Ansar Khan: Wings interested in Vanek among others

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,870
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Lol how much better do you think Vanek makes us? Bigger improvement than Buffalo adding Dahlin? Bigger improvement than AZ, Ottawa and Montreal adding top 5 picks?
Those were the only teams with worse records than us last year. All will add big name prospects that could step in and be major differencemakers next year.

I don't really want Vanek, but it really doesn't hurt us in any way to add that caliber of FA on a short-term deal. So we'll lose some games 5-4 instead of 5-1. It's still zero points. The team doesn't need to be an absolute embarrassment for 100% of 82 games in order to finish near or at the bottom.

probably

I feel like you're really overestimating how quickly anyone drafted this year will make a big impact(other than maybe Svechnikov)

Vanek is a 50-60 point player that if signed will probably compete for the team lead in points while he's here and your whole 0 point thing sounds cute but doesn't really have a lot of basis in reality for a team that actually lost quite a few close games last year(tied for second in the league with 13 Overtime/Shootout losses,lost 18 games in regulation by 1 goal counting 4 that were only 2 because of empty nets)
 

Nut Upstrom

You dirty dog!
Dec 18, 2010
3,206
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Florida
I see no point in trying to ensure we finish dead last. To do that requires many factors beyond the quality of your team, primarily injuries, coaching and general team/organization suckage and disfunction (see Ottawa). It's pointless for a GM to sit in his office around draft and FA time trying to decide what he can do to make sure his team sucks more than everyone else.
With or without Green/Vanek we will be where we need to be: among the bottom hand full of teams who have a legitimate hope at claiming a lottery pick. Finishing dead last won't guarantee a lottery pick just like nothing Holland does now (barring a total sabotage effort) can guarantee a last place finish. It seems a silly strategy to avoid a vet player because you're afraid he'll move your team from 30th to 29th in the final standings.

I don't really want Vanek unless Holland has designs on shedding some of our other forwards (Nyquist, AA for example) and I don't want Green unless it is a 1 or 2 year deal with no NTC. If all of those conditions aren't met then I will be annoyed if Kenny signs either of those players, but I won't be stressing and complaining in June that he's ruining our chances to finish dead last!
 
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Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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probably

I feel like you're really overestimating how quickly anyone drafted this year will make a big impact(other than maybe Svechnikov)

Vanek is a 50-60 point player that if signed will probably compete for the team lead in points while he's here and your whole 0 point thing sounds cute but doesn't really have a lot of basis in reality for a team that actually lost quite a few close games last year(tied for second in the league with 13 Overtime/Shootout losses,lost 18 games in regulation by 1 goal counting 4 that were only 2 because of empty nets)
Look at our record post-TDL.

And even if not many picks are instant stars, I still think Dahlin and Mittlestadt are bigger additions for Buffalo than Vanek would be for us. Svechnikov, Tkachuk and Zadina could all be instant NHLers.

If we're scared that Vanek will be the guy that lifts us out of the bottom, our talent issue can't be that bad. Our top 6 forwards and top 4D are much bigger reasons for our lost hockey games than the lack of a one-dimensional 3rd line PP specialist.
 

Zetterberg4Captain

Registered User
Aug 11, 2009
13,728
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Detroit
I would much rather just gift svechnikov and bertuzzi top minutes.

Zetts
Larkin
Mantha
AA
Nyquist
Bert
Svech
Abby
Nielsen

Their is no real room for vanek or kovalchuk.
Just play the kids
Suck
Trade nyquist at deadline
Draft high
Repeat
Get better for the long-term

No fan, absolutely none will pay to watch a slightly better bad team with vanek on it.

But they will pay to watch young kids who could be part of our future play an uptempo style with heart and throw in some grit, toughness and the ocassional fight and fans will watch.
 

Three Crowns

Registered User
May 24, 2018
10
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I would much rather just gift svechnikov and bertuzzi top minutes.

Zetts
Larkin
Mantha
AA
Nyquist
Bert
Svech
Abby
Nielsen

Their is no real room for vanek or kovalchuk.
Just play the kids
Suck
Trade nyquist at deadline
Draft high
Repeat
Get better for the long-term

No fan, absolutely none will pay to watch a slightly better bad team with vanek on it.

But they will pay to watch young kids who could be part of our future play an uptempo style with heart and throw in some grit, toughness and the ocassional fight and fans will watch.

Pretty much agree with this, although GN and AA could well be traded... So what about FAs such as Roussel and/or Komarov?
 

Hen Kolland

Registered User
Feb 22, 2018
9,470
8,336
You know what fans will pay to watch?

A plan...

Good young players playing hard not old mediocre free agent vets doing another curtain call

Some toughness and heart not some guy with no loyalty to this franchise who just signs one year deals with whomever, rinse and repeat

Play the kids
Suck
Draft high
Get better

The fans who the organization is trying to appeal to want a competitive team that's pushing for playoffs right now. Fans won't pay to see this...or did you not follow the glaring attendance black eye all last year? Having a rebuild plan full of young kids and intentionally building a team to be bad for the next few years, with a stadium that's going to lose the label of being "new" shortly, is not how you sell tickets and keep interest in the team high. It might satisfy the small group of fans that reside on HF, it might be the most legitimate process to get back to competing that we have seen to date, but don't pretend rebuilds are sexy and will draw in crowds on a nightly basis.

One of two things will happen, either ownership keeps a mandate to compete and Holland spends the team to the cap trying to build a winner OR ownership grits their teeth and takes a couple of miserable years financially until enough stones are turned over for this team to be good again.

I don't consider Vanek or Kovalchuk or Green to be attempts at competing because of how expectations of the term of these contracts will be minimal. This would be an attempt to buy draft picks in free agency with money, not assets. As soon as you see Holland trying to offer 5-7 years with big money to Evander Kane on the UFA market, or trying to extend Nyquist for another 5 years, that's when I think this will have gone overboard.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
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If you want to finish dead last trade Howard re-sign Coreau and get terrible backup. That is how teams have done the big cellar finishes. The Buffalo or Leafs plan where you actually start trading or waiving goalies that win too much. That is really the only thing that promises you the bottom for those championing that, the Wings aren't going to but I see Vanek as a very low impact signing.

I also think they are doing this with the thought of AA who Vanek played quite well with at times. I don't think you can really stomach having both on the ice defensively unless AA wants to try this year but maybe they think he will if Vanek is on his wing. Personally I hate AA down the middle and I am not sure Nielsen can really carry two defensive anchors but Vanek actually works at least in terms of effort most of the time. If the idea is to use Vanek to unlock some of AA's ability I am fine with it and I think that is why they like him. He can also be an invaluable teacher to Rasmussen and Bertuzzi in terms of net front play.

We are not going to be good. We can try to surround our young players with guys that have had success in this league and can make a difference on the day to day. We know Vanek and Green are good locker room guys and we don't have issues seeing how they help. I endorse either, it doesn't impact our long-term direction negatively in my opinion.
 
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Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
13,819
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In the Garage
They didn't re-sign Holland for nothing, they know he has no problem being the puppet GM. Ilitch's are definitely worried about the Wings losing them money, especially after last season.
Nah, the simplest answer is this is what Holland wants. He's never indicated he has any interest in eventually becoming good again. His only interest is doing what little he can with the awful roster he's assembled in order to try to squeak into the playoffs. He's been saying as much for the past 3-4 years when it's been clear we are a bad hockey club.

I don't know what to make of Chris Ilitch, however the fact he brought Holland back indicated he'll likely never be a good owner.
 

Zetterberg4Captain

Registered User
Aug 11, 2009
13,728
2,136
Detroit
The fans who the organization is trying to appeal to want a competitive team that's pushing for playoffs right now. Fans won't pay to see this...or did you not follow the glaring attendance black eye all last year? Having a rebuild plan full of young kids and intentionally building a team to be bad for the next few years, with a stadium that's going to lose the label of being "new" shortly, is not how you sell tickets and keep interest in the team high. It might satisfy the small group of fans that reside on HF, it might be the most legitimate process to get back to competing that we have seen to date, but don't pretend rebuilds are sexy and will draw in crowds on a nightly basis.

One of two things will happen, either ownership keeps a mandate to compete and Holland spends the team to the cap trying to build a winner OR ownership grits their teeth and takes a couple of miserable years financially until enough stones are turned over for this team to be good again.

I don't consider Vanek or Kovalchuk or Green to be attempts at competing because of how expectations of the term of these contracts will be minimal. This would be an attempt to buy draft picks in free agency with money, not assets. As soon as you see Holland trying to offer 5-7 years with big money to Evander Kane on the UFA market, or trying to extend Nyquist for another 5 years, that's when I think this will have gone overboard.

Fans have not shown up for years for the very reason you're suggesting, the very thing signing vanek defines.

Fans will not show up to watch old vets with no loyalty or commitment to this franchise.
It' been proven by us already.

I am not advocating that we just let all the kids un the system play however they want but an uptempo structured game doesn't take alot of skill to execute when you have young fast guys willing to learn and earn their next deal
 

Fil Larkmanthanasiou

Registered User
Feb 10, 2018
1,114
603
The fans who the organization is trying to appeal to want a competitive team that's pushing for playoffs right now. Fans won't pay to see this...or did you not follow the glaring attendance black eye all last year? Having a rebuild plan full of young kids and intentionally building a team to be bad for the next few years, with a stadium that's going to lose the label of being "new" shortly, is not how you sell tickets and keep interest in the team high. It might satisfy the small group of fans that reside on HF, it might be the most legitimate process to get back to competing that we have seen to date, but don't pretend rebuilds are sexy and will draw in crowds on a nightly basis.

One of two things will happen, either ownership keeps a mandate to compete and Holland spends the team to the cap trying to build a winner OR ownership grits their teeth and takes a couple of miserable years financially until enough stones are turned over for this team to be good again.

I don't consider Vanek or Kovalchuk or Green to be attempts at competing because of how expectations of the term of these contracts will be minimal. This would be an attempt to buy draft picks in free agency with money, not assets. As soon as you see Holland trying to offer 5-7 years with big money to Evander Kane on the UFA market, or trying to extend Nyquist for another 5 years, that's when I think this will have gone overboard.
Holland has been trying to ice a compettitive team. Signing Vanek won't make them any more competitive than signing Nelson, Daley or Vanek (the first time) and I think those signings have stunted progress.
 

Hatter of the Beach

I’m the real hero
Jun 26, 2017
3,197
3,683
Parkland Estates, Florida
I would much rather just gift svechnikov and bertuzzi top minutes.

Zetts
Larkin
Mantha
AA
Nyquist
Bert
Svech
Abby
Nielsen

Their is no real room for vanek or kovalchuk.
Just play the kids
Suck
Trade nyquist at deadline
Draft high
Repeat
Get better for the long-term

No fan, absolutely none will pay to watch a slightly better bad team with vanek on it.

But they will pay to watch young kids who could be part of our future play an uptempo style with heart and throw in some grit, toughness and the ocassional fight and fans will watch.

I’m guessing if Vanek is signed, we will have already traded Nyquist or AA at the draft.

A 1 year deal at under 3.5 would be fine. If Svechnikov can’t make us waive Witkowski or Frk then he’s not good enough to worry about sending down. If we trade AA at the draft with our two seconds to move up, and then even get conservative estimations for Green (2nd), Nyquist (2nd) and Vanek (3rd), that will go a big way in a few years.

I have many complaints about Ken Holland, but his past two deadlines have been huge successes.
 
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Spitfire11

Registered User
Jan 17, 2003
5,048
242
Ontario
If it means trading Nyquist/Athanasiou then by all means sign him up Kenny. This is what he should have been doing in past years, trading away actual assets (while their value is there) and plugging their roster spots with plugs like Vanek to play out the season and help take pressure off the younger guys. If he's just signing Vanek to add to this dumpster roster then it's an incredibly stupid move, but won't be surprising.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,851
8,576
Lol how much better do you think Vanek makes us? Bigger improvement than Buffalo adding Dahlin? Bigger improvement than AZ, Ottawa and Montreal adding top 5 picks?
Those were the only teams with worse records than us last year. All will add big name prospects that could step in and be major differencemakers next year.

I don't really want Vanek, but it really doesn't hurt us in any way to add that caliber of FA on a short-term deal. So we'll lose some games 5-4 instead of 5-1. It's still zero points. The team doesn't need to be an absolute embarrassment for 100% of 82 games in order to finish near or at the bottom.
Most of the prospects added in this draft will see little to no ice time this season, and will have around the same overall impact as adding 1-2 ho-hum free agents.

Which then means that the Ottawas and Montreals and Arizonas and Detroits of the world are more or less the same as last year. Or, if Ottawa sells Karlsson and Domi's production level continues to be lower than Galchenyuk's, those teams could be worse then last year, while the Wings are marginally better.

And if the best pick they ever get in this rebuild is 6 overall, I don't know if that's enough high-end ammo for this scouting staff and front office to build a real contender.

If I thought the Wings could mine diamonds in the rough like some other teams can, I'd be more confident. But I don't think they've gotten bad enough yet to eventually get good enough to make it all worthwhile.
 

MikeyDee

Registered User
Dec 29, 2017
285
183
Metro Detroit
If they sign Vanek, they better trade AA or Nyquist. This organization needs to wise-up... there is no short-cut to developing players at the NHL level... you have to play them and take your lumps. I'm so tired of hearing rumors of the Red Wings open to signing multiple FA's this summer. It clearly shows me that they are out of touch with the reality they are in and a change in management is needed sooner rather than later or IMO should have happened already. My patience with this organization is running thin. Holland better draft well this weekend or, it will be a much longer road for the fans than anyone would hope for.
 

TCNorthstars

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
4,281
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Lansing area, MI
I was okay with rumors of re-signing Green because our prospects on defense aren't quite ready yet.
I was okay with rumors of Kovalchuk because he will have significant value at the deadline.
But Vanek? Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, but for whatever reason his value is super low. We've seen it deadline after deadline, his team wants a 2nd and maybe a prospect and they get a mid round pick and some scraps. At this point bringing in Vanek is useless. It would be one thing if we had no forward prospects, but we do! Rasmussen, Svechnikov, Turgeon, and possibly Pope will be competing for spots, spots that Vanek would take. Maybe if Nyquist or AA is traded, sure, but you can't bet on that.
If the Helm buyout rumor is to bring in Vanek that's just poor asset management. You're taking on more cap in the future when you may hope to be competitive so you can bring in another vet in your rebuilding years that is marginally better, hell maybe worse depending on how you think of the two defensively.

What Helm buyout rumor are you talking about?
 

njx9

Registered User
Feb 1, 2016
2,161
340
Mmm... yes. Vanek, a guy with no TDL value. This is who we should be signing. Clearly, with all of the past signings of guys like Nielsen and Daley, and the retention of basically every veteran possible, we have absolutely no Veteran Leadership, and thus any kid brought up with basically be left adrift, to fail on a team without a single guy to protect him or show him how to play.

Meh. Whatever, KH is just trying to make sure I don't bother tuning in to watch a game next year, as he ices a bad, boring, slow team.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Sweden
Mmm... yes. Vanek, a guy with no TDL value. This is who we should be signing. Clearly, with all of the past signings of guys like Nielsen and Daley, and the retention of basically every veteran possible, we have absolutely no Veteran Leadership, and thus any kid brought up with basically be left adrift, to fail on a team without a single guy to protect him or show him how to play.

Meh. Whatever, KH is just trying to make sure I don't bother tuning in to watch a game next year, as he ices a bad, boring, slow team.
Vanek/Kovalchuk wouldn't be brought in for leadership, they'd be possible TDL assets as well as fillers for if/when we trade Nyquist/AA/others.
 

njx9

Registered User
Feb 1, 2016
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340
Vanek/Kovalchuk wouldn't be brought in for leadership, they'd be possible TDL assets as well as fillers for if/when we trade Nyquist/AA/others.

Vanek has no TDL value. We got a 3rd (after he was having a great season) and FL got burned. The Canucks got a mediocre prospect and had to take a vet back with him. He's not going to bring back *more* 2 years later.

And the 'fillers' for a trade should come from GR. Signing Vanek or pissing away money and term on Kovalchuk don't really make the team better, and certainly don't make it more fun to watch (though, to be fair, Kovalchuk would be way better than Vanek, in that regard).

I'm fine if we're all in agreement that they're not adding leadership, shielding young players, or whatever other version of the same thing we want to bring up, but it was a theme in earlier posts.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Vanek has no TDL value. We got a 3rd (after he was having a great season) and FL got burned. The Canucks got a mediocre prospect and had to take a vet back with him. He's not going to bring back *more* 2 years later.

And the 'fillers' for a trade should come from GR. Signing Vanek or pissing away money and term on Kovalchuk don't really make the team better, and certainly don't make it more fun to watch (though, to be fair, Kovalchuk would be way better than Vanek, in that regard).
Let's see what happens. We don't have much NHL caliber filler in GR, and we're still in the business of trying to ice a majority of actual NHL players and not fall into the Buffalo/Edmonton traps.
A 1-year deal for cheap really contains no downside. Even a mid-level prospect or a 7th round pick is essentially something for nothing. A 3rd EASILY makes it worth it.

It's hard to know how hard they're going after these rumored FAs. And with word from Holland/Blash indicating several youngsters will be on the roster, as well as strong indications that Wings are looking to make deals at the draft I don't think we can say for sure what the roster will look like. Could be that guys like Vanek/Kovy are what they'll go after IF they get some deals done to ship out players.
 

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