Wings Sign Mo Seider to 3 year ELC

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,771
8,326
Normal development and experience means he would likely see more icetime. Problem is he wouldn't be guaranteed big minutes in Grand Rapids either.

Yeah but its still a mens pro leaue where as the AHL is a developmental pro league. Number of veterans per game is limited. I'm sure the wings know a lot more about thesituation than any of us but normal development says more ice time but what if Mannheims top 4 D are still their top 4 D and he only gets 2 more mins a game? I'm almost positive he would play more than 14-15 mins a game in Grand Rapids. Mannhwim is a powerhouse so playing a youngster who won be around another season anyways is probably low on their priority list
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ratatoskr

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,771
8,326
If anybody is bored enough to crunch the numbers, I would be curious to see how Burns and Karlsson compare to each of Coffee, Lidstrom, and Bourque when adjusting for league-wide goals per game. I would guess that would boost Nick, having played several years in the dead puck era, versus recent years of better scoring (let alone the 6-5 nonsense of the 80's).

Karlsson and Burns have always finished higher in the scoring race in their best years. I think Karlsson was 5th in league scoring once. Adjusting for league wide goals per game might help Lidstrom out but he was never quite that high end offensively. A way better overall dman because he brought comparable (slightly lower at absolute peak) scoring while blowing everyone out defensively year in and year out
 
  • Like
Reactions: jkutswings

obey86

Registered User
Jun 9, 2009
8,013
1,274
Normal development and experience means he would likely see more icetime. Problem is he wouldn't be guaranteed big minutes in Grand Rapids either.

I'd imagine if the Wings send him to GR, they are going to get him guaranteed big minutes.
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
15,029
7,237
If anybody is bored enough to crunch the numbers, I would be curious to see how Burns and Karlsson compare to each of Coffee, Lidstrom, and Bourque when adjusting for league-wide goals per game. I would guess that would boost Nick, having played several years in the dead puck era, versus recent years of better scoring (let alone the 6-5 nonsense of the 80's).

this is just a very crude measurement that doesn't take games played and such into account and only takes the sum of what each of the seasons they played in were and averages them out but Lidstrom actually played in a higher scoring era overall than Burns and Karlsson

Lidstrom: 2.91 goals per game
Burns: 2.82 goals per game
Karlsson: 2.80 goals per game

the dead puck eras scoring levels relative to the decade or so leading up to the past 2 years are pretty overstated in general,there's a way bigger gap between the early 90s when Lidstrom got his start and anything Karlsson has ever played under than there is between say 2002 and 2015
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,868
14,952
Sweden
Wings AGM Ryan Martin is also the GM for GR, so you can expect Seider to get playing time if he winds up there. Not concerned about playing time at all.
I don't think anyone is guaranteed icetime, it comes down to what the coach wants. We've seen a guy like Mantha get pretty limited minutes down there for example. Seider SHOULD be able to outplay most of the guys there and earn minutes, but there is some strong competition from guys that are older, especially if Cholowski starts down there.
Not sure how Zadina's icetime looked but I seem to recall he didn't always get a ton?
 

obey86

Registered User
Jun 9, 2009
8,013
1,274
I don't think anyone is guaranteed icetime, it comes down to what the coach wants. We've seen a guy like Mantha get pretty limited minutes down there for example. Seider SHOULD be able to outplay most of the guys there and earn minutes, but there is some strong competition from guys that are older, especially if Cholowski starts down there.
Not sure how Zadina's icetime looked but I seem to recall he didn't always get a ton?

They have much more control of his ice time in GR than they do anywhere else.
 

Hugh Mongusbig

Registered User
Mar 7, 2012
950
454
I get the argument, I am in the AHL/NHL and DEL camp (excluding placement on a super team or Saginaw). The player would have to buy-in in though in a big way. Hronek did play sparingly for the Czech league team and had considerably more time with his U20 teams effort in his draft year. I am also sure the fact he was owned by Saginaw with Draper and Devellano as part owners helps us a great deal in terms of that discussion. He didn't share the attributes of Seider either. Who is far superior to Hronek at similar points in terms of his physical development. I mean he would be one of the most solid guys in the OHL if he drops in, I don't think it will happen, but they might have the bad habits talk there internally when they evaluate that option.

Draper coaches his kids Little Caesars team. It's Ozzy that is part owner of the Saginaw Spirit club, along with Devellano, Garber, Goslin, and Bordeaux. Not that it changes anything....
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Zetterberg Era

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,868
14,952
Sweden
They have much more control of his ice time in GR than they do anywhere else.
Well, do we want "control" over his icetime? Or do we want him to actually earn the icetime? I think only in juniors would he be guaranteed big minutes.
It all comes down to camp. If he looks like someone that's borderline ready to be an NHLer, GR is probably the best place for him.
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,499
8,413
Well, do we want "control" over his icetime? Or do we want him to actually earn the icetime? I think only in juniors would he be guaranteed big minutes.
It all comes down to camp. If he looks like someone that's borderline ready to be an NHLer, GR is probably the best place for him.

We want 150% want control. "Earning" his ice time is some bullshit GM/coach speak that is used to keep the true decision making process private. Controlling his ice time doesn't mean that we just give him 25 minutes each night right off the bat because we want to, but it does mean that we determine what is the appropriate level of challenge to place on his shoulders.

Things we can control in Grand Rapids that are uncontrollable with Mannheim would be: quality of competition, overall ice time, situational ice time (powerplay and/or penalty kill), and timeline of progression. In Mannheim, there is nothing to stop their coach from casting him as a 3rd pairing defenseman with no powerplay time for a full season again. It's been suggested the way they operate in the DEL and how roles are awarded is tied to time served. In Grand Rapids, we would at least have the ability to control the minor variables to challenge him the right amount, and to adjust the variables on the fly as he develops and becomes more comfortable.
 

HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
3,664
2,036
Toronto
So from watching some DEL games, here are my new impressions of Seider:
Offensively he's better than I thought at the draft. He jumps into the rush really well, and is always looking to. He reacts to turnovers really quickly, but rarely puts himself too far out of position looking for offence. He's always ready to go but doesn't force it. Skates well through the NZ, and can carry the puck or hit a teammate up ice with a good pass. I think controlled exits/entries are going to be big strengths.

In the offensive zone he tends to hang pretty high on the blue-line-mostly coming deep on zone entries or to stuff a breakout along the boards. He'll walk the blueline or drift into the high slot to find a good shooting angle, but he could stand to try more. You can tell he likes to contribute offensively but takes his responsibilities seriously.

His defensive game is less developed than I thought though. He is strong and skates well enough that he doesn't get beat easily in one-on-ones, furthermore he clears the front of the net well. He has the bad habit a lot of young d men have where he gets sort of lost in between his net and the boards too much. He'll abandon his coverage to try to hit someone or will pursue a forward to the wall, but get caught deciding whether to retreat back or pursue if they pull away. I think this is actually the weakest area of his game right now. He's even better at getting involved in the offense than I had thought, especially on the rush, but he's not the steady, already defensively developed TWD I thought either.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,235
14,742
We want 150% want control. "Earning" his ice time is some bull**** GM/coach speak that is used to keep the true decision making process private. Controlling his ice time doesn't mean that we just give him 25 minutes each night right off the bat because we want to, but it does mean that we determine what is the appropriate level of challenge to place on his shoulders.

Things we can control in Grand Rapids that are uncontrollable with Mannheim would be: quality of competition, overall ice time, situational ice time (powerplay and/or penalty kill), and timeline of progression. In Mannheim, there is nothing to stop their coach from casting him as a 3rd pairing defenseman with no powerplay time for a full season again. It's been suggested the way they operate in the DEL and how roles are awarded is tied to time served. In Grand Rapids, we would at least have the ability to control the minor variables to challenge him the right amount, and to adjust the variables on the fly as he develops and becomes more comfortable.

I'm not sure we can control what the coach does to that extent. The coach is going to have to have some autonomy with roster decisions, and ultimately they are coaching to keep their job and succeed, not just appease the front office.

But I agree that ensuring a role for Seider is imperative. My issue is, they have talked a lot about Lindstrom coming over and then you have McIlrath under contract. Plus you have Saarijarvi. So I have a hard time seeing him get a meaningful role on the right side of the defense in GR.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Zetterberg Era

Kingpin794

Smart A** In A Jersey
Apr 25, 2012
3,473
1,876
209 at the Van
I'm not sure we can control what the coach does to that extent. The coach is going to have to have some autonomy with roster decisions, and ultimately they are coaching to keep their job and succeed, not just appease the front office.

But I agree that ensuring a role for Seider is imperative. My issue is, they have talked a lot about Lindstrom coming over and then you have McIlrath under contract. Plus you have Saarijarvi. So I have a hard time seeing him get a meaningful role on the right side of the defense in GR.

If he comes to GR, there's no reason to be playing him behind Saarijarvi and McIlrath. Neither of them are anything amazing and are not really NHL players long term. Idk why you'd play a slow enforcer and a meh bottom pair AHL defenseman over a future top 4 dman.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,235
14,742
If he comes to GR, there's no reason to be playing him behind Saarijarvi and McIlrath. Neither of them are anything amazing and are not really NHL players long term. Idk why you'd play a slow enforcer and a meh bottom pair AHL defenseman over a future top 4 dman.

Because it’s possible that McIlrath is a better hockey player at 27 than Seider is at 18. Coaches typically give the most minutes to the best players.

That’s the problem here. What is best for Seider and his development is not what the coach may opt to do.
 

Rzombo4 prez

Registered User
May 17, 2012
6,027
2,735
Because it’s possible that McIlrath is a better hockey player at 27 than Seider is at 18. Coaches typically give the most minutes to the best players.

That’s the problem here. What is best for Seider and his development is not what the coach may opt to do.

And we have a winner. Simon moves up the coaching ranks by winning games, not developing Seider. He will absolutely play McIlrath over Seider if he thinks it gives him the best shot at winning.
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,499
8,413
And we have a winner. Simon moves up the coaching ranks by winning games, not developing Seider. He will absolutely play McIlrath over Seider if he thinks it gives him the best shot at winning.

But playing McIlrath over Seider doesn't mean that Seider isn't getting the appropriate challenge to develop. And if there is a point where the appropriate challenge for Seider is to play over McIlrath, chances are he has developing to be more impactful than McIlrath.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,235
14,742
And we have a winner. Simon moves up the coaching ranks by winning games, not developing Seider. He will absolutely play McIlrath over Seider if he thinks it gives him the best shot at winning.

This is exactly what I was going to write. You have multiple people with different self-interests going on here. AHL coaches want to be NHL coaches. You get to the NHL by winning games, not doing a great job handing out minutes to prospects.

Plus hockey coaches seem to by and large be conservative in nature. They will go with the low-risk option far more often than not.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Zetterberg Era

Kingpin794

Smart A** In A Jersey
Apr 25, 2012
3,473
1,876
209 at the Van
Because it’s possible that McIlrath is a better hockey player at 27 than Seider is at 18. Coaches typically give the most minutes to the best players.

That’s the problem here. What is best for Seider and his development is not what the coach may opt to do.

It's possible that McIlrath is better than Seider right now, but it's not likely which is why even if he wants to play the best, he'll probably still pick Seider.
 

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,771
8,326
I'm not sure we can control what the coach does to that extent. The coach is going to have to have some autonomy with roster decisions, and ultimately they are coaching to keep their job and succeed, not just appease the front office.

But I agree that ensuring a role for Seider is imperative. My issue is, they have talked a lot about Lindstrom coming over and then you have McIlrath under contract. Plus you have Saarijarvi. So I have a hard time seeing him get a meaningful role on the right side of the defense in GR.

Thats all stuff that will shake out in camp though as well. They'll be able to get a good read on McIlrath and Saarjarvi compared to Seider and see if he could handle some of their minutes. Also just because those guys are right handed doesnt mean they necessarily play the right side. In his role and with his experience I could see McIlrath sliding over to the left side and actually playing on a pairing with Seider.

At this point I highly doubt Saarjarvi is taking minutes from Seider. Hes just not that good.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,980
11,620
Ft. Myers, FL
Coaches aren't lying when they talk about earning ice time and trust. I think at times people forget the daily nature of these relationships.

We might disagree with it but there is a reason coaches do mirror each other in a lot of ways. On top of the promotion angle I would actually emphasize these guys are ruthless winners and the most competitive people you're likely to meet. They want to win each time the puck is dropped so learning on the job doesn't happen in the same way Joe on his couch is hoping.
 

StNickFan

Registered User
Dec 3, 2014
172
38
Ohio
I would like for others to chime in so I can get peoples opinion for this question.

So let’s say Seider tops out as a very solid #2, would you consider that a disappointment, a okay pick or a success?

I’ll also add a second question, say Hronek turns into a bonafide stud #1 and that keeps Seider on the second pairing. Do you think that would hamper people’s views of Seider?
 

HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
3,664
2,036
Toronto
I would like for others to chime in so I can get peoples opinion for this question.

So let’s say Seider tops out as a very solid #2, would you consider that a disappointment, a okay pick or a success?

I’ll also add a second question, say Hronek turns into a bonafide stud #1 and that keeps Seider on the second pairing. Do you think that would hamper people’s views of Seider?
I would consider the pick a big success if Seider is a solid #2. 1st pairing: big win, second pairing: win, third pairing or worse: disappointment

If Hronek pushes him down the lineup I'm sure that would hurt the perception of him somewhat, but I imagine pretty minimally as long as he looks like a 1st pairing D on the second pairing. It would probably affect his repitation around the league more than with us.
 

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,771
8,326
I would like for others to chime in so I can get peoples opinion for this question.

So let’s say Seider tops out as a very solid #2, would you consider that a disappointment, a okay pick or a success?

I’ll also add a second question, say Hronek turns into a bonafide stud #1 and that keeps Seider on the second pairing. Do you think that would hamper people’s views of Seider?

Very solid number 2? If anyone says thats anything other than a win theyre out to lunch. A solid, top pairing D is a win anywhere in the draft except maybe 1st overall
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad