GDT: Wings @ pens 7:00 pm et 4/4/19

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

No, it's not preventing them from signing free agents, but i'd still rather not have it on the books. Same for Abdelkader, Helm, etc. Would you rather have Abdelkader and Nielsen, or put that money towards someone like Duchene?

I mean, that's not really an option and it's kind of silly to remain upset about a contract signed in 2014 and a contract signed in 2016.

That yes, they are bad deals. But they're bad deals that are signed. You can't go unsign them. You can't, shy of burning several quality assets, move them. So, you go forward and make the best moves you can with the knowledge these guys are there.

And I mean, frankly, if we offered up 8M+ for Duchene, and he gets less than 60 points as he's been apt to do, that would be another contract that would just be complained about.

I just wonder about how productive discussions are if we always go back to "oh man, if we didn't have X, we could do so many things". The point is, we do have X. It is a given, so we need to operate in that constrained area. Sure, Abby, Helm, DDK, Nielsen... bad signings. but they're not the problem. The problem is that for about a decade the Wings got nothing but supporting players from the draft.

 

[izlez]

No, it's not preventing them from signing free agents, but i'd still rather not have it on the books. Same for Abdelkader, Helm, etc. Would you rather have Abdelkader and Nielsen, or put that money towards someone like Duchene?

You don't think it's at all ironic that you're complaining about Nielsen's contract while wishing for the chance to sign Duchene?

Was Nielsen of 4 years ago really that different than Duchene?

Isn't Duchene going to get a big contract in free agency, where he will very soon be a massively over-paid 30 year old?

 

[obey86]

I mean, that's not really an option and it's kind of silly to remain upset about a contract signed in 2014 and a contract signed in 2016.

That yes, they are bad deals. But they're bad deals that are signed. You can't go unsign them. You can't, shy of burning several quality assets, move them. So, you go forward and make the best moves you can with the knowledge these guys are there.

And I mean, frankly, if we offered up 8M+ for Duchene, and he gets less than 60 points as he's been apt to do, that would be another contract that would just be complained about.

I just wonder about how productive discussions are if we always go back to "oh man, if we didn't have X, we could do so many things". The point is, we do have X. It is a given, so we need to operate in that constrained area. Sure, Abby, Helm, DDK, Nielsen... bad signings. but they're not the problem. The problem is that for about a decade the Wings got nothing but supporting players from the draft.

I'd rather pay 8M for a 60 point player than a similar amount for 2 players who combine for that 60 point total. A 60 point forward helps generate offense for the team more so than a two 30 point forwards does.

And I never said we can unsign any contracts or that i'm upset. But they are bad deals and the people arguing otherwise are wrong. All we're doing is discussing the bad deals, how the team was built, bad moves made, good moves made, etc.....this is a message board.....cant we talk about that?

 

[obey86]

You don't think it's at all ironic that you're complaining about Nielsen's contract while wishing for the chance to sign Duchene?

Was Nielsen of 4 years ago really that different than Duchene?

Isn't Duchene going to get a big contract in free agency, where he will very soon be a massively over-paid 30 year old?

Duchesne is a career 61 point/82 game player who will be 28 years old to start next season. Nielsen was 4 years older in his first Red Wings season (32 y/o) and not as productive prior to becoming a Red Wing (47 point/82 game average). So yeah, they are quite a bit different.

Look, i'm not super into Duchene or anything, just saying I would rather pay more for a younger/better player than have signed the Nielsen and Abdelkader for the same amount of money. All these bad contracts add up. A couple million here, a couple million there, and wow, we could have actually signed a good player in free agency instead. I get that we are stuck with them. i'm still going to discuss them however. This is a message board for.....discussion.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I'm in no way advocating that it would be better to have Chychrun than Cholowski/Hronek at this point but it's funny to me how many people are using Chychrun's injuries as a major drawback due to an injury plagued future.

Do people not remember Kronwall's first few seasons?

The kid's had a tough start to his career in terms of injuries. That doesn't mean he'll be plagued by them and be a worthless D-man. It could happen, or he could manage to play 800+ games at a very high level.

 

[izlez]

Duchesne is a career 61 point/82 game player who will be 28 years old to start next season. Nielsen was 4 years older in his first Red Wings season (32 y/o) and not as productive prior to becoming a Red Wing (47 point/82 game average). So yeah, they are quite a bit different.

Look, i'm not super into Duchene or anything, just saying I would rather pay more for a younger/better player than have signed the Nielsen and Abdelkader for the same amount of money. All these bad contracts add up. A couple million here, a couple million there, and wow, we could have actually signed a good player in free agency instead. I get that we are stuck with them. i'm still going to discuss them however. This is a message board for.....discussion.

....where are all these younger better players that are available in free agency?

And going in line with all the tanking/draft lottery talk, if you find one or two of these guys, keep in mind you have about a 4% chance of signing him... where is the value in just hoarding cap space?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm in no way advocating that it would be better to have Chychrun than Cholowski/Hronek at this point but it's funny to me how many people are using Chychrun's injuries as a major drawback due to an injury plagued future.

Do people not remember Kronwall's first few seasons?

The kid's had a tough start to his career in terms of injuries. That doesn't mean he'll be plagued by them and be a worthless D-man. It could happen, or he could manage to play 800+ games at a very high level.

Yes, he could. However, he's had three injury plagued years and frankly, he's been getting hit with knee injuries, which generally don't presage good things for defensemen.

And it's less that he'll be worthless and more that Chychrun's been hitting his positives and what is expected of him when healthy and he's been getting pinged by injuries that will eventually slow him down.

I mean, the injuries are a legitimate concern with him just like they were a legitimate concern with Kronner.

 

[obey86]

....where are all these younger better players that are available in free agency?

And going in line with all the tanking/draft lottery talk, if you find one or two of these guys, keep in mind you have about a 4% chance of signing him... where is the value in just hoarding cap space?

Nyquist, Duchene, Panarin, Skinner, Dzingel, Hayes, Nelson, Lee, Karlsson, Zuccarello, Ferland, Eberle, Myers, Gardiner, Simmonds are all younger and better than either Nielsen or Abdelkader.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Duchesne is a career 61 point/82 game player who will be 28 years old to start next season. Nielsen was 4 years older in his first Red Wings season (32 y/o) and not as productive prior to becoming a Red Wing (47 point/82 game average). So yeah, they are quite a bit different.

Look, i'm not super into Duchene or anything, just saying I would rather pay more for a younger/better player than have signed the Nielsen and Abdelkader for the same amount of money. All these bad contracts add up. A couple million here, a couple million there, and wow, we could have actually signed a good player in free agency instead. I get that we are stuck with them. i'm still going to discuss them however. This is a message board for.....discussion.

Yes, about discussion about things that could happen, might happen, whatever. What further "discussion" is there about Abdelkader, Helm, etc.? We all know the contracts are bad and largely immovable. So... where does the discussion come in relation to these things? Like "Oh man, we would be better if we didn't sign him and we signed player X instead?"

I'm not trying to curtail discussion, just kind of stating that it isn't much of a discussion when everything is couched in "man, we'd be so much better off if we hadn't spent our money on that."

I mean, all the discussions about "we shouldn't have signed that guy, this guy, whatever" are all 20/20 hindsight driven. And frankly, most of these bad contracts are quickly ending. You can discuss whether it was a waste of time or they should spend assets to fast forward one or two more of them... but aren't the more fruitful and interesting discussions in what we could do going forward instead of we should have done X instead of Y? Isn't that why Hossa v Franzen kinda got stale and is practically verboten?

 

[izlez]

Nyquist, Duchene, Panarin, Skinner, Dzingel, Hayes, Nelson, Lee, Karlsson, Zuccarello, Ferland, Eberle, Myers, Gardiner, Simmonds are all younger and better than either Nielsen or Abdelkader.

and none are currently free agents

 

[The Zermanator]

Yes, about discussion about things that could happen, might happen, whatever. What further "discussion" is there about Abdelkader, Helm, etc.? We all know the contracts are bad and largely immovable. So... where does the discussion come in relation to these things? Like "Oh man, we would be better if we didn't sign him and we signed player X instead?"

I'm not trying to curtail discussion, just kind of stating that it isn't much of a discussion when everything is couched in "man, we'd be so much better off if we hadn't spent our money on that."

I mean, all the discussions about "we shouldn't have signed that guy, this guy, whatever" are all 20/20 hindsight driven. And frankly, most of these bad contracts are quickly ending. You can discuss whether it was a waste of time or they should spend assets to fast forward one or two more of them... but aren't the more fruitful and interesting discussions in what we could do going forward instead of we should have done X instead of Y? Isn't that why Hossa v Franzen kinda got stale and is practically verboten?

Umm, might want to take a look at the signing threads for a lot of these guys... I hated the Abby/Helm/Nielsen deals the day they were signed, as did many others, for example.

Complaining about Hossa vs Franzen and complaining about players who are currently taking up too much cap space and roster spots are not the same thing.

 

[obey86]

and none are currently free agents

Not sure what you mean. In a couple months they are all scheduled to be unrestricted free agents. This discussion was obviously centered around offseason free agent signings....not literally signing someone right at this moment.

 

[obey86]

Yes, about discussion about things that could happen, might happen, whatever. What further "discussion" is there about Abdelkader, Helm, etc.? We all know the contracts are bad and largely immovable. So... where does the discussion come in relation to these things? Like "Oh man, we would be better if we didn't sign him and we signed player X instead?"

I'm not trying to curtail discussion, just kind of stating that it isn't much of a discussion when everything is couched in "man, we'd be so much better off if we hadn't spent our money on that."

I mean, all the discussions about "we shouldn't have signed that guy, this guy, whatever" are all 20/20 hindsight driven. And frankly, most of these bad contracts are quickly ending. You can discuss whether it was a waste of time or they should spend assets to fast forward one or two more of them... but aren't the more fruitful and interesting discussions in what we could do going forward instead of we should have done X instead of Y? Isn't that why Hossa v Franzen kinda got stale and is practically verboten?

After this season end, the Wings still have three more years of Nielsen, four more years of Abdelkader, and three more years of Dekeyser. Can you imagine how bad a now useless Abdelkader will be a couple years from now?

 

[izlez]

Not sure what you mean. In a couple months they are all scheduled to be unrestricted free agents. This discussion was obviously centered around offseason free agent signings....not literally signing someone right at this moment.

They all have 3 months to sign with their current teams. I would bet most "better/younger" players on that list do.

And about half of those guys are either not as good as Nielsen was, or are as old and a similar player. If we had MORE cap space to sign Zucc and Simmonds, do you not think 90% of people will be complaining that they are old and overpaid within 2 years? How is that better than signing Nielsen 4 years ago?

 

[obey86]

They all have 3 months to sign with their current teams. I would bet most "better/younger" players on that list do.

And about half of those guys are either not as good as Nielsen was, or are as old and a similar player. If we had MORE cap space to sign Zucc and Simmonds, do you not think 90% of people will be complaining that they are old and overpaid within 2 years? How is that better than signing Nielsen 4 years ago?

Nielsen was 32 when we signed him. Basically all these players are like 28 and under right now. More years until they decline, and most are better than Nielsen ever was anyways.

But you stick with your "I'd rather have Nielen than any of these other guys" take. Nielsen blows man.

 

[Hammettf2b]

They all have 3 months to sign with their current teams. I would bet most "better/younger" players on that list do.

And about half of those guys are either not as good as Nielsen was, or are as old and a similar player. If we had MORE cap space to sign Zucc and Simmonds, do you not think 90% of people will be complaining that they are old and overpaid within 2 years? How is that better than signing Nielsen 4 years ago?

I think its safe to say that those players are reaching free agency.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

After this season end, the Wings still have three more years of Nielsen, four more years of Abdelkader, and three more years of Dekeyser. Can you imagine how bad a now useless Abdelkader will be a couple years from now?

Ok, and how is this a discussion point? We all know that Abby sucks now. Hell, we all knew it then. But I mean, that's not a very interesting discussion.

Hey, Abby sucks! Yep, he does.

We'd have been better off doing anything else with the money we gave to him! Yep, we would.

And even with all of these mistakes and immovable deals, we have enough money to comfortably chase Erik Karlsson if we so chose. Enough cap space freeing up that if we landed Jack Hughes and he's a Connor McDavid level superstud, we could sign him to a massive contract and it wouldn't hurt us in the slightest.

Like Zermanator even said, we knew the contract was bad from the moment it was signed on Abby. So... what ground are you covering by saying in 2019.... HEY THIS CONTRACT IS BAD! The more important thing is, we have legitimate room coming free and all of our young key pieces actually have solid contracts already.

 

[obey86]

Ok, and how is this a discussion point? We all know that Abby sucks now. Hell, we all knew it then. But I mean, that's not a very interesting discussion.

Hey, Abby sucks! Yep, he does.

We'd have been better off doing anything else with the money we gave to him! Yep, we would.

And even with all of these mistakes and immovable deals, we have enough money to comfortably chase Erik Karlsson if we so chose. Enough cap space freeing up that if we landed Jack Hughes and he's a Connor McDavid level superstud, we could sign him to a massive contract and it wouldn't hurt us in the slightest.

Like Zermanator even said, we knew the contract was bad from the moment it was signed on Abby. So... what ground are you covering by saying in 2019.... HEY THIS CONTRACT IS BAD! The more important thing is, we have legitimate room coming free and all of our young key pieces actually have solid contracts already.

It's such an uninteresting discussion that you keep discussing it with me. If you don't think it's interesting and don't want to talk about it then please stop replying to my posts. Have a good day.

 

[izlez]

Nielsen was 32 when we signed him. Basically all these players are like 28 and under right now. More years until they decline, and most are better than Nielsen ever was anyways.

But you stick with your "I'd rather have Nielen than any of these other guys" take. Nielsen blows man.

Nielsen isn't good.
I just think it's funny that you're drawing up a fantasy of replacing Nielsen with 7 years of a 30 year old winger that has 29 points on the year.

Players like Nielsen are the type of guys that make it to UFA. We had the cap space to get him. We have cap space now to get another player to more players like him. Saving cap space to get even MORE players like him serves no purpose

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

You don't think it's at all ironic that you're complaining about Nielsen's contract while wishing for the chance to sign Duchene?

Was Nielsen of 4 years ago really that different than Duchene?

Isn't Duchene going to get a big contract in free agency, where he will very soon be a massively over-paid 30 year old?

Nielsen was never ever as good as Duchene... what???

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

and none are currently free agents

Almost all of them are set to be UFAs in a few months.....

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

After this season end, the Wings still have three more years of Nielsen, four more years of Abdelkader, and three more years of Dekeyser. Can you imagine how bad a now useless Abdelkader will be a couple years from now?

I would give up both of our second round picks this year if someone took Abdelkader off our hands....

 

[Pavels Dog]

I would give up both of our second round picks this year if someone took Abdelkader off our hands....

Then you'd be making a horrible, extremely shortsighted decision.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Then you'd be making a horrible, extremely shortsighted decision.

He is taking up a roster spot. Addition by subtracting

 

[Ezekial]

He is taking up a roster spot. Addition by subtracting

Keep the two picks, buy him out and get the same production from a guy on the elc.

f***ing term is the reason I don't buy it out.

Tbh I don't think 2 50s are getting that contract off our books.