Ansar Khan: Wings interested in Vanek among others

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Vanek/Kovalchuk wouldn't be brought in for leadership, they'd be possible TDL assets as well as fillers for if/when we trade Nyquist/AA/others.

You think Holland would trade nyquist and AA by Sept?

If he dosent and he adds bum-has been free agents all it does is further clog the minutes and situations we MUST hand feed our young players(bert, aa, Svech, mantha and Ras.)

The notion that they need to earn their time is over for awhile. Right now we need to just play them, in all situations, win or loss. If they're not competing then that is the sole fault of Zetterberg and Blashil.

Just be bad but we can still be exciting to draw fans in.

Trade nyquist in February and continue to draft high and often.

The ship will eventually right itself.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You think Holland would trade nyquist and AA by Sept?

I really don't know enough to say either way. But it feels like something's gotta give. I would be surprised if we make zero trades AND sign Vanek AND Green.

 

[BinCookin]

Kovalchuk would have deadline value.
Vanek doesn't.

To be honest it makes little sense... Vanek actually produces but for whatever reason no one thinks he will help them win on a good team. So his value is nothing.

I don't want Vanek, as he has no trade value.
1-2 year Kovalchuk WITH NTC i am fine with, as that becomes an asset to trade.

 

[njx9]

Let's see what happens. We don't have much NHL caliber filler in GR, and we're still in the business of trying to ice a majority of actual NHL players and not fall into the Buffalo/Edmonton traps.

Sorry to snip, but I guess I'd disagree with this. I don't think Svech, for instance, is going to benefit from more time in GR over equivalent time in Detroit, especially if we don't play him in a Jurco-y role. Bring the kids up, give them 3rd line-ish roles, and let them sink or swim. If Svech fails, better that he does it now, when we can move on quickly. I don't think that's an Edmonton trap, given that the team is still flush with "vet leadership" up and down the lines.

1-2 year Kovalchuk WITH NTC

It seems odd to emphasize the "WITH NTC" there... is it because you think that's the only reason he'd sign? I feel like he'd already only be tradeable to a good team at the deadline, and would hate to further restrict any potential market because he doesn't like a given city.

 

[BinCookin]

It seems odd to emphasize the "WITH NTC" there... is it because you think that's the only reason he'd sign? I feel like he'd already only be tradeable to a good team at the deadline, and would hate to further restrict any potential market because he doesn't like a given city.

Typo... meant without a NTC. LOL

 

[njx9]

Typo... meant without a NTC. LOL

Ha, got it. Makes more sense

 

[Henkka]

I could somehow understand Vanek

A) if some winger is traded
B) comes with a 1-year deal
C) will be the main mentor for Rasmussen as a future net-front beast

 

[ShelbyZ]

I rolled my eyes a bit, but I guess I'm OK with it.

At the moment, the Red Wings have three spots open at forward (Tatar's technically hasn't been filled yet, Booth is out, Frk is either out or on the bubble). We know they aren't going to give every open spot to a young guy, especially when outside of Rasmussen and possibly Svechnikov and Turgeon, they don't have any young forwards ready to take on regular roles in the NHL. One spot is likely to go to Rasmussen, another to a UFA and the third is likely a battle between Svechnikov/Pope/(if they opt for it)forward taken at #6OA/PTO's/etc./or leave it open to carry 8 dmen.

Given that, I'll take a short term UFA place holder or two that can be easily traded away or let go as UFA's over another Nielsen like signing or panic extension of one of the teams existing vets.

The interest in Vanek isn't surprising since both he and Holland seemed dead set on having him return here last summer once the AA holdout and Sheahan trade were ironed out.

Just seems crazy to me that Vanek would want to come back and likely face a 6th address change in less than 3 seasons... If it were me, I'd try to latch on with a contender to start with and not have to pack everything up in February. He must have a real understanding wife...

 

[Run the Jewels]

Kovalchuk would have deadline value.
Vanek doesn't.

To be honest it makes little sense... Vanek actually produces but for whatever reason no one thinks he will help them win on a good team. So his value is nothing.

I don't want Vanek, as he has no trade value.
1-2 year Kovalchuk WITH NTC i am fine with, as that becomes an asset to trade.

Kovalchuk actually left the NHL while under contract so I'm not sure how much trade value he'd actually have.

I get that Kenny is basically re-arranging deck chairs, let's just not overstate the impact. History tells us he's gonna blow out the salary cap and hope he has a playoff team. If/when he realizes he doesn't he'll trade assets, however most of his assets have no real value on the open market. Only so many GMs will fall for the Brendan Smith banana in the tailpipe.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Kovalchuk actually left the NHL while under contract so I'm not sure how much trade value he'd actually have.

I get that Kenny is basically re-arranging deck chairs, let's just not overstate the impact. History tells us he's gonna blow out the salary cap and hope he has a playoff team. If/when he realizes he doesn't he'll trade assets, however most of his assets have no real value on the open market. Only so many GMs will fall for the Brendan Smith banana in the tailpipe.

Considering a reported 9 or 10 teams are interested in signing Kovalchuk right now, I would imagine he'll have some value as a deadline rental. Especially when you consider the Red Wings would be more than happy to retain 50% of his salary for whatever contender he goes to.

As for the leaving the NHL part, if that's even an issue now, I'm sure Kovalchuk will request (and likely get) an NTC that will allow him to pick his destination when/if the Red Wings go to trade him. A limited list of teams might keep the return from being lucrative, but they aren't losing anything measureable (other than money) by signing Kovalchuk, and what they get back is essentially a free asset. Same went for Vanek. At the end of the day you can't really argue against adding another mid 3rd rounder that you didn't have before and didn't have to give up anything important to get it....

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Kovalchuk has value because he is a free asset with the potential to could be really good coming back.

If you told teams they had to give up a 1st or 2nd round for him right now, do you think it is still 9 or 10 teams? The risk for Kovalchuk in my opinion outweighs the possible reward (which in ideal circumstances would be a late 1st rounder, which would be a trade-off for a weaker draft position while he helps win us hockey games before the deadline).

 

[njx9]

If you told teams they had to give up a 1st or 2nd round for him right now, do you think it is still 9 or 10 teams?

No, but that's because teams aren't looking for an injury replacement for a playoff bound team, or the last piece to propel them into the playoffs. One a one year/two year deal where we eat a significant portion of his salary at the TDL, he'll almost certainly return more than Vanek.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I really don't know enough to say either way. But it feels like something's gotta give. I would be surprised if we make zero trades AND sign Vanek AND Green.

Why? That’s our MO. Overclogging the pipeline and never trading people. Trading Tatar was the first time we had traded an every day roster player in over 15 years.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I still don’t understand how Kovalchuk can come back? Wasn’t it required for all thirty-one teams to agree for him to come back? Why would New Jersey be cool with that?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

No, but that's because teams aren't looking for an injury replacement for a playoff bound team, or the last piece to propel them into the playoffs. One a one year/two year deal where we eat a significant portion of his salary at the TDL, he'll almost certainly return more than Vanek.

Okay, but you are kind of glossing over the point. A an asset you can get for free is likely going to be more sought after than the same asset you have to pay for. Regardless of the extra context you want to add to it, that is the case. So talking about 9-10 teams being interested in him now as the barometer for how much we could possibly get for him at the deadline is faulty, in my opinion.

Also the return Kovalchuk would get is highly influenced on how well he plays coming back (which is not guaranteed). And if he does play well enough to earn more than Vanek, then that means he is doing more to win the team games and increase the odds of the team dropping on the draft board (almost assuredly guaranteed).

 

[njx9]

Okay, but you are kind of glossing over the point. A an asset you can get for free is likely going to be more sought after than the same asset you have to pay for. Regardless of the extra context you want to add to it, that is the case. So talking about 9-10 teams being interested in him now as the barometer for how much we could possibly get for him at the deadline is faulty, in my opinion.

Eh, I mean, you're not wrong that getting a guy for "free" is probably a better deal for teams who are pretty sure they're going to contend. But let's keep in mind that that cap space isn't really free for a lot of teams. It's either spoken for, or will be, as they sign their own guys back or guys they need. If, say, Pittsburgh is interested in Kovy today, for whatever contract he's asking for, they'll probably still be interested in 6ish months when we offer him at a steep discount and when they've seen that he can still play in the NHL.

You're also going to open up a market to teams like Vegas, who probably wouldn't have traded us anything for Tatar last June, but happily gave up solid assets a few months later when they realized they were actually contending.

Also the return Kovalchuk would get is highly influenced on how well he plays coming back (which is not guaranteed). And if he does play well enough to earn more than Vanek, then that means he is doing more to win the team games and increase the odds of the team dropping on the draft board (almost assuredly guaranteed).

I think this is the real gamble, moreso than whether there will still be a market for him: is he good enough to retain interest into December/January/February, or is he a dud? On a 1-year deal, I guess I don't really care - either he's good enough that we can get something, or he sucks and he just costs the Illitches some cash.

If we're really worried about our draft position, then you start jettisoning goalies in December or January and you don't worry about whatever gains you made in November.

I don't want to sign either of these dudes, but I think Kovy offers way more in return than Vanek, who barely got anything (relative to the quality of his play). If you want to play asset roulette, the guy you should chase is pretty clear. If you don't want to gamble, we should just let someone else take on both of them and throw Svech/Ras into the fire, and supplement them with whatever 800k/1m-ish veteran is still available in September.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Why? That’s our MO. Overclogging the pipeline and never trading people. Trading Tatar was the first time we had traded an every day roster player in over 15 years.

While true, rarely do we hear our coach and GM talk about a minum of 2 young players making the roster and up to ~5 of them. Rarely is the GM so clear about the team being "open for business" and willing to both move up and down in the draft. Blashill talks about the team having the most competitive camp they've ever had; indicating that roster spots will be open for competition.

Nothing much could happen, but this isn't our typical offseason situation nor are the things being said typical of our MO.

 

[jkutswings]

. Blashill talks about the team having the most competitive camp they've ever had; indicating that roster spots will be open for competition.

The Lions went 4-0 in pre season before going 0-16 in the regular season. When you have a ton of lousy players, saying that training camp is full of battles doesn't really mean much.

If they trade Gus or AA this summer for a decent return - and stay fairly quiet in free agency - I'll be happy that they're continuing down the right path. But I'm not convinced that Kenny the Leopard has changed his spots just yet.

 

[Reddwit]

I don't mind re-signing Vanek or Green but I'm bothered by the rhetoric surrounding the decisions.

The Detroit Red Wings are in the middle of a rebuild, but they don't want to bottom out any further than they did in 2017-18.

Haha, what? How out of touch are we here? No one cares if Detroit ends up the 10th worst team or dead last right now. They're irrelevant. They're boring. They've lost the interest of the majority of the casual fanbase. Being worried about bottoming out any further should be the least of your worries - focus on creating the necessary building blocks for the future so you have something better to offer than a mediocre product a few years down the line.

They want to compete, sell tickets, draw TV viewers. They don't want to be so bad that fans lose interest.

Again - laughter. The fans have already lost interest. They've been losing interest. This team is not designed to compete and its certainly not designed to be entertaining regardless of wins. Getting a shot at a top 3 pick would be a bigger draw than Tomas Vanek bumping up our PP%.

That's why they're aiming to sign some free agents on July 1 and not just fill out their roster with prospects.

Nobody wants to come to Detroit. Nobody has wanted to come to Detroit outside of the big names carrying bad PR in years. People aren't going to watch more Wings games because Vanek is there instead of Martin Frk.

Left wing Ilya Kovalchuk is at the top of their wish list. They'd be willing to give him a two-year contract at a high salary, a source said. They believe he's capable of scoring 25 to 30 goals.

And this is just embarrassing. The Wings have no chance of signing Kovalchuk and doing so would be completely counter-productive to generating a positive on-ice product down the line, given that Kovalchuk actually could improve the team modestly enough to keep it in limbo where the draft picks aren't as great but the playoffs are unattainable. He's also not a big enough name anymore to the bulk of the viewers they're trying to bring back to the rink to really accomplish anything. You'd probably get as big of a draw if you brought in Jagr.

Now, if you want to talk about signing Vanek because you think he'd be a good influence on Rasmussen or AA or whoever - cool. If you want to talk about signing veteran free agents like Roussel or Comeau because you think they'll keep the opposition honest - fine. If you want to talk about targeting guys who you could flip at the deadline who actually have trade value - great. But setting up these targets as a way to signal to the fanbase that you aren't throwing in the towel just comes off as hilariously out of touch. The fans have already thrown in the towel on you. Bottom out while no one is looking and no one cares. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel here.

 

[Mister Ed]

I can see a Vanek signing if AA is traded for some help on D.
Also, I can see Jensen being traded somewheres like Philly or San Jose.

Mantha - Larkin - Abdelkader
Nyquist - Zetterberg - Bertuzzi
Rasmussen - Nielsen - Athanasiou or Vanek
Svechnikov - Turgeon - Glendening

Extra : Witkowski

Dekeyser - Daley
Kronwall - Ericsson
Cholowski - Jensen

Extra : Hronek or Sulak

Howard
Hutton or Khudobin

 

[jkutswings]

I don't mind re-signing Vanek or Green but I'm bothered by the rhetoric surrounding the decisions.

Haha, what? How out of touch are we here? No one cares if Detroit ends up the 10th worst team or dead last right now. They're irrelevant. They're boring. They've lost the interest of the majority of the casual fanbase. Being worried about bottoming out any further should be the least of your worries - focus on creating the necessary building blocks for the future so you have something better to offer than a mediocre product a few years down the line.



Again - laughter. The fans have already lost interest. They've been losing interest. This team is not designed to compete and its certainly not designed to be entertaining regardless of wins. Getting a shot at a top 3 pick would be a bigger draw than Tomas Vanek bumping up our PP%.



Nobody wants to come to Detroit. Nobody has wanted to come to Detroit outside of the big names carrying bad PR in years. People aren't going to watch more Wings games because Vanek is there instead of Martin Frk.



And this is just embarrassing. The Wings have no chance of signing Kovalchuk and doing so would be completely counter-productive to generating a positive on-ice product down the line, given that Kovalchuk actually could improve the team modestly enough to keep it in limbo where the draft picks aren't as great but the playoffs are unattainable. He's also not a big enough name anymore to the bulk of the viewers they're trying to bring back to the rink to really accomplish anything. You'd probably get as big of a draw if you brought in Jagr.

Now, if you want to talk about signing Vanek because you think he'd be a good influence on Rasmussen or AA or whoever - cool. If you want to talk about signing veteran free agents like Roussel or Comeau because you think they'll keep the opposition honest - fine. If you want to talk about targeting guys who you could flip at the deadline who actually have trade value - great. But setting up these targets as a way to signal to the fanbase that you aren't throwing in the towel just comes off as hilariously out of touch. The fans have already thrown in the towel on you. Bottom out while no one is looking and no one cares. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Exactly. It's like they'd rather be sick for a longer period of time, because they don't like the taste of the medicine.

Stink.
Hoard picks.
Draft well.
Repeat for 3-5 years.
THEN you can see how things are coming along.

The fans that are still watching will continue to do so, regardless of how many regular season wins there are. The fans that have stopped watching won't restart because the team is 38-44 instead of 28-54.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The Lions went 4-0 in pre season before going 0-16 in the regular season. When you have a ton of lousy players, saying that training camp is full of battles doesn't really mean much.

Yeah, competitive in the sense that jobs will be up for grabs. Doesn’t mean the kids fighting for those jobs will be worldbeaters.

Stink.
Hoard picks.
Draft well.
Repeat for 3-5 years.
THEN you can see how things are coming along.

They’re absolutely in the middle of doing this. A possible Green/Vanek signing doesn’t change it. Team doesn’t need to deliberately get worse, and having more tradeable veteran assets is good because we want to keep stockpiling picks. Problem is some around here still don’t grasp that the turn around for this team won’t come driven by prospects that can’t outplay a 35 year old Vanek.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah, competitive in the sense that jobs will be up for grabs. Doesn’t mean the kids fighting for those jobs will be worldbeaters.


They’re absolutely in the middle of doing this. A possible Green/Vanek signing doesn’t change it. Team doesn’t need to deliberately get worse, and having more tradeable veteran assets is good because we want to keep stockpiling picks. Problem is some around here still don’t grasp that the turn around for this team won’t come driven by prospects that can’t outplay a 35 year old Vanek.

But I'm saying that Kovalchuk won't take their calls, and Vanek won't return anything at the deadline, so there's no point. If a UFA helps them win even a couple more games, and jump even one team in the lottery - without returning anything worthwhile as a trade chip - then it's an overall negative for the rebuild.

I'd rather keep payroll as lean as possible, and look for cap dumps for 1st/2nd round picks, than add a Vanek from the bargain bin to only get a 4th at the deadline.

 

[Pavels Dog]

But I'm saying that Kovalchuk won't take their calls, and Vanek won't return anything at the deadline, so there's no point. If a UFA helps them win even a couple more games, and jump even one team in the lottery - without returning anything worthwhile as a trade chip - then it's an overall negative for the rebuild.

I'd rather keep payroll as lean as possible, and look for cap dumps for 1st/2nd round picks, than add a Vanek from the bargain bin to only get a 4th at the deadline.

I disagree with the fundamentals of your line of thinking. We are a bottom 5 team. Only 3 teams scored less goals than us. No one would be surprised if we are the worst team in the league next season by a margin of 10 points.
Sure in theory it's possible Vanek scores an important goal that helps us win game #53 of the season which could then be seen as a reason we finish 4th worst instead of 3rd worst. Just like Larkin could get 80+ points and singlehandedly win enough games to put us out of the bottom 10, or Howard could win the Vezina, or Blashill could emulate Gallant and take us to the SCF.
Or, Mantha could score 50 goals but our sh*t defense still lands us as a bottom 3 team. Who the heck knows. But when you're as bad as we are, you can't be afraid to sign a dirt cheap FA for 1 year because THAT guy is going to help you win a bunch of games. We're so bad that we could add Karlsson and Tavares and still not be a lock to make the playoffs.

 

[Winger98]

Part of me doesn't mind signing Vanek, but another part of me hates it. I don't think we become a much better team because of it, but I don't like adding another vet to the roster who simply won't be moved out until he's either dealt or his deal expires. If we sign someone, I'd really like to see another player moved off the roster through trade.

As it is, I think it's very likely we see someone like Cholowski or Hronek come to camp, thoroughly outplay enough guys to warrant making the team, but be sent down because they want to him to get "more minutes" in GR rather than bumping a guy like Dekeyser or Kronwall or Daley down or off the roster.