Confirmed with Link: Wings trade Andreas Athanasiou to Edmonton

[Rzombo4 prez]

How much did McDavid get in the same game? Or you just a stat watching pro?

He is saying even without McDavid in the lineup, AA still only received 11:00 TOI.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Holland is like having a leak in your boat that doesn't sink you right away. He spends assets on things that don't work or are at best marginal stop gaps for an issue you shouldn't have tried to fix. Sure a second here a prospect there, no one is going to miss that right? Then all of a sudden your team starts declining and there doesn't seem to be anything in the future to stop the decline.

I think EDM is a great fit for him because he knows how to not mess up a functioning roster and he is not afraid to get bad contracts out of the way. But some day when that roster no longer functions he is a creeping death spiral into oblivion for an organization.

Yeah... no.

If you want to go with this analogy, Holland is the guy who pushes through having a leak in his boat during a race and basically throws whatever rag or whatever to keep the boat afloat. He pushes everything so he can attempt to finish without much of a delay as opposed to stopping, fixing the leak, and going on.

Sure, once the bottom falls out and it sinks, you're screwed. But the issues that he's trying to fix are ones that will let you try to stay in the race at that time. Not "oh the sails are the wrong color" or something, but when you get a rip in one of the sails when you're out at sea. If you happen to be near a port, you can replace the sail with a brand new one. If you're out at sea, you just have to patch and hope.

Holland was certainly the wrong GM for Detroit to have as soon as Lidstrom retired and definitely once Datsyuk was on the way out. But it is just dumb to continue to paint him as some death knell.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Yeah... no.

If you want to go with this analogy, Holland is the guy who pushes through having a leak in his boat during a race and basically throws whatever rag or whatever to keep the boat afloat. He pushes everything so he can attempt to finish without much of a delay as opposed to stopping, fixing the leak, and going on.

Sure, once the bottom falls out and it sinks, you're screwed. But the issues that he's trying to fix are ones that will let you try to stay in the race at that time. Not "oh the sails are the wrong color" or something, but when you get a rip in one of the sails when you're out at sea. If you happen to be near a port, you can replace the sail with a brand new one. If you're out at sea, you just have to patch and hope.

Holland was certainly the wrong GM for Detroit to have as soon as Lidstrom retired and definitely once Datsyuk was on the way out. But it is just dumb to continue to paint him as some death knell.

I think Holland did what he was told. Once mike ilitch died and the organization committed to rebuilding he made a lot of nice moves.

 

[Retire91]

I think Holland did what he was told. Once mike ilitch died and the organization committed to rebuilding he made a lot of nice moves.

Illitch also passed away the year we finally missed the playoffs so although I understand where you are coming from it can only be speculation. There is still a legitimate argument that Holland went for it until the wheels flew off. I do concede there is a possibility Illitch flat out ordered Holland to keep the streak going but I would prefer to see some sources of that before adopting it as cannon.

Sorry to take the thread off track though this is in dozens of other threads.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Illitch also passed away the year we finally missed the playoffs so although I understand where you are coming from it can only be speculation. There is still a legitimate argument that Holland went for it until the wheels flew off. I do concede there is a possibility Illitch flat out ordered Holland to keep the streak going but I would prefer to see some sources of that before adopting it as cannon.

Sorry to take the thread off track though this is in dozens of other threads.

yeah, I think the possibility of that makes enough sense to not crucify someone’s career that was pretty stellar otherwise.

 

[Retire91]

yeah, I think the possibility of that makes enough sense to not crucify someone’s career that was pretty stellar otherwise.

He doesn't need me to validate his first half, history will validate that for him. His second half IMO should keep him out of the HOF. I know it won't but yes its that bad.

 

[vladdy16]

I think you guys are arriving at a glaring truth there. At some point during that past era, the idea of turning the Red Wings and Tigers into a cottage industry took root.

Some days I feel that Yzerman's lack of presence thus far means he's actively combating that(ie, the scouting department). Some days I think that him and the Illitches are completely on the same page in regards to just marketing tanking and lotto picks for the next half decade.

I don't think Holland comes out of the situation looking like a world beater, or someone with the most impressive gravity/character. But I do think the idea of him being a befuddled old man in a new era was a complete self perpetuating fantasy by some of our posters. Most GM's/Owners/Coaches have glaring weaknesses, and get too much credit otherwise, imo.

 

[vladdy16]

He doesn't need me to validate his first half, history will validate that for him. His second half IMO should keep him out of the HOF. I know it won't but yes its that bad.

Would you say the same for Babcock?

 

[Retire91]

Would you say the same for Babcock?

I feel like Babcock is its own different and independent story. I honestly think Babcock made Holland's teams better than they were on paper because his system utilizes his grinders effectively and Holland's stop gaps provided a lot of grinding opportunity. But the hockey he implemented to make that happen was some of the worst and most boring hockey I witnessed as a fan. He literally played a line of Abby - Datsyuk - Cleary at one point.

The only breaks in the mind numbing system were individual player skills on display like Datsyuk Nyquist etc... I am not a big fan of Babcock because of realgud style and I was ecstatic when we signed elsewhere and took his problems to another fan base. But in some respects I think Babcock spun some silk out of a sow's ear while he was here statistically speaking. Given what has come out since then I am even more happy he is gone.

At the end of the day the whole team was on Datsyuk and Zetterberg's back and what left that Kronwall could bring. I think those 3 players alone can put almost any team in the playoffs. So maybe we even give Babcock more credit than he deserved.

 

[vladdy16]

I feel like Babcock is its own different and independent story. I honestly think Babcock made Holland's teams better than they were on paper because his system utilizes his grinders effectively and Holland's stop gaps provided a lot of grinding opportunity. But the hockey he implemented to make that happen was some of the worst and most boring hockey I witnessed as a fan. He literally played a line of Abby - Datsyuk - Cleary at one point.

The only breaks in the mind numbing system were individual player skills on display like Datsyuk Nyquist etc... I am not a big fan of Babcock because of realgud style and I was ecstatic when we signed elsewhere and took his problems to another fan base. But in some respects I think Babcock spun some silk out of a sow's ear while he was here statistically speaking. Given what has come out since then I am even more happy he is gone.

At the end of the day the whole team was on Datsyuk and Zetterberg's back and what left that Kronwall could bring. I think those 3 players alone can put almost any team in the playoffs. So maybe we even give Babcock more credit than he deserved.

Interesting.

I see it the same mostly, but interpreted it in another way, in that once Babcock arrived, Hollands no. 1 skill of level headed delegation was thrown out the window, and he hopped in the passenger seat of a car that was going to burn through tread until it crashed an burned.

Players like Smith and Hudler are players I generally associate with Bowman/Holland, and players like Samuelsson/Cleary I associate with Babcock. So while I would see Holland as an undersized/pedigree priority/country club risk(the Dave Lewis era essentially), I don't associate him with being the triggerman behind the preference for all those neutral zone clogging wingers.

It was a frustrating era seeing those two blunt their own strengths to reach such brutally uncompelling compromises, year after year, post 2009. I realize for a lot of people around here that those were formative years in their Red Wings fandom, but man has it been a long time since I've been fully on board with a Red Wings team.

Either way, we probably tend to overestimate the importance/legacy of front office members. Afterall, that famous dynasty building braintrust of ours thought that it would be ideal to play out the 90's with Federov, Primeau, Yashin down the middle.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Oh my god.

Ken Holland is not getting kept out of the Hall of Fame

no. The back half of his career was not bad enough to invalidate two cup runs with the institution of a salary cap between.

I really think you just take the piss and throw out bonkers arguments because you are bored.

 

[Retire91]

Oh my god.

Ken Holland is not getting kept out of the Hall of Fame

no. The back half of his career was not bad enough to invalidate two cup runs with the institution of a salary cap between.

I really think you just take the piss and throw out bonkers arguments because you are bored.

Hahahaha I don't think for one second he won't get in the hall, heck the guy might even get another cup or two. Looking at it in player terms though could a player wet the bed an entire half of their career and still get in the hall? Would Hull still get in if he had 700 points? The depths of which he drove this team off the cliff can not be underscored enough and IMO it will forever be an * on his successful career.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Illitch also passed away the year we finally missed the playoffs so although I understand where you are coming from it can only be speculation. There is still a legitimate argument that Holland went for it until the wheels flew off. I do concede there is a possibility Illitch flat out ordered Holland to keep the streak going but I would prefer to see some sources of that before adopting it as cannon.

Sorry to take the thread off track though this is in dozens of other threads.

I believe Jimmy D confirmed it in one of his recent interviews, in terms of Holland and Devellano warning them the bottom would be pretty bad, but they continued their directive from ownership to keep the streak alive.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Hahahaha I don't think for one second he won't get in the hall, heck the guy might even get another cup or two. Looking at it in player terms though could a player wet the bed an entire half of their career and still get in the hall? Would Hull still get in if he had 700 points? The depths of which he drove this team off the cliff can not be underscored enough and IMO it will forever be an * on his successful career.

He didn't wet the bed for half his career. He went from being one of the best scouts in the 80s to the best executive in the 90s to one of the best executives in the 00s and eventually the system as it is designed to do caught up with him. If he wins with the Oilers he cements himself as a top 3 GM in the history of the sport, had he manged to rebuild a third time he would have been the greatest of all-time period so your expectations on him were pretty high with the Wings to continue that forward. In any event you're out to lunch on Holland and his stature within the game. Lou running Jersey into the ground and Bill Torrey running the Isles into the ground has done nothing to their reputation because people rightfully appreciate what they did before. Wish we had more of that in our fanbase but alas.

Holland is going into the HHOF as a builder because he has had a phenomenal hockey career. Having a bad 5 year period doesn't undo that.

The standards for getting in as a player versus a builder are very different anyway in terms of one of your points, but it is invalidated by your assertion that he has been terrible for half his career when that simply isn't the case.

I hope he does well in Edmonton, he gave me a lot of joy over the years and was a class act while doing it. Holland is one of the most important people in the history of our organization.

 

[2xJack]

Hahahaha I don't think for one second he won't get in the hall, heck the guy might even get another cup or two. Looking at it in player terms though could a player wet the bed an entire half of their career and still get in the hall? Would Hull still get in if he had 700 points? The depths of which he drove this team off the cliff can not be underscored enough and IMO it will forever be an * on his successful career.

The * on the front half of his term as GM is that the team won the Cup before he took over.

 

[jkutswings]

It's official. This thread is more off the rails than a hoverboard over water.

 

[2xJack]

He didn't wet the bed for half his career. He went from being one of the best scouts in the 80s to the best executive in the 90s to one of the best executives in the 00s and eventually the system as it is designed to do caught up with him. If he wins with the Oilers he cements himself as a top 3 GM in the history of the sport, had he manged to rebuild a third time he would have been the greatest of all-time period so your expectations on him were pretty high with the Wings to continue that forward. In any event you're out to lunch on Holland and his stature within the game. Lou running Jersey into the ground and Bill Torrey running the Isles into the ground has done nothing to their reputation because people rightfully appreciate what they did before. Wish we had more of that in our fanbase but alas.

Holland is going into the HHOF as a builder because he has had a phenomenal hockey career. Having a bad 5 year period doesn't undo that.

The standards for getting in as a player versus a builder are very different anyway in terms of one of your points, but it is invalidated by your assertion that he has been terrible for half his career when that simply isn't the case.

I hope he does well in Edmonton, he gave me a lot of joy over the years and was a class act while doing it. Holland is one of the most important people in the history of our organization.

LOL. This is bad revisionist history. Holland was the Western Canada scout and wasn't even on the job until 1985. So, who exactly did he land us that makes him a great scout? Sillinger? Most of our best picks of that era came out of Europe and were the work of Hakan Andersson. Several others were products of the OHL or USA. Our picks out of the WHL were generally poor. The best draft of the bunch was 1989, and you can see for yourself how little Holland had to do with that.

 

[DoMakc]

LOL. This is bad revisionist history. Holland was the Western Canada scout and wasn't even on the job until 1985. So, who exactly did he land us that makes him a great scout? Sillinger? Most of our best picks of that era came out of Europe and were the work of Hakan Andersson. Several others were products of the OHL or USA. Our picks out of the WHL were generally poor. The best draft of the bunch was 1989, and you can see for yourself how little Holland had to do with that.

Well it's kind of ironic to point out 1989 Draft, since at that point Holland was already director of amateur scouting. And I think you spelled Christer Rockström incorrectly.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

LOL. This is bad revisionist history. Holland was the Western Canada scout and wasn't even on the job until 1985. So, who exactly did he land us that makes him a great scout? Sillinger? Most of our best picks of that era came out of Europe and were the work of Hakan Andersson. Several others were products of the OHL or USA. Our picks out of the WHL were generally poor. The best draft of the bunch was 1989, and you can see for yourself how little Holland had to do with that.

Speaking of bad revisionist history I suggest you use that tricky thing called google and actually look this up...

He became our director of amateur scouting in 87-88. He did pretty much run our 89 draft as Neil Smith was defecting to the Rangers with Rockstrom. Similar to how Tyler Wright might have sat at the table but he didn't run the draft this past year. Make no mistake the big European tilt was approved at an ownership level and by Devellano in terms of what made that draft so great. They actually drafted Pavel Bure too in the 5th round and were told no by a league mistake...

Hakan Andersson was hired by Holland to take Rockstrom's place. Which really was the hallmark of Holland in terms of he surrounded himself with talent over the years, but fell on a couple harder choices when asked to continuously rebuild late in his tenure no doubt. His acquisition of front office talent wasn't a mistake though and something he learned from his mentor Jimmy D who learned it from Bill Torrey. He moved to Detroit from Western Canada to be groomed for leadership.

Now while people want to credit Jimmy D, Rockstrom, Neil Smith, Bowman so on and so forth and everyone plays a part, I am lead to believe by some that Holland kept getting promoted and gaining more prominence in the organization because what Ilitch was a moron not paying attention? After Bowman and Devellano's ill-fated Yzerman trade attempt guess what happens, Holland is made co-GM in 94-95. It could just be he was giving the best advice in the room continuously, you know how most of us get promoted and building solid teams around themselves that keep winning and gaining acclaim. There amount of mental gymnastics that have to take place to minimize the impact of Ken Holland is always interesting, some will still try I guess, none have made any sense...

 

[TheClap]

Holland also basically wrote the book on how to stay competitive in the cap era. Find your core and keep them, let the role guys go when they price themselves out, don't overpay for goaltending, and keep retooling the support through the draft and cheap cast-offs.

What he did post-lockout was masterful 2006-2009. The problem was they started sucking at drafting/development and started overpaying the Clearys, Ericcsons, Abbys, and Helms instead of letting them walk/moving them when they were due for raises. He wrote the book on how to win, a mold the Pens and Blackhawks used to win multiple Cups, but failed to follow his own advice.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

How's he doing in Edmonton?

 

[Bench]

How's he doing in Edmonton?

Holland or AA? It's a little foggy at the moment.

 

[2xJack]

Speaking of bad revisionist history I suggest you use that tricky thing called google and actually look this up...

He became our director of amateur scouting in 87-88. He did pretty much run our 89 draft as Neil Smith was defecting to the Rangers with Rockstrom. Similar to how Tyler Wright might have sat at the table but he didn't run the draft this past year. Make no mistake the big European tilt was approved at an ownership level and by Devellano in terms of what made that draft so great. They actually drafted Pavel Bure too in the 5th round and were told no by a league mistake...

Hakan Andersson was hired by Holland to take Rockstrom's place. Which really was the hallmark of Holland in terms of he surrounded himself with talent over the years, but fell on a couple harder choices when asked to continuously rebuild late in his tenure no doubt. His acquisition of front office talent wasn't a mistake though and something he learned from his mentor Jimmy D who learned it from Bill Torrey. He moved to Detroit from Western Canada to be groomed for leadership.

Now while people want to credit Jimmy D, Rockstrom, Neil Smith, Bowman so on and so forth and everyone plays a part, I am lead to believe by some that Holland kept getting promoted and gaining more prominence in the organization because what Ilitch was a moron not paying attention? After Bowman and Devellano's ill-fated Yzerman trade attempt guess what happens, Holland is made co-GM in 94-95. It could just be he was giving the best advice in the room continuously, you know how most of us get promoted and building solid teams around themselves that keep winning and gaining acclaim. There amount of mental gymnastics that have to take place to minimize the impact of Ken Holland is always interesting, some will still try I guess, none have made any sense...

So, still no answer as to what gems Holland found that make him a great scout?

Apologies for the Rockstrom / Andersson confusion. I poorly worded my initial reply. I meant that the best draft picks of the whole Holland era were the work of Andersson, namely Zetterberg and Datsyuk, among others. Although it is certainly true that the best picks of the late 80s were also out of Europe. Fedorov was a no-brainer. If not for the USSR he would have been an easy first rounder. Lidstrom, on the other hand, was a legendary pick. There were also others like Garpenlov that were very solid choices.

As an outsider, Holland's rise has the stench of him being nothing but a consensus builder and yes-man. I see no genius there. I see someone who was hand picked by ownership not because of their own ideas but because they had the ability to draw ideas out of others, and were malleable enough for ownership to put a final stamp on things. That's not HoF quality creds.

 

[2xJack]

Holland also basically wrote the book on how to stay competitive in the cap era. Find your core and keep them, let the role guys go when they price themselves out, don't overpay for goaltending, and keep retooling the support through the draft and cheap cast-offs.

What he did post-lockout was masterful 2006-2009. The problem was they started sucking at drafting/development and started overpaying the Clearys, Ericcsons, Abbys, and Helms instead of letting them walk/moving them when they were due for raises. He wrote the book on how to win, a mold the Pens and Blackhawks used to win multiple Cups, but failed to follow his own advice.

Poor drafting aside, Holland made many mistakes in the post-cap era. He held onto the core way too long. We're still paying Zetterberg. He had a real issue with overextending term. He also favored keeping team drafted success stories too much. He'd let Samuelsson or Lilja walk, but as you said he overpaid to keep Abdelkader and Helm. Holland was downright terrible at signing UFAs. There were some successes, like Rafalski, but more often than not they turned out like Weiss and Neilsen.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and the Wings didn't get to be a historically bad team overnight. This nightmare was built little by little. We're not paying for a big sin or two. We're paying for dozens of tiny sins spanning a period of multiple years.

 

[vladdy16]

So, still no answer as to what gems Holland found that make him a great scout?

He wasn't a scout, he was the GM. Hiring Andersson is a huge feather for his cap.

As an outsider, Holland's rise has the stench of him being nothing but a consensus builder and yes-man. I see no genius there. I see someone who was hand picked by ownership not because of their own ideas but because they had the ability to draw ideas out of others, and were malleable enough for ownership to put a final stamp on things. That's not HoF quality creds.

To me, that reads as pretty much the exact definition of an ideal NHL GM.