cut-off? Oh, because we drafted 5 of our top 10. But wait, that list doesn't include our prospects from 2011.

Here's a better list:
1. Nazem Kadri
2. James Reimer
3. Joe Colborne
4. Keith Aulie
5. Jake Gardiner
6. Jesse Blacker
7. Greg McKegg
8. Stuart Percy
9. Tyler Biggs
10. Matt Frattin

There we go, 7 of the top 10 drafted by the Leafs.

That doesn't include Schenn, Gunnarsson, Kulemin, Stalberg, Rask or Stralman all drafted in 2005 or after and playing in the NHL.

Helm, Abdelkader, Matthias and Kindl have been drafted by Detroit in that time. Pretty impressive, eh?

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The part about Detroit having superior European scouting may have been corrrect 10 years ago, but it isn't anymore.

This is the part about us being smarter then the rest when it comes running our organization, we recognized something that would improve our organization and found many gems in Europe while the rest of the league were too stunned to catch on at first. We focussed on Europe cause others were too stupid to do it themselves.
Yes the gap has closed only because it was superior during that time period, and everyone took notice and decided after our success that it was a good idea to focus more on Europe. I guess the rest have to copy the best. Too bad your team didn’t have the ability to do the same, or maybe you would have won a few cups as a result like we did rather then sucking.

From 2000-2006*, Detroit has had 45 draft picks after and including the 4th round. Three of those players played in the NHL last season: Ericsson, Quincey, Helm.

You already got corrected on that I see. Picking time periods that suit you, that’s ok. Yeah, but next year we have another one of those players making the roster, and he should be good. We like our guys over ripe, but it means they take longer to enter the league. Wait two more years for all those guys who are going to make it, make it. I think Axellson will make the transition (good chance) in 2012-2013. Former NHLers on his Swedish team are taking the steps so he is prepared to make it. He was a finalist for MVP last season in the SEL. Just is immature, but has the skills.

In that same time period, Toronto has had 37 draft picks after and including the 4th round. 6 of those players played in the NHl last season: Wellwood, White, John Mitchell, Stralman, Reimer, Stalberg (and Gunnarsson from 2007).

All 1st pairing d, first line forwards, and star goaltending prospects. Detroit should hang its head in shame. See above for more of our guys to make it during this time period, over ripe means wait longer for players to emerge. We don’t rush and ruin players like some teams.

*2006 gives plenty of time for the players to make the NHL. Those players are 23/24 now.

We don’t rush our guys, wait another two years. Overripe player development its called. Here are our prospects from 2006 draft: Cory Emmerton, Shawn Matthias, Dick Axelsson, Daniel Larsson, Jan Mursak. Mattias is elsewhere and playing. Mursac will be solid and has already played and has a full time spot on our roster next year. Emmerton has already played and will be on our roster our someone elses next year, he is nhl ready. Axellson is obviously NHL talented enough he just has to get his head out of his ass and come over next year, see above explanation. Larson is good enough to play in the nhl right now maybe as a backup, maybe better, he has to be willing to come over to the nhl. He has to cross the pond, and if he had waited longer in the minors he would be playing 2 years ago in the nhl. He outplayed Howard in the ahl. Again wait some time. Thank you

You can't use unproven players as evidence of Detroit superiority in late rounds. You are assuming that they will turn out because you think Detroit is superior in the late rounds. A bit circular, don't you think?

That’s not my assumption and thinking. What I’m getting at we have top prospects in the last few years that have lots of potential that aren’t playing in the OHL anymore but have moved up in terms of league development, are still performing well and still display a significant level of talent. and even if half of them make it(pretty fair assumption) were sitting pretty. These guys aren’t looking good in the ohl, they have moved up, and there skill is still on full display and their not being held back due to deficiencies in higher leagues then junior. I said half of these players make it, which is a fair assessment after actually after really following these prospects


I orginally wrote:

Look at the team success compared to one another the last 20 years, it has a lot to do with the players drafted.

Lets look from 1989 and onwards shall we in terms of elite players or star players.
Detroit: Lidstrom federov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall (borderline star player).
Toronto: Potvin, Kaberle (like Kronwall, borderline star player).

Your response:

I don't know where to start.

1) Why in the world would you choose 1989 as a date to start looking?..... Oh, that's when Lidstrom and Federov were drafted. Why not just make it an even 20 years.

Dude does it not count as part of our drat history? Its included because both of those guys are still playing, one a current NORRIS winner (something your team doesn’t have) on our team, and the other playing overseas. Ok, not happy with a 20 year span, lets look at a thirty year span:
Lets look at 1979-1988

Detroit:
Murphy, graves yzerman, probert, foligno, ogrodnick, gallant, craven, klima,

Leafs:
Leeman, Clarke, damphouse, courtnall, iafrate.

I see your team did a little better during this period, a lot better then 1989-2010. We still did better.





Lets do a combined 30 year draft history between the two team of significant players:

Detroit last Thirty Years:
Lidstrom federov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall, Murphy, graves yzerman, probert, foligno, ogrodnick, gallant, craven, klima. (Can argue about removing probert)


Toronto Last Thirty Years:
Leeman, Clarke, damphouse, courtnall, iafrate, Potvin, Kaberle. Rask.

I’m wondering if you see a small difference? Stevie wonder can, and so should you.

You keep removing Dats and Z and saying its luck and then re-comparing. What nobody can argue with is looking at TOTAL draft history for 20 years, even an idiot cannot argue(try it) that luck is going to cancel itself out between the two teams. After the last twenty years of draft comparison the Red Wings are better easily, albeit with a consistently lower draft selection spot. Not satisfied, lets look at the last thirty years combined, yes your team did have some decent picks during that ten year time period of 79-89, but its still obvious Detroit was better overall for the 30 year period. You homers cant keep talking luck, when you we have out produced you at the draft table for over thirty years. It’s cause we are better. Deal with it.

As you can see, the difference comes down to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. It is those two miraculous late round picks that have kept Detroit competitive after Yzerman and company left. Without that stroke of luck, Detroits drafting in the last 20 years would not have been very good at all.

See explanation above for the thirty year comparison regarding your “luck” comment/theory. You out scout someone for thirty years and it has nothing to do with luck.

The bad news for Detroit is that Europe is now heavily scouted. That's why Detroit hasn't drafted anyone who's likely to replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Players like that can't be found in the late rounds anymore.

You fu**ed up. Think about your implication here and in the rest of your posts. You admit Detroit has great drafting success in Europe for a ten year period because no one else looked so hard, FACT. You admit Detroit FOUND keeper prospects in those later rounds because of their Great Drafting in Europe at that time in the later rounds. FACT. Then in another breath in the thread you call these finds pure luck. Cant have it both ways buddy.

2) Franzen is a star player but Kaberle is borderline? What the hell is wrong with you?

If you really want to know whats wrong with me, I have had a bad back the last few days. Thanks for caring. Yes Franzen could have been included with Kronwall as a borderline star player, I typed a little too quickly and put a comma after franzen, if that wasn’t there my comment would have included Franz and Kronwall. No big deal. I still think Franzen at his peak now, is more valuable then kaberle at his best. Whatever the point was made, we have selected better players during that time period I mentioned.

Yes, but Detroit hasn't done been spectacular in the late rounds of the draft since 2000. Which team has more 1st round picks is irrelevant to this discussion.
You could do this for every single team in the league. It is meaningless.

Both our teams have traded away the same amount of picks during the same ten year period, which needs to be looked at when comparing our drafting. Right?

Why did you choose 7 as a cut-off? Oh, because we drafted 5 of our top 10. But wait, that list doesn't include our prospects from 2011.

Here's a better list:
1. Nazem Kadri
2. James Reimer
3. Joe Colborne
4. Keith Aulie
5. Jake Gardiner
6. Jesse Blacker
7. Greg McKegg
8. Stuart Percy
9. Tyler Biggs
10. Matt Frattin


There we go, 7 of the top 10 drafted by the Leafs.

Why did you choose 7 as a cut-off?

Why do you think? It shows that most of your most important top prospects weren’t even drafted by your team. Makes sense right? Pretty important when you are COMPAIRING DRAFTING YOUR PROSPECTS, not TRADING FOR YOUR PROSPECTS.

Here's a better list:

Why is it a better list, according to whom? Mine was straight off HFBoards. Lets look at that list again:


1 Nazem Kadri, C
2 Joe Colborne, C
3 Jake Gardiner, D
4 James Reimer, G
5 Keith Aulie, D
6 Jussi Rynnas, G
7 Luca Caputi, LW
8 Jesse Blacker, D
9 Greg McKegg, LW
10 Brad Ross, LW


I’m not saying Detroits total prospects are better then Toronto’s, since I think NOW you have a slightly better pool. This is not due to drafting, but due to liquidating current roster players for picks and prospects. I’m saying our drafting is better, look at it the last 30 years like I talked about above. Ok, five of your top seven prospects are not even drafted by yourself. Now your team is in a rebuild, and have liquidated a bunch of its better players for prospects and picks. Lets look:

-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Tomas Kaberle to the Boston Bruins for Joe Colborne, a first-round draft pick in 2011( and a conditional draft pick in 2012.
-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Alexei Ponikarovsky to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Luca Caputi and Martin Skoula.
-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Nik Antropov to the NY Rangers for a 2nd round selection in 2009 and a conditional draft selection.

Guys like Ross wasn’t even drafted from your natural selection of picks, you guys liquidated roster players to get these extra picks. Blacker the same. Its called rebuilding. Off that top ten list you guys drafted a total of 3 of your top ten picks via your natural picks. Look at Detroit s list of top ten prospects:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings or:
http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/

Not one of those top ten prospects were obtained via trades like Toronto has. Also not one of Detroit roster players was traded in a rebuild to obtain extra picks like your team has done. All ten players shown come from original, non roster player obtained, picks.

You have three of your top ten prospects obtained via natural occurring draft picks. Detroit has 10 out of 10. Big Difference.

So the Leafs liquidated in a rebuild 3 of its more significant players to obtain picks and prospects out of its top ten prospects. What if Detroit liquidated kronwall, franzen, and say cleary, for prospects? Do you think detroits prospect pool would suddenly look better then it is and be better then torontos? You could easily get 2 1sts (higher then 15) and 2 seconds out of those roster players I mentioned and our prospect pool would smash Toronto’s. But that’s the part about drafting strongly, you have great players, you win cups and don’t have to rebuild like the leafs do and liquidate players to improve your prospect pool. Its called being better. Lets compare prospect pools from natural picks, not trades or picks obtained from liquidating *****. You have three vs ten? Who has the stronger pool man out of drafting natural picks? Who has the stronger drafting? We pick later then you guys, too, always. Point made about better drafting then Toronto. Don’t bother to argue. Puuuuulllllleeeeeaaaaasssseeee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Probie
Tverdon, ...

Teemu Pulkkinen: ..

You can't use unproven players as evidence of Detroit superiority in late rounds.

NO, that’s not what I mean. I mentioned Pulkkinen and Tverdon as examples of how Detroit is smart and finds ways methods in being better at drafting. I’m talking about the method of picking guys who slip too far because of freak injuries and grabbing them. I never said they are going to make it for sure that’s not my point, I’m saying they have adapted and have employed a smart strategy of selecting first round talent on forth round picks. It’s a new strategy, just like we have employed before to be near the top of drafting lanscape. Other teams will catch on and start doing the same soon enough. We set trends, cause we are smarter.



MOD

 

[embracedbias]

Ugh..

 

[Leafidelity]

Last 30 years your argument? Really? Why don't we take this ridiculousness even further and go 100 years. Both make about as much sense to the topic at hand.

F.Y.I. Not every blue jersey is a Leafs jersey. The irony is he's presumably a Flyers fan.

 

[DetBigWangs]

itt detroit fans comparing their team with leafs pre-burke era

majority of our prospects are new since burke came in. comparing what happened before then just shows you don't have a clue about toronto

but i guess being a detroit fan gives you leeway to act stupid. and the "last 30 years" is just icing on the cake. grab harder on those straws, lol.

Works both ways. You could arbitrarily choose a time period that is favored against the Wings too. Let a neutral party with a good explanation select the best criteria to compare prospects.

 

[Newfie John]

Kadri and Reimer are better than any Wings prospect, clear cut.

Colborne and Gardiner are right in the same area as Smith.

So, at the top you have the Leafs clearly winning.

That's not even taking into account other really solid prospects in Keith Aulie (top 2 potential), Luca Caputi (2nd/3rd line potential), Tyler Biggs (top six potential), Stuart Percy (top 4 potential), Brad Ross, Jesse Blacker, and Jerry D'Amigo. That's 7 other guys with a decent shot at being an impact player, beyond the top 4. So a total of 11 real solid prospects.

Detroit?

They have bang or bust guys like Nestrasil and Nyquist, or potential grinders like Callahan in the same rank spots.

Leafs have the better top end talent, and the better depth.

This isn't even close. But, it's not a fair comparison either. Toronto should have a better prospect depth than Detroit, given that Detroit has been contending for ages.

 

[Newfie John]

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This is the part about us being smarter then the rest when it comes running our organization, we recognized something that would improve our organization and found many gems in Europe while the rest of the league were too stunned to catch on at first. We focussed on Europe cause others were too stupid to do it themselves.
Yes the gap has closed only because it was superior during that time period, and everyone took notice and decided after our success that it was a good idea to focus more on Europe. I guess the rest have to copy the best. Too bad your team didn’t have the ability to do the same, or maybe you would have won a few cups as a result like we did rather then sucking.




You already got corrected on that I see. Picking time periods that suit you, that’s ok. Yeah, but next year we have another one of those players making the roster, and he should be good. We like our guys over ripe, but it means they take longer to enter the league. Wait two more years for all those guys who are going to make it, make it. I think Axellson will make the transition (good chance) in 2012-2013. Former NHLers on his Swedish team are taking the steps so he is prepared to make it. He was a finalist for MVP last season in the SEL. Just is immature, but has the skills.

All 1st pairing d, first line forwards, and star goaltending prospects. Detroit should hang its head in shame. See above for more of our guys to make it during this time period, over ripe means wait longer for players to emerge. We don’t rush and ruin players like some teams.



We don’t rush our guys, wait another two years. Overripe player development its called. Here are our prospects from 2006 draft: Cory Emmerton, Shawn Matthias, Dick Axelsson, Daniel Larsson, Jan Mursak. Mattias is elsewhere and playing. Mursac will be solid and has already played and has a full time spot on our roster next year. Emmerton has already played and will be on our roster our someone elses next year, he is nhl ready. Axellson is obviously NHL talented enough he just has to get his head out of his ass and come over next year, see above explanation. Larson is good enough to play in the nhl right now maybe as a backup, maybe better, he has to be willing to come over to the nhl. He has to cross the pond, and if he had waited longer in the minors he would be playing 2 years ago in the nhl. He outplayed Howard in the ahl. Again wait some time. Thank you


That’s not my assumption and thinking. What I’m getting at we have top prospects in the last few years that have lots of potential that aren’t playing in the OHL anymore but have moved up in terms of league development, are still performing well and still display a significant level of talent. and even if half of them make it(pretty fair assumption) were sitting pretty. These guys aren’t looking good in the ohl, they have moved up, and there skill is still on full display and their not being held back due to deficiencies in higher leagues then junior. I said half of these players make it, which is a fair assessment after actually after really following these prospects


I orginally wrote:

Your response:

Dude does it not count as part of our drat history? Its included because both of those guys are still playing, one a current NORRIS winner (something your team doesn’t have) on our team, and the other playing overseas. Ok, not happy with a 20 year span, lets look at a thirty year span:
Lets look at 1979-1988

Detroit:
Murphy, graves yzerman, probert, foligno, ogrodnick, gallant, craven, klima,

Leafs:
Leeman, Clarke, damphouse, courtnall, iafrate.

I see your team did a little better during this period, a lot better then 1989-2010. We still did better.





Lets do a combined 30 year draft history between the two team of significant players:

Detroit last Thirty Years:
Lidstrom federov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall, Murphy, graves yzerman, probert, foligno, ogrodnick, gallant, craven, klima. (Can argue about removing probert)


Toronto Last Thirty Years:
Leeman, Clarke, damphouse, courtnall, iafrate, Potvin, Kaberle. Rask.

I’m wondering if you see a small difference? Stevie wonder can, and so should you.

You keep removing Dats and Z and saying its luck and then re-comparing. What nobody can argue with is looking at TOTAL draft history for 20 years, even an idiot cannot argue(try it) that luck is going to cancel itself out between the two teams. After the last twenty years of draft comparison the Red Wings are better easily, albeit with a consistently lower draft selection spot. Not satisfied, lets look at the last thirty years combined, yes your team did have some decent picks during that ten year time period of 79-89, but its still obvious Detroit was better overall for the 30 year period. You homers cant keep talking luck, when you we have out produced you at the draft table for over thirty years. It’s cause we are better. Deal with it.



See explanation above for the thirty year comparison regarding your “luck†comment/theory. You out scout someone for thirty years and it has nothing to do with luck.

You fu**ed up. Think about your implication here and in the rest of your posts. You admit Detroit has great drafting success in Europe for a ten year period because no one else looked so hard, FACT. You admit Detroit FOUND keeper prospects in those later rounds because of their Great Drafting in Europe at that time in the later rounds. FACT. Then in another breath in the thread you call these finds pure luck. Cant have it both ways buddy.

If you really want to know whats wrong with me, I have had a bad back the last few days. Thanks for caring. Yes Franzen could have been included with Kronwall as a borderline star player, I typed a little too quickly and put a comma after franzen, if that wasn’t there my comment would have included Franz and Kronwall. No big deal. I still think Franzen at his peak now, is more valuable then kaberle at his best. Whatever the point was made, we have selected better players during that time period I mentioned.




Both our teams have traded away the same amount of picks during the same ten year period, which needs to be looked at when comparing our drafting. Right?








Why do you think? It shows that most of your most important top prospects weren’t even drafted by your team. Makes sense right? Pretty important when you are COMPAIRING DRAFTING YOUR PROSPECTS, not TRADING FOR YOUR PROSPECTS.




Why is it a better list, according to whom? Mine was straight off HFBoards. Lets look at that list again:


1 Nazem Kadri, C
2 Joe Colborne, C
3 Jake Gardiner, D
4 James Reimer, G
5 Keith Aulie, D
6 Jussi Rynnas, G
7 Luca Caputi, LW
8 Jesse Blacker, D
9 Greg McKegg, LW
10 Brad Ross, LW


I’m not saying Detroits total prospects are better then Toronto’s, since I think NOW you have a slightly better pool. This is not due to drafting, but due to liquidating current roster players for picks and prospects. I’m saying our drafting is better, look at it the last 30 years like I talked about above. Ok, five of your top seven prospects are not even drafted by yourself. Now your team is in a rebuild, and have liquidated a bunch of its better players for prospects and picks. Lets look:

-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Tomas Kaberle to the Boston Bruins for Joe Colborne, a first-round draft pick in 2011( and a conditional draft pick in 2012.
-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Alexei Ponikarovsky to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Luca Caputi and Martin Skoula.
-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Nik Antropov to the NY Rangers for a 2nd round selection in 2009 and a conditional draft selection.

Guys like Ross wasn’t even drafted from your natural selection of picks, you guys liquidated roster players to get these extra picks. Blacker the same. Its called rebuilding. Off that top ten list you guys drafted a total of 3 of your top ten picks via your natural picks. Look at Detroit s list of top ten prospects:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings or:
http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/

Not one of those top ten prospects were obtained via trades like Toronto has. Also not one of Detroit roster players was traded in a rebuild to obtain extra picks like your team has done. All ten players shown come from original, non roster player obtained, picks.

You have three of your top ten prospects obtained via natural occurring draft picks. Detroit has 10 out of 10. Big Difference.

So the Leafs liquidated in a rebuild 3 of its more significant players to obtain picks and prospects out of its top ten prospects. What if Detroit liquidated kronwall, franzen, and say cleary, for prospects? Do you think detroits prospect pool would suddenly look better then it is and be better then torontos? You could easily get 2 1sts (higher then 15) and 2 seconds out of those roster players I mentioned and our prospect pool would smash Toronto’s. But that’s the part about drafting strongly, you have great players, you win cups and don’t have to rebuild like the leafs do and liquidate players to improve your prospect pool. Its called being better. Lets compare prospect pools from natural picks, not trades or picks obtained from liquidating *****. You have three vs ten? Who has the stronger pool man out of drafting natural picks? Who has the stronger drafting? We pick later then you guys, too, always. Point made about better drafting then Toronto. Don’t bother to argue. Puuuuulllllleeeeeaaaaasssseeee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Probie
Tverdon, ...

Teemu Pulkkinen: ..
NO, that’s not what I mean. I mentioned Pulkkinen and Tverdon as examples of how Detroit is smart and finds ways methods in being better at drafting. I’m talking about the method of picking guys who slip too far because of freak injuries and grabbing them. I never said they are going to make it for sure that’s not my point, I’m saying they have adapted and have employed a smart strategy of selecting first round talent on forth round picks. It’s a new strategy, just like we have employed before to be near the top of drafting lanscape. Other teams will catch on and start doing the same soon enough. We set trends, cause we are smarter.



MOD

Wait wait.. you think Franzen is playing better than Kaberle ever did?

I read that, and stopped reading.

For one thing, it's apples and oranges. Kaberle is a defencemen, Franzen is a forward. However, Kaberle was a top pairing defencemen. Kaberle actually has scored 65+ points in his career, Franzen has never topped 60. Kaberle at one time was counted on for nearly 30 minutes a game. Franzen?

Kaberle at his best was a #1 defencemen. Franzen has never been more than a 2nd line center thus far in his career.

You realize Kaberle is a defencemen right?

Wow.

 

[Benttheknee]

You do realize that Ottawa scopped up Demitra, Salo and Alfredsson from Europe in the early 90's. I guess Detroit was paying attention, and then claimed to have been the first.

Any other teams do that well?

 

[Pneuma]

Kadri and Reimer are better than any Wings prospect, clear cut.

Colborne and Gardiner are right in the same area as Smith.

So, at the top you have the Leafs clearly winning.

That's not even taking into account other really solid prospects in Keith Aulie (top 2 potential), Luca Caputi (2nd/3rd line potential), Tyler Biggs (top six potential), Stuart Percy (top 4 potential), Brad Ross, Jesse Blacker, and Jerry D'Amigo. That's 7 other guys with a decent shot at being an impact player, beyond the top 4. So a total of 11 real solid prospects.

Detroit?

They have bang or bust guys like Nestrasil and Nyquist, or potential grinders like Callahan in the same rank spots.

Leafs have the better top end talent, and the better depth.

This isn't even close. But, it's not a fair comparison either. Toronto should have a better prospect depth than Detroit, given that Detroit has been contending for ages.

Is Reimer still a prospect by HF's definition? I don't actually know the requirements for goalies.

I think you're being a bit unfair to our prospects. While I agree Kadri is of the highest pedigree, I don't think Smith is our only high end talent. Did you know that Nyquist outscored Colborne by almost 20 points in their best seasons? Or that Pulkkinen broke Selanne's single season assist record for rookies? Did you know that Jarnkrok led all juniors in scoring in the SEL?

Myself and many others would argue the Wings have five prospects on that second tier after Kadri.

 

[Filppula]

Detroit?

They have bang or bust guys like Nestrasil and Nyquist, or potential grinders like Callahan in the same rank spots.

Leafs have the better top end talent, and the better depth.

This isn't even close. But, it's not a fair comparison either. Toronto should have a better prospect depth than Detroit, given that Detroit has been contending for ages.

Don't speak on what you don't know.

Nestrasil? I doubt many would argue he's even in our top 20 prospects. Smith, Tatar, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen all have excellent potential, Smith a potential top pairing defenceman, and the others all potential top six forwards. Mursak, Aubry, Emmerton, Sheahan, Callahan, Andersson all have bottom 6 potential, some are further along than others (Jan will be NHL this season, Emmerton either Wings or another team). We just drafted Jurco and Sproul, both have big potential, and Ouellet, Axelsson and Almquist are intruiging guys too.

 

[jntadt22]

Why is this debate still going on? Everyone on both sides are comparing Apples to Oranges. In my opinion, there is no way to compare the two prospect pools. Reasoning.....

#1 - They are in completely different strategic positions. DRW, trying to keep up at the top of the league and TML trying to get to the top currently. At some point this could switch, but at the moment, Detroit is the better organization.

#2 - With different strategic positions, comes different needs. Detroit doesn't need a bunch of prospects that are going to make the show starting this year (hence the overripe comments). Toronto does need their prospects to step up and prove themselves this year.

#3 - We need to look at two similar organizations to compare equally. Example Detroit with a San Jose or Vancouver. And Toronto with a Columbus, St. Louis or NY Islanders. I think Detroit and San Jose are the class of the league right now and a few others are right behind in terms of overall talent (NHL and Prospects). I think Toronto along with a few others are right on the cusp of breaking out, and that is a great thing for the league overall.

#4 - I think in terms of the league as a whole, it's getting younger and that will benefit all the younger teams. It's truly an exciting time to be a fan of hockey!

I guess that's just one man's opinion, so you guys can all bash away at me now!!! Have fun!!!!

 

[Newfie John]

Don't speak on what you don't know.

Nestrasil? I doubt many would argue he's even in our top 20 prospects. Smith, Tatar, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen all have excellent potential, Smith a potential top pairing defenceman, and the others all potential top six forwards. Mursak, Aubry, Emmerton, Sheahan, Callahan, Andersson all have bottom 6 potential, some are further along than others (Jan will be NHL this season, Emmerton either Wings or another team). We just drafted Jurco and Sproul, both have big potential, and Ouellet, Axelsson and Almquist are intruiging guys too.

HF has Nestrasil as your #8 prospect.

I'd put him at 12, but still.. easily within your top 20.

My point remains.

Kadri and Reimer are above and beyond any Wings prospect.

Then you have Colborne/Gardiner there in Smith territory.

Then, starting at the Leafs 5th best prospect come:

Aulie
Caputi
Blacker
Ross
Biggs
Percy
D'Amigo

or starting at Detroit's 2nd best prospect:

Tatar
Mursak
Nyquist
Pulkkinen
Jarnkrok

and even beyond that point you admit there isn't any top six potential, where the Leafs still have top six bang or busts in McKegg, Olden, etc.

Leafs have the better prospect pool, and it isn't even close.

 

[The Chiddler]

Why do you think? It shows that most of your most important top prospects weren’t even drafted by your team. Makes sense right? Pretty important when you are COMPAIRING DRAFTING YOUR PROSPECTS, not TRADING FOR YOUR PROSPECTS.

I think the thread is about who has a better prospect pool actually soo...

Why is it a better list, according to whom? Mine was straight off HFBoards. Lets look at that list again:


1 Nazem Kadri, C
2 Joe Colborne, C
3 Jake Gardiner, D
4 James Reimer, G
5 Keith Aulie, D
6 Jussi Rynnas, G
7 Luca Caputi, LW
8 Jesse Blacker, D
9 Greg McKegg, LW
10 Brad Ross, LW

It's such a better list, that HFboards list is from a year ago, Caputi and Rynnas are ranked #14 and #16 on our boards prospect rankings. Your also leaving out this year's draft picks Biggs and Percy.

I’m not saying Detroits total prospects are better then Toronto’s, since I think NOW you have a slightly better pool. This is not due to drafting, but due to liquidating current roster players for picks and prospects. I’m saying our drafting is better, look at it the last 30 years like I talked about above. Ok, five of your top seven prospects are not even drafted by yourself. Now your team is in a rebuild, and have liquidated a bunch of its better players for prospects and picks. Lets look:

-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Tomas Kaberle to the Boston Bruins for Joe Colborne, a first-round draft pick in 2011( and a conditional draft pick in 2012.
-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Alexei Ponikarovsky to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Luca Caputi and Martin Skoula.
-Toronto Maple Leafs traded Nik Antropov to the NY Rangers for a 2nd round selection in 2009 and a conditional draft selection.

Guys like Ross wasn’t even drafted from your natural selection of picks, you guys liquidated roster players to get these extra picks. Blacker the same. Its called rebuilding. Off that top ten list you guys drafted a total of 3 of your top ten picks via your natural picks. Look at Detroit s list of top ten prospects:
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings or:
http://www.redwingscentral.com/prospects/

Not one of those top ten prospects were obtained via trades like Toronto has. Also not one of Detroit roster players was traded in a rebuild to obtain extra picks like your team has done. All ten players shown come from original, non roster player obtained, picks.

You have three of your top ten prospects obtained via natural occurring draft picks. Detroit has 10 out of 10. Big Difference.

So the Leafs liquidated in a rebuild 3 of its more significant players to obtain picks and prospects out of its top ten prospects. What if Detroit liquidated kronwall, franzen, and say cleary, for prospects? Do you think detroits prospect pool would suddenly look better then it is and be better then torontos? You could easily get 2 1sts (higher then 15) and 2 seconds out of those roster players I mentioned and our prospect pool would smash Toronto’s.

There is actually no difference, your arguing that Blacker and Ross shouldn't count because they weren't our "natural" picks. I've never seen someone use that argument before, it's not even like we didn't pick those players. In the end does it really matter who picked them? **** happens, players get traded all the time, it doesn't really change their value as a prospect.

What are you talking about? lmao "Liquidating players". Is that what you call trading pieces that really dont fit with the team moving forward, for prospects that you either feel are a better fit or picks that you can use to pick your own players?

You also forgot the Beauchemin for Gardiner trade, and the Versteeg for a 1st and a 3rd, but I really would not compare any of those players (Except maybe Kaberle) to Kronwall or Franzen like you're doing. They really had very little to offer to the Leafs moving forward. Not to mention none of the teams that aquired those players were very happy with them after the trade, except maybe Anaheim.

But that’s the part about drafting strongly, you have great players, you win cups and don’t have to rebuild like the leafs do and liquidate players to improve your prospect pool. Its called being better. Lets compare prospect pools from natural picks, not trades or picks obtained from liquidating *****. You have three vs ten? Who has the stronger pool man out of drafting natural picks? Who has the stronger drafting? We pick later then you guys, too, always. Point made about better drafting then Toronto. Don’t bother to argue. Puuuuulllllleeeeeaaaaasssseeee.

Let's not, I'd prefer instead to just look at all the prospects that each team has, instead of using your strange logic.

 

[Pneuma]

HF has Nestrasil as your #8 prospect.

I'd put him at 12, but still.. easily within your top 20.

My point remains.

Kadri and Reimer are above and beyond any Wings prospect.

Then you have Colborne/Gardiner there in Smith territory.

Then, starting at the Leafs 5th best prospect come:

Aulie
Caputi
Blacker
Ross
Biggs
Percy
D'Amigo

or starting at Detroit's 2nd best prospect:

Tatar
Mursak
Nyquist
Pulkkinen
Jarnkrok

and even beyond that point you admit there isn't any top six potential, where the Leafs still have top six bang or busts in McKegg, Olden, etc.

Leafs have the better prospect pool, and it isn't even close.

I like how you include your first round picks from this year but then leave out Jurco and Sheahan from the Wings.

 

[Man Hole Inspector*]

Who cares.. everyone has there own opinion.. This is comparing apple to oranges to the fans of each respective team there's going to be an argument regardless

 

[deadp0ol]

Im not gonna say which pool is better, but why are ppl discounting prospects via trade? The question is which team has a better prospect POOL not which team drafted all their prospects.

 

[embracedbias]

Why is this debate still going on? Everyone on both sides are comparing Apples to Oranges. In my opinion, there is no way to compare the two prospect pools. Reasoning.....

#1 - They are in completely different strategic positions. DRW, trying to keep up at the top of the league and TML trying to get to the top currently. At some point this could switch, but at the moment, Detroit is the better organization.

#2 - With different strategic positions, comes different needs. Detroit doesn't need a bunch of prospects that are going to make the show starting this year (hence the overripe comments). Toronto does need their prospects to step up and prove themselves this year.

#3 - We need to look at two similar organizations to compare equally. Example Detroit with a San Jose or Vancouver. And Toronto with a Columbus, St. Louis or NY Islanders. I think Detroit and San Jose are the class of the league right now and a few others are right behind in terms of overall talent (NHL and Prospects). I think Toronto along with a few others are right on the cusp of breaking out, and that is a great thing for the league overall.

#4 - I think in terms of the league as a whole, it's getting younger and that will benefit all the younger teams. It's truly an exciting time to be a fan of hockey!

I guess that's just one man's opinion, so you guys can all bash away at me now!!! Have fun!!!!

1) Just because the teams are in different positions doesn't mean that the comparison is meaningless. If, for example, Detroit had a better prospect pool than the Leafs despite their lack of high picks, it would strongly suggest that Detroit had some really excellent drafts over the past 5 years or so. Of course, despite the protestations of Detroit fans, Detroit clearly does not have a better prospect pool.

2) Toronto does not (and has not) drafted prospects based solely on their ability to step into the lineup immediately. The Leafs are a rebuilding team, so the strategy is not (and has not been) to "win now". Toronto does not need our prospects to step up this year. In fact, there is only one spot that is open to a prospect.... depending on if Lombardi is healthy.

Lupul - Connolly - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur
_____ - Bozak - Armstrong
Brown - Dupuis/Boyce - Orr

Phaneuf - Aulie
Liles - Schenn
Gunnarsson - Komisarek
Franson

3) If you're saying that the Leafs have a better prospect pool then good, I agree.



This is not necessarily directed at you, but it seems to me that the idea that Detroit has a special way of dealing with prospects is wrong. Granted, they never rush prospects.. but most teams don't either. There are only a few examples of a prospect being kept in the NHL when they aren't ready, and they usually arise in special circumstances. Tlusty is probably an example for the Leafs... but such a thing hasn't happened while Burke has been in charge.

Probie uses Mursak as an example of the "overripe" method. He got 1 point in 19 games this season. Doesn't sound overripe to me. Not only that, but he played 8:11 per game... why did Detroit bring him up to play 4th line minutes when he could be "ripening" in the AHL?

If Detroit doesn't dress players until they are "overripe", why did Helm suit up at 21 and 22? Why is he playing 13 minutes a night in the NHL when he could be getting big minutes in the AHL. Same goes for Abdelkader and Kindl. These are not "overripe" players.

The truth is, Detroit will put a player in the lineup when they feel that the player will help them win. Just like every other team in the league. If guys like Mursak and Emmerton haven't made a contribution at the NHL level yet, it says more about their value as prospects than Detroit's method.

 

[Benttheknee]

1) The truth is, Detroit will put a player in the lineup when they feel that the player will help them win. Just like every other team in the league. If guys like Mursak and Emmerton haven't made a contribution at the NHL level yet, it says more about their value as prospects than Detroit's method.

Bingo! This position has been oversold so much, that people assume it is true. If a team is deep they can hold back their guys for maybe a year. Some guys get rushed. But Detroit is not the only team that does this. Deep teams do this, and Detroit has been deep.

What does it say about a prospect pool when you go out and bring in Commodore and White to play D. It tells me that there are positions that need to be manned by NHL vets, not 'lets keep our NHL ready kids in the minors until they are overripe'.

I do think though that Detroit did a good job in the 2010 draft. 2011 is to early to tell.

 

[jntadt22]

1) Just because the teams are in different positions doesn't mean that the comparison is meaningless. If, for example, Detroit had a better prospect pool than the Leafs despite their lack of high picks, it would strongly suggest that Detroit had some really excellent drafts over the past 5 years or so. Of course, despite the protestations of Detroit fans, Detroit clearly does not have a better prospect pool.

2) Toronto does not (and has not) drafted prospects based solely on their ability to step into the lineup immediately. The Leafs are a rebuilding team, so the strategy is not (and has not been) to "win now". Toronto does not need our prospects to step up this year. In fact, there is only one spot that is open to a prospect.... depending on if Lombardi is healthy.

Lupul - Connolly - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur
_____ - Bozak - Armstrong
Brown - Dupuis/Boyce - Orr

Phaneuf - Aulie
Liles - Schenn
Gunnarsson - Komisarek
Franson

3) If you're saying that the Leafs have a better prospect pool then good, I agree.



This is not necessarily directed at you, but it seems to me that the idea that Detroit has a special way of dealing with prospects is wrong. Granted, they never rush prospects.. but most teams don't either. There are only a few examples of a prospect being kept in the NHL when they aren't ready, and they usually arise in special circumstances. Tlusty is probably an example for the Leafs... but such a thing hasn't happened while Burke has been in charge.

Probie uses Mursak as an example of the "overripe" method. He got 1 point in 19 games this season. Doesn't sound overripe to me. Not only that, but he played 8:11 per game... why did Detroit bring him up to play 4th line minutes when he could be "ripening" in the AHL?

If Detroit doesn't dress players until they are "overripe", why did Helm suit up at 21 and 22? Why is he playing 13 minutes a night in the NHL when he could be getting big minutes in the AHL. Same goes for Abdelkader and Kindl. These are not "overripe" players.

The truth is, Detroit will put a player in the lineup when they feel that the player will help them win. Just like every other team in the league. If guys like Mursak and Emmerton haven't made a contribution at the NHL level yet, it says more about their value as prospects than Detroit's method.

We might be thinking the similarly, just a tad bit different. While I agree we probably don't have a better "prospect pool", we don't need one, because our NHLers are better than TO's. That's why I made the comment about right now Detroit being a better Organization. And because our NHLers (right now) are better we can allow them to stay in the AHL/CHL for longer to fester (I like this better than overripe). I think by saying all of this, TO should have a better prospect pool, just by draft position alone. Also, I don't think that TO drafts for players to play right now, but they do rush them (see Nazem Kadri) sometimes maybe more than you'd like to admit. In my personal opinion, TO brass did him a major disservice by expecting him to step into that lineup a few years ago and deliver. He hadn't refined any pro skills to that point (skating & attitude) and that is the basic reason I think Detroit (right now) has the better organization.

This could and probably will change in the near future, if the likes of Emmerton, B. Smith, Mursak, etc. don't step up and be legitimate NHLers. If they don't, Detroit could very well end up in a huge tailspin. Then I'll have to root for the next team to go to the playoffs 20+ years in a row!!

 

[Voodoo Child]

Leafs pool is better, but not to the degree that it should be.

 

[embracedbias]

We might be thinking the similarly, just a tad bit different. While I agree we probably don't have a better "prospect pool", we don't need one, because our NHLers are better than TO's. That's why I made the comment about right now Detroit being a better Organization. And because our NHLers (right now) are better we can allow them to stay in the AHL/CHL for longer to fester (I like this better than overripe). I think by saying all of this, TO should have a better prospect pool, just by draft position alone. Also, I don't think that TO drafts for players to play right now, but they do rush them (see Nazem Kadri) sometimes maybe more than you'd like to admit. In my personal opinion, TO brass did him a major disservice by expecting him to step into that lineup a few years ago and deliver. He hadn't refined any pro skills to that point (skating & attitude) and that is the basic reason I think Detroit (right now) has the better organization.

This could and probably will change in the near future, if the likes of Emmerton, B. Smith, Mursak, etc. don't step up and be legitimate NHLers. If they don't, Detroit could very well end up in a huge tailspin. Then I'll have to root for the next team to go to the playoffs 20+ years in a row!!

Kadri hasn't been rushed. Most think that he should have made the team out of training camp last year, but Wilson and Burke decided that some AHL time would be best. He went on to put up very good numbers in the AHL and when the Leafs started to slide in November, he was given a chance to show his stuff. After 17 games, he looked like he could use some more time in the AHL.

After the trade deadline he got another 12 game stint in the NHL. He ended up doing pretty well, getting 6 points in that time.


Also, I'm of the opinion that Detroit has been successful over the past couple of seasons due to their elite talent as opposed to their depth. That is, their depth isn't all that much better than Toronto's... what makes Detroit a better team is that you guys have Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom. The bottom six forwards and bottom 4 defensemen aren't all that impressive.

 

[newfy]

Probie uses Mursak as an example of the "overripe" method. He got 1 point in 19 games this season. Doesn't sound overripe to me. Not only that, but he played 8:11 per game... why did Detroit bring him up to play 4th line minutes when he could be "ripening" in the AHL?

If Detroit doesn't dress players until they are "overripe", why did Helm suit up at 21 and 22? Why is he playing 13 minutes a night in the NHL when he could be getting big minutes in the AHL. Same goes for Abdelkader and Kindl. These are not "overripe" players.

The truth is, Detroit will put a player in the lineup when they feel that the player will help them win. Just like every other team in the league. If guys like Mursak and Emmerton haven't made a contribution at the NHL level yet, it says more about their value as prospects than Detroit's method.

Mursak is a prime example of the overripe method, he came up and had no opportunity at a scoring role but with all the injuries they had for a bit they decided to give him a bit of an NHL taste.

You say he only had 1 point than say he only played 8 mins a night... Hmm I wonder why he only had 1 point.

Helm was a rare case. He came up for the playoffs because he was perfect for the fourth line role as center where the wings needed a guy instead of Mark Hartigan (who?). They kept him up the next season because he played so well.

Abdelkader wasnt brought up until he was out of waiver options, same with Kindl. That is overripe, Kindl isnt being rushed into the NHL and having his confidence ruined while he refines his game. The only reason Abdelkader played some games before he was out of waiver options was because of the injury bug once again. Remember when Drew Miller was playing with Datsyuk for a period of time 2 years ago?

Right now its looking like Brendan Smith, who is better than every Toronto prospect other than Kadri who is arguable depending on preference, isnt going to make the NHL until he is out of waiver options because they are making him overripe. Emmerton is probably going to be in the NHL this year over Tatar as well.

So no, you are flat out wrong. Detroit over ripens pretty mucvh all of their prospects. 95% dont play full time ont he wings roster until they are out of waiver options.

 

[Benttheknee]

Mursak is a prime example of the overripe method, he came up and had no opportunity at a scoring role but with all the injuries they had for a bit they decided to give him a bit of an NHL taste.

You say he only had 1 point than say he only played 8 mins a night... Hmm I wonder why he only had 1 point.

Helm was a rare case. He came up for the playoffs because he was perfect for the fourth line role as center where the wings needed a guy instead of Mark Hartigan (who?). They kept him up the next season because he played so well.

Abdelkader wasnt brought up until he was out of waiver options, same with Kindl. That is overripe, Kindl isnt being rushed into the NHL and having his confidence ruined while he refines his game. The only reason Abdelkader played some games before he was out of waiver options was because of the injury bug once again. Remember when Drew Miller was playing with Datsyuk for a period of time 2 years ago?

Right now its looking like Brendan Smith, who is better than every Toronto prospect other than Kadri who is arguable depending on preference, isnt going to make the NHL until he is out of waiver options because they are making him overripe. Emmerton is probably going to be in the NHL this year over Tatar as well.

So no, you are flat out wrong. Detroit over ripens pretty mucvh all of their prospects. 95% dont play full time ont he wings roster until they are out of waiver options.

Ok, so lets pretend that this is in fact the case. What are the benefits to Detroit? One has to assume that since the players are 'more NHL ready' they would perform more closely to their peaks.

I guess that means that Fillupula, Kindl, Helm and Abdelkader have peaked?

What I think this is, is simply a myth. You have Smith available and he has experience. Why did Detroit pick up Commodore and White? Are they better than Smith?

Again, assuming this is the case, would the NHLPA not be a little miffed that Detroit is burying players in the minors? How would a player feel if they got picked up by Detroit and left to "ripen" at 80k a year, rather than making 1.2 million in the NHL for a team like Ottawa?

This simply is not true. Look at Condra and Greening in Ottawa, did they 'ripen' or were they just needing more development time in the AHL?

 

[embracedbias]

Mursak is a prime example of the overripe method, he came up and had no opportunity at a scoring role but with all the injuries they had for a bit they decided to give him a bit of an NHL taste.

You say he only had 1 point than say he only played 8 mins a night... Hmm I wonder why he only had 1 point.

Wait, I don't understand how Mursak is a prime example of the overripe method. He got called up because of injuries... not because he was overripe. What exactly do you think the overripe method is?

If he was a better player, he would play more than 8:00 minutes. He would also have more points.

Helm was a rare case. He came up for the playoffs because he was perfect for the fourth line role as center where the wings needed a guy instead of Mark Hartigan (who?). They kept him up the next season because he played so well.

Another example of a player being put in the lineup because he was the best available option and not because he was overripe.

Abdelkader wasnt brought up until he was out of waiver options, same with Kindl. That is overripe, Kindl isnt being rushed into the NHL and having his confidence ruined while he refines his game. The only reason Abdelkader played some games before he was out of waiver options was because of the injury bug once again. Remember when Drew Miller was playing with Datsyuk for a period of time 2 years ago?

And yet neither of these guys are lighting up the league? Perhaps it's just the case that they weren't ready for the NHL?

Abdelkader played some games due to the injury bug (i.e., because he was the best available option).

Is it better for Kindl to play 13:00 minutes a night in the NHL or 20:00 minutes a night in the AHL?

Right now its looking like Brendan Smith, who is better than every Toronto prospect other than Kadri who is arguable depending on preference, isnt going to make the NHL until he is out of waiver options because they are making him overripe. Emmerton is probably going to be in the NHL this year over Tatar as well.

Those are assumptions.

So no, you are flat out wrong. Detroit over ripens pretty mucvh all of their prospects. 95% dont play full time ont he wings roster until they are out of waiver options.

No, Detroit just doesn't have that good of prospects. Helm and Mursak were obviously not overripe. Same goes for Filppula*, Hudler** and Kronwall***. Abdelkader and Kindl may be examples... but they also aren't that good in the first place.

When Detroit has good prospects (Helm, Filppula, Hudler, Kronwall), they bring the prospects up earlier. Obviously, better prospects will be brought up earlier because they are more ready to make a contribution at the NHL level. If Detroit truly held to a strong "overripe" method, none of their prospects would play a game in the NHL until they lose waiver eligibility (barring special circumstances).



*Made the NHL at 22/23 after one season in the AHL. Had 17 points in 73 games.
** Played 12 games in the NHL at 20/21 after some AHL duty.
*** Played 20 games in the NHL at 22/23 after some AHL duty.

 

[King In The North]

No leafs fans actually think Aulie has top 2 potential right?