Wings vs. Leafs prospect pools

[ComradeChris]

Ya the whole Detroit reputation for drafting is really getting old. Two players that turned into superstars over a decade ago needs to be re-assessed based on different players.

Which is what we're saying... every 9 years they hit the jackpot. This time it's Jarnkrok and Pulkkinen. Last time it was Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Before that Konstantinov, Federov, Lidstrom. They are due for a big hit. It's not so much their scouting... it's a crap shoot for everyone, but instead it has become more about THEIR DEVELOPMENT. That is what Detroit is so good at... developing players with high end talent. They do a much better job than most teams.

 

[Stephen]

Which is what we're saying... every 9 years they hit the jackpot. This time it's Jarnkrok and Pulkkinen. Last time it was Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Before that Konstantinov, Federov, Lidstrom. They are due for a big hit. It's not so much their scouting... it's a crap shoot for everyone, but instead it has become more about THEIR DEVELOPMENT. That is what Detroit is so good at... developing players with high end talent. They do a much better job than most teams.

Outside of the Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafts, I would say Detroit's development of players between 1999 and 2011 is not actually as spectacular as the hype suggests, and the idea that they're due for another home run is kind of silly the way Hudler, Grigorenko, Filppula, Kopecky and Leino were once picked for superstardom. They draft really good players, and in good numbers too, and deserve a ton of recognition for where they draft as contenders, but they're hardly churning out superstars year after year. Their system also provides a support system that allows for their prospects to succeed.

But when you take the likes of Abdelkader, Leino, Filippula, Hudler, Helm, Howard, Ericsson, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. a lot of teams have manage to pull that kind of quantity and quality out of the draft since 2000. It's nothing that remarkable.

Look at Boston for example. They had a few down years, but they were mostly competitive since 2000 and have drafted players and prospects like Hamilton, Seguin, Kessel, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Colborne, Stuart, Krecji, Versteeg, Hunwick, etc. is every bit as good as what Detroit has gotten up to.

 

[Anchor Town*]

Outside of the Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafts, I would say Detroit's development of players between 1999 and 2011 is not actually as spectacular as the hype suggests, and the idea that they're due for another home run is kind of silly the way Hudler, Grigorenko, Filppula, Kopecky and Leino were once picked for superstardom.

We didn't draft Leino, just signed him as a free agent. no real hopes for him.

Grigorenko was involved in a horrific accident that almost ended him life, but was looking great before that.

Kopecky, no one had top 6 written about him.

Only two that Detroit fans were excited about that didn't turn out as well as hoped was Hudler and Filppula, who still became solid 2nd-3rd liners

 

[Stephen]

We didn't draft Leino, just signed him as a free agent. no real hopes for him.

Grigorenko was involved in a horrific accident that almost ended him life, but was looking great before that.

Kopecky, no one had top 6 written about him.

Only two that Detroit fans were excited about that didn't turn out as well as hoped was Hudler and Filppula, who still became solid 2nd-3rd liners

My general point is Detroit prospects benefit from the Red Wings mystique to an unreasonable degree, and it's useless to use that as a benchmark for self evaluation and comparison. Nobody assumes some random Bruins pick is going to be a superstar, even though they have had a fantastic track record the past dozen years. Yet people do exactly that with just about every European picked between the second and seventh rounds by the Red Wings year after year.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Outside of the Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafts, I would say Detroit's development of players between 1999 and 2011 is not actually as spectacular as the hype suggests, and the idea that they're due for another home run is kind of silly the way Hudler, Grigorenko, Filppula, Kopecky and Leino were once picked for superstardom. They draft really good players, and in good numbers too, and deserve a ton of recognition for where they draft as contenders, but they're hardly churning out superstars year after year. Their system also provides a support system that allows for their prospects to succeed.

But when you take the likes of Abdelkader, Leino, Filippula, Hudler, Helm, Howard, Ericsson, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. a lot of teams have manage to pull that kind of quantity and quality out of the draft since 2000. It's nothing that remarkable.

Look at Boston for example. They had a few down years, but they were mostly competitive since 2000 and have drafted players and prospects like Hamilton, Seguin, Kessel, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Colborne, Stuart, Krecji, Versteeg, Hunwick, etc. is every bit as good as what Detroit has gotten up to.

one of those names are not like the others ...

ps: i bolded it for you

 

[Anchor Town*]

My general point is Detroit prospects benefit from the Red Wings mystique to an unreasonable degree, and it's useless to use that as a benchmark for self evaluation and comparison. Nobody assumes some random Bruins pick is going to be a superstar, even though they have had a fantastic track record the past dozen years. Yet people do exactly that with just about every European picked between the second and seventh rounds by the Red Wings year after year.

It's usually other fanbases doing this though

 

[Stephen]

It's usually other fanbases doing this though

Yeah I'm not blaming Red Wings fans, and I think the Red Wings do a great job, but the comparison makes no sense because the Wings have been busy winning cups and we've been trying to build from the ground up, and also because the Wings tend to get the benefit of the doubt, while there's a lot of skepticism surrounding the Leafs and whatever they do with their kids.

 

[Stephen]

one of those names are not like the others ...

ps: i bolded it for you

Yeah I just mean there are other teams developing everyday NHLers and stars in the same fashion as Detroit, whose group also ranges in quality.

 

[Man Hole Inspector*]

Which is what we're saying... every 9 years they hit the jackpot. This time it's Jarnkrok and Pulkkinen. Last time it was Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Before that Konstantinov, Federov, Lidstrom. They are due for a big hit. It's not so much their scouting... it's a crap shoot for everyone, but instead it has become more about THEIR DEVELOPMENT. That is what Detroit is so good at... developing players with high end talent. They do a much better job than most teams.

Hey you can remain optimistic, wouldn`t expect both Jarnkrok/Pulkkinnen for super-stardom though.. There's a good chance they could be Hudler/Flippula all over again too. Detroit is great at developing prospects but scouting has improved too much over the course of the last 20 years. I really don't expect them to pull a pair of stars out of no where.. Never know tho

 

[Megan Fox]

Outside of the Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafts, I would say Detroit's development of players between 1999 and 2011 is not actually as spectacular as the hype suggests, and the idea that they're due for another home run is kind of silly the way Hudler, Grigorenko, Filppula, Kopecky and Leino were once picked for superstardom. They draft really good players, and in good numbers too, and deserve a ton of recognition for where they draft as contenders, but they're hardly churning out superstars year after year. Their system also provides a support system that allows for their prospects to succeed.

But when you take the likes of Abdelkader, Leino, Filippula, Hudler, Helm, Howard, Ericsson, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. a lot of teams have manage to pull that kind of quantity and quality out of the draft since 2000. It's nothing that remarkable.

Look at Boston for example. They had a few down years, but they were mostly competitive since 2000 and have drafted players and prospects like Hamilton, Seguin, Kessel, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Colborne, Stuart, Krecji, Versteeg, Hunwick, etc. is every bit as good as what Detroit has gotten up to.

I remember reading a study that showed that Detroit had the lowest percentage of their draft picks turning into NHL players.

 

[ricky0034]

I remember reading a study that showed that Detroit had the lowest percentage of their draft picks turning into NHL players.

if that's true it's only because they haven't picked higher than 19th since 1991 and because of the way they develop their players(takes a long time for Wings prospects to make the NHL)

also they traded most of their first rounders before the lockout(they had 2 in the 8 drafts from 1997 to the lockout)

Outside of the Zetterberg and Datsyuk drafts, I would say Detroit's development of players between 1999 and 2011 is not actually as spectacular as the hype suggests, and the idea that they're due for another home run is kind of silly the way Hudler, Grigorenko, Filppula, Kopecky and Leino were once picked for superstardom. They draft really good players, and in good numbers too, and deserve a ton of recognition for where they draft as contenders, but they're hardly churning out superstars year after year. Their system also provides a support system that allows for their prospects to succeed.

But when you take the likes of Abdelkader, Leino, Filippula, Hudler, Helm, Howard, Ericsson, Kronwall, Franzen, etc. a lot of teams have manage to pull that kind of quantity and quality out of the draft since 2000. It's nothing that remarkable.

Look at Boston for example. They had a few down years, but they were mostly competitive since 2000 and have drafted players and prospects like Hamilton, Seguin, Kessel, Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Colborne, Stuart, Krecji, Versteeg, Hunwick, etc. is every bit as good as what Detroit has gotten up to.

real classy of you

 

[Stephen]

real classy of you

He recovered to play professional hockey to this very day.

 

[Anchor Town*]

He recovered to play professional hockey to this very day.

but not at the level he was heading towards

 

[Anchor Town*]

if that's true it's only because they haven't picked higher than 19th since 1991 and because of the way they develop their players(takes a long time for Wings prospects to make the NHL)

also they traded most of their first rounders before the lockout(they had 2 in the 8 drafts from 1997 to the lockout)

Exactly, I bet if you factored in where they drafted said players that they would shoot up the rankings

 

[Foxlockbox]

Ya the whole Detroit reputation for drafting is really getting old. Two players that turned into superstars over a decade ago needs to be re-assessed based on different players.

Check how many 1st rounders they've had after Zetty and Datsy. They have converted more >2nd rounders to good NHL players than most have gotten from 1st rounders.

 

[theIceWookie]

Not meant to be a bash Toronto thread but I noticed in another thread Torontos prospects were getting some love.

I would like to know from (rational) Toronto fans, wings fans and some neutral fans which pool they think is better and why?

I personally think they are pretty much even but am wondering what others think.

Top forward prospects

Tatar + Kadri... Kadri was the higher pick but Tatar has exceeded all expectations. They had virtually the same production this year and Tatar became the youngest wing to score a goal since Jiri Fischer made the team as an 18 year old.

Top Defenseman

Smith + Gardiner.. Smith wins this in a land slide. He is one of the better offensive defenseman prospects going and is tough. A kronwall that fights is what I'm thinking. Gardiner looks to be a number 4 guy, Smith may have that number 1 potential.

Top Goalie

Reimer + Mrazek or Larsson

Reimer takes this. Larsson however has been great in Europe and Mrazek had MVP type numbers in the OHL last season, no slouches by any means.


Thats a quick look. After that Toronto has guys like Aulie who I think will be a number 4 Brad Stuart type, a solid goalie in Rynnas, Biggs whose offense is questioned but looks like a sure fire NHLer and Colborne of course.

Detroit has the rookie of the year from Sweden in Jarnkrok who will not spend time in the AHL, and from the SM Liiga Pulkkinen who just beat Selanne assist record for rookies and was a few points off his total.

I say a wash basically, argument can be made either way

Kadri versus Tatar is a win for Kadri. Tatar has had the luxury of playing in the AHL for two seasons now and in his second season, he was still outscored by Kadri on a PPG basis. Heck, Kadri almost outscored Tatar in the AHL in almost 30 less games. had he hit 55 games, its more than likely that he would have outscored Tatar. Tatar may be a great prospect and exceeded all expectation but Kadri has improved in every year he's played. He gets far to much flack for not scoring more in the NHL. Kadri wins out here easy.

Smith over Gardiner is right. Smith put up better point totals at the same age than Gardiner did. Plus Smith has a year in the AHL on Gardiner. Is Smith a potential number 1 guy? Eh, that's a stretch I think. However Gardiner doesn't match up with him.

After Reimer the Leafs have Rynnas and Scrivens (not counting Sparks or Owuya). Rynnas wasn't amazing but put up solid first year AHL numbers. Scriven put up insane AHL numbers and was up in the the leaders cats as a rookie. Toronto wins easy on this.

The biggest thing Toronto wins on is depth. Colborne, Blacker, Aulie, McKegg, Ross, Biggs, D'Amigo, Frattin, Nicholls, Caputi and more. It's just a deeper system than the Red Wings. The Red Wings have some nice players at the top but their depth is a little lacking.

 

[Dosing]

People think the wings dont have prospect depth for the same reason the wings have been able to draft so nicely, people dont know how good their prospects are. It'll take a number of years between each 'steal' till they will need to bring up a new generation so no one can really answer this atm.

 

[syc]

True, but so could the Maple Leafs. Fact is, Detroit hasn't really developed an all star player like Datsyuk, Zetterberg in 8 years. You can only pull the "possible Datsyuk, Zetterberg" card for so long. I think scouting and particularly international scouting has somewhat evened out over the years(although obviously many teams still have an advantage). There is so much technology and money involved in international scouting where it is much more difficult to find that diamond in the ruff.

It is more luck to find that diamond in the 6th and 7th round. If a team was so sold that a player would become a possible superstar they would probably draft them much higher in fear of another team scooping him up. It just seems unrealistic to count on your team to find that kind of player that becomes a difference maker in the late rounds.

I was going to say the Wings haven't pulled magic at a draft in like 10 years.

Leafs pool wins hands down and it's not really close.

 

[vezna*]

wings drafting is incredibly overrated

they were great before other teams started spending on scouting overseas

 

[FrozenJagrt]

I hate to do it, but I have to go with the Leafs in this discussion. And I really do not like picking my favourite team in these polls because let`s face it, they just aren`t that impressive in any area of the organization. Not to me. I see a lot of prospects in their system who will likely stick in the NHL, though not likely as scoring superstars. Burke has made a lot of safe picks the past couple of years, guys who can find a spot on the second line, or make a career being bottom six grinders. With Detroit, as mentioned, they seem to have a lot of boom or bust prospects. Outside of Smith, I am not really impressed with that pool. And Smith does not look to me like a top pairing defender. I do not see that potential.

And if it comes down to it, we know the Leafs` prospects could simply beat the snot out of all the other prospect pools. Hurrah for an abundance of goons.

 

[dacostalove]

pools full of potential 3/4 line plugs = DEPTH!

grinders are nothing special. having a large quantity of them means nothing.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

pools full of potential 3/4 line plugs = DEPTH!

grinders are nothing special. having a large quantity of them means nothing.

3/4th liners arent plugs .. the leafs have lots of quality bottom 6ers .... i would take a very good 3rd liner; ie Clutterbuck ... over a mediocre 2nd liner; ie Filpulla

 

[FrozenJagrt]

pools full of potential 3/4 line plugs = DEPTH!

grinders are nothing special. having a large quantity of them means nothing.

Would you rather have a guy who *might* make the NHL as a scorer or a guy who will *probably* make the NHL as a grinder while still *possibly* showing even more?

 

[Strong Island]

Would you rather have a guy who *might* make the NHL as a scorer or a guy who will *probably* make the NHL as a grinder while still *possibly* showing even more?

The former by far.

Only 18 skaters play at once, leaving room for only a few "grinders," players who are oftentimes easily available on waivers and on cheap UFA contracts. The small chance of getting a legit scorer is more valuable than a great chance at getting a "grinder".

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

pools full of potential 3/4 line plugs = DEPTH!

grinders are nothing special. having a large quantity of them means nothing.

Kadri
Colborne
McKegg
Frattin
Gardiner
Blacker
Aulie
Percy

All have the skill and potential to be top 6 forwards/ top 4 defenseman. Just because you're ignorant towards the Leafs prospect pool doesn't mean there's no skill or talent in it.