Wings sign MSU’s Taro Hirose

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
Hirose should be argument A-Z for the spots in the NHL being there for the taking if you're a young player and that they shouldn't be granted because someone looks okay in a role.

You have to bring something that makes the team NEED you. If you're a fourth liner and you are un-noticeable... that means you played well, but it's also not a strong argument for keeping you up or giving you more of a shot.
Your examples don't really apply. Your examples are not analogous. If any young player performs the same as any older player, I still prefer the younger because they're typically cheaper, at least have potential to improve, and have the possibility of staying longer. A better analogy would be if you had two cars that ran the same except one was 10 years older than the other. Sure, maybe *for now* they run the same. But I think you'd be wise to keep the newer car because chances are likely that it'll be in better condition from then on.

Your examples are all of someone doing something far beyond the norm. Of course that should mean a younger player replacing an older player. But how about when a younger player is just "even" with an older one?
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Your examples don't really apply. Your examples are not analogous. If any young player performs the same as any older player, I still prefer the younger because they're typically cheaper, at least have potential to improve, and have the possibility of staying longer. A better analogy would be if you had two cars that ran the same except one was 10 years older than the other. Sure, maybe *for now* they run the same. But I think you'd be wise to keep the newer car because chances are likely that it'll be in better condition from then on.

Your examples are all of someone doing something far beyond the norm. Of course that should mean a younger player replacing an older player. But how about when a younger player is just "even" with an older one?

Then the older one keeps the spot. Just like if you had a car loan or a mortgage, you would have to figure in the cost of getting rid of the old vehicle for the new one. Say you wanted to replace Abdelkader with Dominic Turgeon. You could either buy out Abby and have a portion of his cap hit for 8 years, you could try to bury him in the minors (which would rub the other players on the team the wrong way) and still have 3.3M of his cap hit on your books and add Turgeon's deal... so you're still paying 4.25M essentially.

So what on Earth do I give a crap about where the money goes? Why do I care if it goes 3.35M to Abby and whatever to Turgeon or all to Abby?

If the young player is just even with an older one, there is nothing that is your impetus for the move. And since I'm not materially improving my situation (because if there is a young player who is just at equilibrium for Justin Abdelkader, he's not going to be a difference maker at the NHL level), why am I making this move? Why am I looking to reshuffle the deck chairs?

Basically what I'm saying is that if a kid is worthy of an NHL spot, they'll make you move a guy out of the way. If he's just meh, then why are you putting him in? So you can have a lower average age? You need to be making the league a meritocracy. I know that you're going to kind of think/say "well if you just keep all the vets, that's a country club". But I just don't see the benefit in gifting a Teemu Pulkkinen a roster spot because he happens to be in his early 20s. Hell, realistically, I'd want a scenario where Dylan Larkin feels the pressure to keep pushing. That Zadina or Veleno or Rasmussen get a spot when they're actively pushing a guy out of a roster slot than getting it because "they're young and good prospects and more likely to be here for longer". ****ing prove it.
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,865
6,945
Then the older one keeps the spot. Just like if you had a car loan or a mortgage, you would have to figure in the cost of getting rid of the old vehicle for the new one. Say you wanted to replace Abdelkader with Dominic Turgeon. You could either buy out Abby and have a portion of his cap hit for 8 years, you could try to bury him in the minors (which would rub the other players on the team the wrong way) and still have 3.3M of his cap hit on your books and add Turgeon's deal... so you're still paying 4.25M essentially.

So what on Earth do I give a crap about where the money goes? Why do I care if it goes 3.35M to Abby and whatever to Turgeon or all to Abby?

If the young player is just even with an older one, there is nothing that is your impetus for the move. And since I'm not materially improving my situation (because if there is a young player who is just at equilibrium for Justin Abdelkader, he's not going to be a difference maker at the NHL level), why am I making this move? Why am I looking to reshuffle the deck chairs?

Basically what I'm saying is that if a kid is worthy of an NHL spot, they'll make you move a guy out of the way. If he's just meh, then why are you putting him in? So you can have a lower average age? You need to be making the league a meritocracy. I know that you're going to kind of think/say "well if you just keep all the vets, that's a country club". But I just don't see the benefit in gifting a Teemu Pulkkinen a roster spot because he happens to be in his early 20s. Hell, realistically, I'd want a scenario where Dylan Larkin feels the pressure to keep pushing. That Zadina or Veleno or Rasmussen get a spot when they're actively pushing a guy out of a roster slot than getting it because "they're young and good prospects and more likely to be here for longer". ****ing prove it.

this is the exact mentality that lead to Nyquist spending the first two months of the season in Grand Rapids in favor of Dan Cleary the same season he was the top goal scorer in the league from January on

"ties go to vets" except in practice the vets get a whole lot of rope and it takes like an order of magnitude more than a tie
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,470
8,335
****ing prove it.

I'm all for prospects proving themselves, but the rhetoric of "f***ing prove it" is so old and frustrating because it's not, and has never been, a level playing field. Someone like Abdelkader is given a full year to "f***ing prove it" that he still has anything in the tank that resembles productive qualities year over year over year and not a single time has he proven a damn thing. Yet the impetus still falls on the shoulders of the kids to "prove it". Meritocracy is great in theory, but what we have doesn't resemble anything close to meritocracy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ricky0034

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
I'm all for prospects proving themselves, but the rhetoric of "****ing prove it" is so old and frustrating because it's not, and has never been, a level playing field. Someone like Abdelkader is given a full year to "****ing prove it" that he still has anything in the tank that resembles productive qualities year over year over year and not a single time has he proven a damn thing. Yet the impetus still falls on the shoulders of the kids to "prove it". Meritocracy is great in theory, but what we have doesn't resemble anything close to meritocracy.

No, it isn't fair nor a level playing field. The veteran does have the advantage because you have to spend money to move them on.

If player A and player B are functionally equivalent and player A costs me significant draft assets, significant cap hit, or whatever to move on from, player B not only has to be younger or some other benefit, but functionally be superior, because at some point you're going to end up with the following

Give up Justin Abdelkader, a 1st or a 2nd or have a portion of his contract on the books for a ludicrous amount of time or deal a good young prospect and play Christoffer Ehn or keep Abby and lose Ehn.

When the guys you are speaking about are league average players, how on Earth does it make any sense to do things to clear out the entrenched veteran for them? I'm saying that if Abby and someone else are functionally equivalent (15-20 point a year guys), why would I ship out assets, plural, to play the younger guy? Get a Hirose who is an upgrade and I'm all in. But if it's shuffling the deck to give Frk or Pulkkinen or Nestrasil or whoever a chance, what the hell is the point?

And no, Abby isn't being given a year to prove it. He's the incumbent. The other guy has to show that he's an upgrade or that you can remove Abby from the equation for little, or you're not actually a better team for having dealt him away. It's similar to how in economics that sometimes it doesn't make sense to get rid of a division even if that division is losing you money because it would cost more or be a more unfavorable situation to get rid of it.
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,470
8,335
And no, Abby isn't being given a year to prove it. He's the incumbent. The other guy has to show that he's an upgrade or that you can remove Abby from the equation for little, or you're not actually a better team for having dealt him away. It's similar to how in economics that sometimes it doesn't make sense to get rid of a division even if that division is losing you money because it would cost more or be a more unfavorable situation to get rid of it.

This right here is the glaring flaw in your logic. The incumbent mindset is detrimental because it preaches continuity in spite of progress. Abdelkader is being granted a position why? It's not because of his play. You can't preach meritocracy and then hold people to different standards. That's f***ing stupid.

This team would have been noticeably better had they decided to waive Abby or make him a permanent healthy scratch and allowed someone else to step in and play. But they didn't. And why didn't they? You tell me a real reason as to why Abdelkader is allowed to lace up his skates on a nightly basis over other players in the organization capable of producing more. Abdelkader wouldn't be able to produce in Grand Rapids. The reason why Abdelkader is around is because the team refuses to eat a bad contract and will preach that he has some intangible value that the fans don't get to see off the ice. Bullshit. You don't have to spend a single additional penny to put Abdelkader in the press box on a night in, night out basis. He's a sunk cost. I'm not advocating paying to get rid of him. I'm just not willing to hold back better hockey players and dress someone with zero f***ing value.

You want to preach a "prove it" culture, that applies to everyone across the board equally. I'm not here for prideful petting of egos, I'm not here for historical performance. Someone like Abdelkader has more value in not being on the ice than he does being on it, and I have to pay him either way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ealong59

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
This right here is the glaring flaw in your logic. The incumbent mindset is detrimental because it preaches continuity in spite of progress. Abdelkader is being granted a position why? It's not because of his play. You can't preach meritocracy and then hold people to different standards. That's ****ing stupid.

This team would have been noticeably better had they decided to waive Abby or make him a permanent healthy scratch and allowed someone else to step in and play. But they didn't. And why didn't they? You tell me a real reason as to why Abdelkader is allowed to lace up his skates on a nightly basis over other players in the organization capable of producing more. Abdelkader wouldn't be able to produce in Grand Rapids. The reason why Abdelkader is around is because the team refuses to eat a bad contract and will preach that he has some intangible value that the fans don't get to see off the ice. Bull****. You don't have to spend a single additional penny to put Abdelkader in the press box on a night in, night out basis. He's a sunk cost. I'm not advocating paying to get rid of him. I'm just not willing to hold back better hockey players and dress someone with zero ****ing value.

You want to preach a "prove it" culture, that applies to everyone across the board equally. I'm not here for prideful petting of egos, I'm not here for historical performance. Someone like Abdelkader has more value in not being on the ice than he does being on it, and I have to pay him either way.

Where are these better players?

Zadina doesn't count because the Wings aren't trying to give him bottom 6 minutes.
Veleno isn't ready.
Berggren isn't ready.
Givani Smith probably won't ever be ready.
Svechnikov is hurt
Ehn was already here, and he's replacement level.
DLR was already here and he's replacement level.
Frk was here, was replacement level and was moved on.

Where are these players who are BETTER than Justin Abdelkader?

You want to attack my logic... what makes Christoffer Ehn a better use of ice time than Justin Abdelkader? Dominic Turgeon? Dylan Sadowy? Axel Holmstrom? Dominic Shine? The Wings had a bunch of benders in GR as well. Guys aren't being held back.

I mean, I get that it's easy to **** on Abby. But let's not act like the Wings in 18-19 or even 19-20 have this killers row of prospects ready to come up.

Also, how. How would the team be noticeably better if they replaced Justin Abdelkader with Dominic Turgeon? You tell me a reason why any rando kid in GR should be given NHL minutes and provide proof that they wouldn't get ****ing eviscerated at the big level... not including end of the year this year when teams start taking the foot off of the accelerator a little bit. I have proof that you can't go with a bunch of kids. Oodles of it.

Edmonton Oilers from about 2009-current.
The Wings D when their top 4D all went out with injuries.
Buffalo when Tim Murray was running the show.

It's not anything about pride or egos or whatever... if you can't demonstrably be better than a guy who in your words has ZERO VALUE, why the **** should I give you that guys time?

Also, in 17-18, Abby had 35 points. A guy that most everyone would have been interested in signing was Joonas Donskoi from SJ. Guess how many points he had in 17-18. (32 is the answer). And at 3.9x4, he would have quite literally had the same damn contract as Abby. But because he's not been here and he'd be a new toy, that would have been a savvy move whereas Justin Abdelkader should just jump into the sun.

It makes me sick to have to defend him because I think Abby is awful, but he's not "the team would literally be better without him" bad.
 

Ghost of Ethan Hunt

The Official Ghost of Space Ghosts Monkey
Jun 23, 2018
8,733
5,092
Top Secret Moon Base

So whenever Seider makes the team he can have his #53? Though I'd prefer he take his other#, 28. Cholo already has 21 so that's not an option.

iu


iu



iu
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
Then the older one keeps the spot. Just like if you had a car loan or a mortgage, you would have to figure in the cost of getting rid of the old vehicle for the new one. Say you wanted to replace Abdelkader with Dominic Turgeon. You could either buy out Abby and have a portion of his cap hit for 8 years, you could try to bury him in the minors (which would rub the other players on the team the wrong way) and still have 3.3M of his cap hit on your books and add Turgeon's deal... so you're still paying 4.25M essentially.

So what on Earth do I give a crap about where the money goes? Why do I care if it goes 3.35M to Abby and whatever to Turgeon or all to Abby?

If the young player is just even with an older one, there is nothing that is your impetus for the move. And since I'm not materially improving my situation (because if there is a young player who is just at equilibrium for Justin Abdelkader, he's not going to be a difference maker at the NHL level), why am I making this move? Why am I looking to reshuffle the deck chairs?

Basically what I'm saying is that if a kid is worthy of an NHL spot, they'll make you move a guy out of the way. If he's just meh, then why are you putting him in? So you can have a lower average age? You need to be making the league a meritocracy. I know that you're going to kind of think/say "well if you just keep all the vets, that's a country club". But I just don't see the benefit in gifting a Teemu Pulkkinen a roster spot because he happens to be in his early 20s. Hell, realistically, I'd want a scenario where Dylan Larkin feels the pressure to keep pushing. That Zadina or Veleno or Rasmussen get a spot when they're actively pushing a guy out of a roster slot than getting it because "they're young and good prospects and more likely to be here for longer". ****ing prove it.

I want a guy to get a spot when he can play.
And I want him to have a spot which helps him thrive.

Playing scoring line wingers on a line with Glendening and Miller, for example, is a great way to kill a scoring line winger's career.

Stop, for a moment, and think about how much better off Detroit would have been these last 4-5 years if Mike Babcock didn't force Abdelkader on Datsyuk's line.

Maybe, in 2012-13, Datsyuk doesn't go AWOL against the Hawks.
Guys like Abdelkader and Helm would never have accumulated the stats that earned them the salaries/term they got.
Instead, at best, they'd have gotten Glendening deals. Less than $2M. 3-4 years.
And you know what? They'd be worth it. They'd be looked at as valuable, depth grinders who do useful things.

At the other end of the spectrum, guys like Jurco and Pulkkinen, who have good numbers with scoring line players, almost certainly wouldn't have totally faded the way they did.


That's one reason why I support the signing of Filppula. When Zadina comes to the NHL, he's going to need a center. A pass-first center.
And Filppula fits that nicely. I can see Zadina on line 2 or line 3 for a year, playing with Flip. And then, hopefully, Veleno taking that job.

But that's the other part of the Flip deal that makes sense. It's 2 years. Precisely because Veleno is going to need a spot.

So it's not one way or the other. It's a little of both.
Players have to earn their jobs. But teams also have to make room to give them the opportunity and role they need to grow.

As for Abdelkader - he has ZERO used to this team except on the penalty kill.
He was one of the worst forwards in the NHL last year. Period.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FMichael

FMichael

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
5,041
4,942
Wisconsin
Hirose is probably the most intriguing player that I'm looking forward to watching this fall...Saw him live at the LCA this past spring against the Devils, and I gotta say - he could very well be our 'poor man's' Mitch Marner as a playmaking winger...Guy is like an owl - his head is swiveling all over looking for the smart play to make, and keeping his options open be it with his quick passing, or ability to carry the puck in to the other teams end of the ice.

He may very well be that diamond in the rough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: saska sault

Ezekial

Cheap Pizza, Bad Hockey
Sponsor
Nov 22, 2015
22,395
14,894
Chicago
during the Prospect Tourney iirc they said it was a shot at the Leafs, having last won in '67. RE: your "factoid" post earlier, you can download the Wings Media guide. I did so ~3 years ago, really cool stuff.
I remember that now, thanks.

I was making a really bad joke, I remember when Kobe had to sell more jerseys after going to court some people said he chose 24 to 1-up MJ.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,756
4,569
Cleveland
I want a guy to get a spot when he can play.
And I want him to have a spot which helps him thrive.

So it's not one way or the other. It's a little of both.
Players have to earn their jobs. But teams also have to make room to give them the opportunity and role they need to grow.

As for Abdelkader - he has ZERO used to this team except on the penalty kill.
He was one of the worst forwards in the NHL last year. Period.

Have to point out that for the first ~50 games of the season, Gator was getting 16 minutes a night, 5th most among forwards. From Feb 1st on that number fell to around 13:44 toi/g. Hirose and Zadina both averaged over 15 minutes a night in that span, and we saw bumps to the ice times for AA, Bertuzzi, and Mantha.

I think TSweeney is pretty on point with this. None of us are fans of Gator's contract, or his play lately. He was legitimately awful...but so have arguably the bulk of the Wings, and there just haven't been guys forcing Gator down the lineup. The second half of last year, we finally saw a bit of that with some guys stepping up and some others stepping in. Hopefully, we see it continue up front and start to happen on the blueline with Hronek, Cholo, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Zetterberg Era

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
Have to point out that for the first ~50 games of the season, Gator was getting 16 minutes a night, 5th most among forwards. From Feb 1st on that number fell to around 13:44 toi/g. Hirose and Zadina both averaged over 15 minutes a night in that span, and we saw bumps to the ice times for AA, Bertuzzi, and Mantha.

I think TSweeney is pretty on point with this. None of us are fans of Gator's contract, or his play lately. He was legitimately awful...but so have arguably the bulk of the Wings, and there just haven't been guys forcing Gator down the lineup. The second half of last year, we finally saw a bit of that with some guys stepping up and some others stepping in. Hopefully, we see it continue up front and start to happen on the blueline with Hronek, Cholo, etc.

Are you suggesting that Abdelkader's icetime decreased because Blashill was rewarding AA or Mantha or Bert for their fine play?
I think that's completely false, Winger98.
They got more time because the Wings traded Nyquist and because several Red Wings forwards were shutdown. Including Abdelkader, if memory serves.

Abdelkader... my god. He had a stretch last year....
40 games 0 goals. 8 assists. -12
Coach still played him over 15:20 a night in his last five games. Woof.


The only thing preventing these kids from stepping up earlier is Blashill.
With Hakstoll gone, he's got to be the worst coach in the NHL.
 

Gniwder

Registered User
Oct 12, 2009
14,129
7,488
Bellingham, WA
Are you suggesting that Abdelkader's icetime decreased because Blashill was rewarding AA or Mantha or Bert for their fine play?
I think that's completely false, Winger98.
They got more time because the Wings traded Nyquist and because several Red Wings forwards were shutdown. Including Abdelkader, if memory serves.

Abdelkader... my god. He had a stretch last year....
40 games 0 goals. 8 assists. -12
Coach still played him over 15:20 a night in his last five games. Woof.


The only thing preventing these kids from stepping up earlier is Blashill.
With Hakstoll gone, he's got to be the worst coach in the NHL.
I don't think Hirose has played with Abby yet. IIRC, Abby was on IR before Hirose signed, Hirose started on a line with Vanek and Nielsen, then got bumped up to AA's line playing with LGD then Helm. Blash didn't really have a choice but to give the top 3 lines lots of TOI because they were playing Witter as 7D, and double shifting AA and Larkin on the 4th line.

I hope Abby gets playing time appropriate to his level of play. If he plays like he did last year that means the press box.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
12,078
Tampere, Finland
They got more time because the Wings traded Nyquist and because several Red Wings forwards were shutdown. Including Abdelkader, if memory serves.

Abdelkader... my god. He had a stretch last year....
40 games 0 goals. 8 assists. -12
Coach still played him over 15:20 a night in his last five games. Woof.

The only thing preventing these kids from stepping up earlier is Blashill.
With Hakstoll gone, he's got to be the worst coach in the NHL.

Hmm...

Tanking team + struggling players getting more ice-time, when it's time to lose. A SURPRISE ! :)

That's not bad coaching, it has happened in every team during the years. Obvious, but hidden secret. Blashill is a good coach, when he has an incentive to be that one. But when he doesn't have an incentive to win, he just operates differently.

They don't talk about it, but it's just obvious.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->