GDT: Wings @ Rangers

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,756
4,569
Cleveland
There is caring about the long term health of the franchise and then there is being an *******.

I get wanting the best odds... but even if they were to win out (which they won't) but even if they were, they've got damn good odds at a top 5 pick.

If the people decrying the tank cared about the long term health of the franchise, they wouldn't have been trying to run Howard out of town on a rail for a bag of pucks. That's the one thing about the "tank" commanders I dislike. It isn't somehow more forward thinking to want to lose every game. It is lazy and pinning your hopes on a lottery. I mean, yes, try to get the best odds you can... but losing to get 100 ping pong balls instead of 90 or 95 should not be the end goal. I like what they're doing with Hirose and Kuffner and showing Zadina and Rasmussen what they need to do to be future players. The Wings need to develop a plan that doesn't rely on getting a #1OA pick. If it happens, fantastic, but if you rely on winning the lottery or winning a top 3 pick, that's not a foundation I want to be building my team on. Control what you can control and let getting Hughes instead of Turcotte or Byram just happen.

Yeah, I think I lean towards this. As a fan, I want to see the Wings win. It sucks to lose, especially this much. But for the good of the team, I'm not even sure the win/loss matters right now. This team is going to lose a lot of games regardless, and they are going to be picking pretty high in the lotto. What I want to see is the Wings working hard out there. They're going to screw up, they're just going to get flat outplayed some nights because the talent level isn't there, but they can't throw in the towel on the season. And the same goes for management. You might lose, but you can't give up. Especially if we're working kids into the lineup and want them to be worth anything. If they learn to just pack it in when the chips are down, they are never going to be the sort of player we want around - regardless of talent level.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,756
4,569
Cleveland
Every thing that is/was being said about why people justified the dislike of AA is text book Mantha like to the letter. Lazy uninspired, slow to come back. floats around in the ozone looking for gifts, soft as butter. So much good can be seen is short spurts it just gets under my skin. Remember how good he was the first few games he came back this year? Like a totally different player.

Mantha's had a few stretches this year where he seemed to really get it. Hoping we see him progress next year how AA seems to have taken that step this season.
 
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Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
think he put himself in the crosshairs with how opinionated he always appeared to be publicly.
For me, and I was a big fan of his from the start, it was his potential versus his reality.

I judge players contextually. If you're getting paid like a top6 as a UFA, you better be as useful/productive as one or I'm gonna give you shit. If you have the tools to be a top6 guy then you better perform or I'm gonna give you shit.

The guy obviously has an extremely good nose for scoring. 30 goals is nothing to sneeze at. He's got ridiculous speed. Pretty decent hands. Good shot. He's shown good vision and passing as well. He could be a star. Maybe he still can be. But that's why I criticized him and I'm guessing the same is true of others. No one calls out Christopher Ehn. We know he's not that kind of guy.
 
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Larkin2AA

Registered User
Apr 21, 2016
768
763
Rochester Hills, MI
Mantha was not awful. He could use a little hustle but he made some excellent plays.

He lacks effort and at times it seems like he doesn't want to be on the ice. He gives up on plays way too easily for how big he is and its frustrating to watch. Rasmussen wins a clean faceoff (or whoever it was near the middle of the 3rd) right to Mantha and he lost the puck, so instead of making a play to get it back he throws his head back and rolls his eyes. I don't get it. This just wasn't his year. I am hoping he comes back strong next year.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
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I mean, that’s one of the few things that FKH has said that I don’t disagree with. It could be a good time to look at dealing AA. You might actually be able to use him as a strong piece in a deal for a good to very good D instead of him being a sweetener like he was when he’d loaf around.

I mean, unless you think he’s a part of a successful core, he should be available for dealing. Frankly everyone but Larkin should prob be listened on.
He is most certainly a part of "successful core." I wouldn't trade him for anybody outside of League's top 15 point finishers.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,851
8,576
He is most certainly a part of "successful core." I wouldn't trade him for anybody outside of League's top 15 point finishers.
Several months ago I suggested that Detroit package Mantha for Colton Parayko. The majority felt that Mantha was part of a successful core, and at a minimum we should wait and see, then maybe reevaluate later.

At the moment I'm wishing that deal was done back then.

If you're convinced AA will continue to develop and mentally mature, then I understand wanting to keep him. But I would have zero problem with listening to offers, and if a team desperate for scoring offers a sweetheart of a deal, I'd pull the trigger. (For example: Say Carolina drops a few games and misses the playoffs. Then next year at the deadline they're right back on the bubble for a Wild Card. If I can use AA to land a good defenseman from them, thumbs up.) As useful as AA can be, a quality defenseman is even harder to find, at least for the Wings.
 
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odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,033
881
Canton Mi
There is caring about the long term health of the franchise and then there is being an *******.

I get wanting the best odds... but even if they were to win out (which they won't) but even if they were, they've got damn good odds at a top 5 pick.

If the people decrying the tank cared about the long term health of the franchise, they wouldn't have been trying to run Howard out of town on a rail for a bag of pucks. That's the one thing about the "tank" commanders I dislike. It isn't somehow more forward thinking to want to lose every game. It is lazy and pinning your hopes on a lottery. I mean, yes, try to get the best odds you can... but losing to get 100 ping pong balls instead of 90 or 95 should not be the end goal. I like what they're doing with Hirose and Kuffner and showing Zadina and Rasmussen what they need to do to be future players. The Wings need to develop a plan that doesn't rely on getting a #1OA pick. If it happens, fantastic, but if you rely on winning the lottery or winning a top 3 pick, that's not a foundation I want to be building my team on. Control what you can control and let getting Hughes instead of Turcotte or Byram just happen.

Look at the past decades worth of cup winners who doesn't have at least 1 top 3 pick if not multiples? We go on a winning streak to close the season just like last year and 1-2 teams jump us at the draft and once again pushed outta the top 5.

And for the record I have no idea why people are so enamored with Zadina. Much too early to be called a bust. But has not ripped the ahl to shreds, got what 1 point if that in his 9 game stint? Game is favoring speedy players and skating is a problem for him. Doesn't look good as a outlook would appear why he fell was justified is what I am saying.

Without Howard playing hot early first half of the year we would be a lock for top 4 without question. Maybe that's why the tank commanders want him gone? Because like it or not we need more than likely 2-3 top 3 picks to turn the team around.
 

TCNorthstars

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
4,281
1,796
Lansing area, MI
Look at the past decades worth of cup winners who doesn't have at least 1 top 3 pick if not multiples? We go on a winning streak to close the season just like last year and 1-2 teams jump us at the draft and once again pushed outta the top 5.

And for the record I have no idea why people are so enamored with Zadina. Much too early to be called a bust. But has not ripped the ahl to shreds, got what 1 point if that in his 9 game stint? Game is favoring speedy players and skating is a problem for him. Doesn't look good as a outlook would appear why he fell was justified is what I am saying.

Without Howard playing hot early first half of the year we would be a lock for top 4 without question. Maybe that's why the tank commanders want him gone? Because like it or not we need more than likely 2-3 top 3 picks to turn the team around.

He had 1 goal and 2 assists in his call-up.
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,470
8,335
Okay I was wrong must have missed his production games then.

Andrei Svechnikov finished his first 9 games in the NHL with 2 goals and 3 assists. Jesperi Kotkaniemi finished with 0 goals and 4 assists. Just because the Wings opted a a different route for Zadina’s first year doesn’t mean he’s any less of a promising prospect than he was when he was drafted.

I think it’s way way way too early to have the discussion on Zadina.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
Look at the past decades worth of cup winners who doesn't have at least 1 top 3 pick if not multiples? We go on a winning streak to close the season just like last year and 1-2 teams jump us at the draft and once again pushed outta the top 5.

And for the record I have no idea why people are so enamored with Zadina. Much too early to be called a bust. But has not ripped the ahl to shreds, got what 1 point if that in his 9 game stint? Game is favoring speedy players and skating is a problem for him. Doesn't look good as a outlook would appear why he fell was justified is what I am saying.

Without Howard playing hot early first half of the year we would be a lock for top 4 without question. Maybe that's why the tank commanders want him gone? Because like it or not we need more than likely 2-3 top 3 picks to turn the team around.

That's a weak argument.

Hey, without Larkin turning on the jets in game after game, we probably go 0-82, we should probably get rid of him too. AA actually reined himself in and played a team game. **** we should can him.

LGD has scored 9 goals. How much closer to the bottom of the league would we be if he wasn't there?

The game always favors GOOD players. Fast, slow, whatever. Z was never a speed demon, but he was a fabulous player. A guy like Mathieu Dandenault was lightning quick and he was an afterthought. Zadina looks like he'll be a good player. That's why people are enamored of him.
 
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waltdetroit

Registered User
Jul 20, 2010
2,649
526
The 1st 4 players in Zadina's draft made the NHL full time. Almost everyone else in the first round maybe had a cup of coffee in the NHL and went back to Juniors or college. 1 to the KHL. I'd say that Zadina playing in the AHL because he was eligible is a step ahead of most others.
 

lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
9,592
3,424
I'm still all for trading AA. You don't sell low, you sell high.
Man , he is yang very good winger , who is learning ho play center this year to become more complete player . He is going to get better . I believe hockey is a fun game , there are individual players who give you enjoinment to watch the game . Players like Fedorov , Datsyuk , Franzen before and now Larkin and AA give you that filing .
 
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lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
9,592
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That's a weak argument.

Hey, without Larkin turning on the jets in game after game, we probably go 0-82, we should probably get rid of him too. AA actually reined himself in and played a team game. **** we should can him.

LGD has scored 9 goals. How much closer to the bottom of the league would we be if he wasn't there?

The game always favors GOOD players. Fast, slow, whatever. Z was never a speed demon, but he was a fabulous player. A guy like Mathieu Dandenault was lightning quick and he was an afterthought. Zadina looks like he'll be a good player. That's why people are enamored of him.
Zadina needs to work on his physicality , everybody knows that . Question is , can he do it , only time will tell , still to young
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
That's some mystery! An electrifying speed demon on the verge of scoring 30 goals on a terrible team? Ooh, I dunno, why would I be hesitant to trade him?!

He's also an erstwhile wing who STILL has trouble playing within the system consistently who is in line to probably make ****ing bank after next season. If you are truly serious about looking forward, it could easily be the best move to deal AA rather than re-upping him at huge dollars after 19-20. Say you could get a Jake Bean or Timothy Liljegren for AA and have a potentially similar impact on the blue line that AA would give you up front, you'd have to at least consider it.

It isn't crazy to be looking at deals for him. Electrifying means nothing. Will AA be a part of a successful 2020-2021 Wings team? If you think he'll keep growing into utilizing his teammates and he's worth a bump up in salary, then you do. If you think that he's a secondary scorer (like Nyquist and Tatar before him, who both turned in nearly identical seasons in nearly identical scenarios), then you don't lock yourself into it.

Hell, electrifying makes it more likely that someone would pony up for him. I happen to think AA is more flash than substance (he's developed a ton in the substance area tho), so if someone offers me a material asset on the blueline for him, I'm all ears. It's gotta be a good player though, because I think AA is pretty dang good now.
 

TCNorthstars

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
4,281
1,796
Lansing area, MI
That's some mystery! An electrifying speed demon on the verge of scoring 30 goals on a terrible team? Ooh, I dunno, why would I be hesitant to trade him?!

Sure you wouldn't want to trade him Brooks Orpik. But you'd be crazy to NOT trade him for any of the others I listed + dozens more.

But you wouldn't trade him for the 6 #1D (some of them Norris trophy winners) I listed? Nor the #1 C's I listed or the 1#W I listed. You must be a relative of AA...
 

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