Windsor Spitfires 2021 Offseason Thread

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Give me a 50 point spark-plug in the sixth round and I take it every time. Same with Purboo; 29-goals in 2018-19, over 220 straight games, and leadership... as a ninth-rounder!! Yes, it would have been fantastic to have huge superstars on the team every season, but these guys were given opportunity and ran with them. You give me another dose of their results and I'd gladly take it. Instead of going "they were good but not great", we should be blaming the lack of success on the higher end guys who didn't become "superstars", so to speak.

I think you're missing the point.

These guys make excellent role players, they can compliment a good team. I have no issue with most of them being here as I stated, especially with Boka I would take him every time but as you were saying earlier, give you a team full of guys like this, sprinkle in a few superstars and you're good to go. Well we've had teams full of guys like this, sprinkle in a few superstars and where did we end up?

Each and everyone of these guys contributed something, never said they didn't but they became the core of the team and we became a middle of the pack team that's continuing to spin it's wheels.

Mid/late round guys should do exactly what these guys did in terms of production and play, that's fill a role, contribute when given opportunities that are built around their skillsets etc. Boka and Purboo began to shine offensively when given first line minutes with Luchuk and other much better players while other much better players were buried beneath them. Now if they were putting up 30 goal seasons when this was going on, combined with their other skillsets then they would have been gems. That's not what happened. Purboo put up some goals his last two years, most while standing in front of the net cleaning up rebounds. Boka started to score a few goals but he wasn't contributing much else offensively. They were used out of their normal skillsets and if someone else wasn't making them look good in those situations they weren't producing.

Would take them every time in specific roles but not as the core of a team.

As for leadership.

Purboo certainly wasn't showing much leadership when he started coasting any time he was moved from the first line. There was a lot of drama during Boka's last two years when he wore the C. That's not leadership, that's players having certain expectations and when their expectations weren't met they couldn't get the team on the same page.

As I've also said, a lot of this falls on letowski but you get a letter for a reason and they didn't meet those expectations on a regular basis.
 

OHLTG

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Well we've had teams full of guys like this, sprinkle in a few superstars and where did we end up?

The thing is - we haven't had the superstars, at least at their peak. To me, that would have been 20-21. The original argument was we haven't done much after the third round. I disagreed and gave examples. Those players either met or exceeded expectations. A lack of success isn't on them.
 

windsor7

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The thing is - we haven't had the superstars, at least at their peak. To me, that would have been 20-21. The original argument was we haven't done much after the third round. I disagreed and gave examples. Those players either met or exceeded expectations. A lack of success isn't on them.

3rd line players mostly
 

aresknights

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The thing is - we haven't had the superstars, at least at their peak. To me, that would have been 20-21. The original argument was we haven't done much after the third round. I disagreed and gave examples. Those players either met or exceeded expectations. A lack of success isn't on them.

Every team has similar examples of mid/late rd picks contributing. It's normal. But usually not celebrated when the team doesn't perform.
 

Teflon

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I didn’t say the word never. But a couple of decent mid round picks over the last ten years doesn’t say much. Like I said those players are available all over the league. That’s why imho you trade off those mid and late end picks for anything in the top three rnds. This year there easily could be a few studs that drop that far due to this mess. Almost as easily as there could be some bad missed picked early. If I can I’m grabbing any/every pick in the top 3-4 available. I’d go so far as damn near trade every pick below that to get what I could. Now again, the lack of scouting staff and an inexperienced GM with a meddling ownership group....
 

RayzorIsDull

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I didn’t say the word never. But a couple of decent mid round picks over the last ten years doesn’t say much. Like I said those players are available all over the league. That’s why imho you trade off those mid and late end picks for anything in the top three rnds. This year there easily could be a few studs that drop that far due to this mess. Almost as easily as there could be some bad missed picked early. If I can I’m grabbing any/every pick in the top 3-4 available. I’d go so far as damn near trade every pick below that to get what I could. Now again, the lack of scouting staff and an inexperienced GM with a meddling ownership group....

I think a number of people understood what you were saying. Top 2-3 rounds render more top end players than rounds 4-8. I would say with the caveat of not counting high end players that use NCAA hockey as a ploy to possibly get drafted by and more preferable OHL team.

I am still of the opinion this franchise obviously wants to win but isn't sure of the path in order to win. Then on the other hand they are extremely cognizant of education packages, holding onto players for optic purposes and not wanting to do more than they have to in order to be successful. We don't know this for certain but depending on who was going to play in the AHL this year Bowler said guys like Playfair and Rupoli were going to be in the mix. Playfair had done very little in his career to get deference in regards to an OA spot over a younger player who you can invest the time in to hopefully be a contributing piece for the present and future.

I think the mindset has to change with this organization. Guys like Boka and Purboo had value but they were put up on this pedostal for some reason. Those type of guys are found on 19 other OHL teams yet still some of those teams are still able to contend for a championship because they have much better talent around those guys.
 
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OHLTG

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Overall, yeah, top three rounds bring out better players, but the team has a history of finding success in rounds 4-7. Those players can't be argued; their stats speak for themselves. If we want to to deal picks after the sixth or seventh round, no sweat. But tossing aside picks after the third round, given our history, seems odd to me. I could be alone in it, who knows......
 

ohloutsider

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Sorry don't agree with these theories. Once you get by the second round players become more or less equal. You can't tell me that a player taken at 57th is that much better than a player taken at 65th especially at the time of the draft and being that this year most picks are being determined by bantam level play and stats. There is absolutely no reason to give up picks to get a 3rd round pick when you already have 2 in the 4th round. One of those players will likely be just as good as any 3rd rounder that might have been picked. And really where would there be room on the team for any 3rd or 4th round pick this year? Maybe they develop at junior B but not much room beyond the 2 players you are going to pick in the top 20 this year. In a "normal" year it makes sense but not this year with not much scouting beyond Bowler himself.
 
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member 71782

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Overall, yeah, top three rounds bring out better players, but the team has a history of finding success in rounds 4-7. Those players can't be argued; their stats speak for themselves. If we want to to deal picks after the sixth or seventh round, no sweat. But tossing aside picks after the third round, given our history, seems odd to me. I could be alone in it, who knows......

Windsor had a bunch of those types guys the last few years as you have pointed out, what were the results?

Memorial Cups? - 0
League Championships? - 0
Conference Championships? - 0
Second Round Wins? - 0
First Round Wins? - 0
Playoff Games Won? - 2

That's the team stats with those mid round gems on it, most at the same time.

Luchuck was here for a Memorial Cup, played a third line role most of the season and playoffs and was also the one who sealed the deal to win the Memorial Cup. After that he had a career year here until he was traded which was his OA year.

Outside of that and a few personal stats how do those team stats look to you since most of who you named, not all were here for the years that followed?

2017/18 - 6th in the conference, out in the first round with DiPietro
2018/19 - 8th in the conference, swept in 4 games
2019/20 - 5th in the conference when the season was called with 6 games left after being 1st at the deadline. They were on a 2-5-3-0 over their last 10 games with a 0-1-2-0 streak at the time and playing pretty bad since the deadline, a lot of issues were exposed with that leadership group during that time. No playoffs that year for anyone.

How do those stats look with that group of mid/late round gems? Lots of success with their most recent multi year mid/late round picks.
 

OHLTG

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Sorry, I don't buy that our lack of playoff success means they weren't good picks. If the team has a chance to draft Luchuk, Boka, D'Amico, Carter, Purboo, etc., you do it. Those were heart-and-soul types and every team needs them. If people disagree, so be it.
 

windsor7

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Overall, yeah, top three rounds bring out better players, but the team has a history of finding success in rounds 4-7. Those players can't be argued; their stats speak for themselves. If we want to to deal picks after the sixth or seventh round, no sweat. But tossing aside picks after the third round, given our history, seems odd to me. I could be alone in it, who knows......

If stats so good.
Where the success?
 

windsor7

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Windsor had a bunch of those types guys the last few years as you have pointed out, what were the results?

Memorial Cups? - 0
League Championships? - 0
Conference Championships? - 0
Second Round Wins? - 0
First Round Wins? - 0
Playoff Games Won? - 2

That's the team stats with those mid round gems on it, most at the same time.

Luchuck was here for a Memorial Cup, played a third line role most of the season and playoffs and was also the one who sealed the deal to win the Memorial Cup. After that he had a career year here until he was traded which was his OA year.

Outside of that and a few personal stats how do those team stats look to you since most of who you named, not all were here for the years that followed?

2017/18 - 6th in the conference, out in the first round with DiPietro
2018/19 - 8th in the conference, swept in 4 games
2019/20 - 5th in the conference when the season was called with 6 games left after being 1st at the deadline. They were on a 2-5-3-0 over their last 10 games with a 0-1-2-0 streak at the time and playing pretty bad since the deadline, a lot of issues were exposed with that leadership group during that time. No playoffs that year for anyone.

How do those stats look with that group of mid/late round gems? Lots of success with their most recent multi year mid/late round picks.

Agree completely
 

windsor7

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Sorry, I don't buy that our lack of playoff success means they weren't good picks. If the team has a chance to draft Luchuk, Boka, D'Amico, Carter, Purboo, etc., you do it. Those were heart-and-soul types and every team needs them. If people disagree, so be it.

Success hasn't shown it.
 

RayzorIsDull

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Sorry, I don't buy that our lack of playoff success means they weren't good picks. If the team has a chance to draft Luchuk, Boka, D'Amico, Carter, Purboo, etc., you do it. Those were heart-and-soul types and every team needs them. If people disagree, so be it.

So if they hit it well on those mid round picks but never found team success. Where did they fall short?? Has coaching let them down? Has scouting not hit big on their 1st round picks?? These heart and soul guys haven't led them to much at all and this is what we are getting at. Players can only get so much adulation before the results matter so much more.
 
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KyGuy9

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Sorry don't agree with these theories. Once you get by the second round players become more or less equal. You can't tell me that a player taken at 57th is that much better than a player taken at 65th especially at the time of the draft and being that this year most picks are being determined by bantam level play and stats. There is absolutely no reason to give up picks to get a 3rd round pick when you already have 2 in the 4th round. One of those players will likely be just as good as any 3rd rounder that might have been picked. And really where would there be room on the team for any 3rd or 4th round pick this year? Maybe they develop at junior B but not much room beyond the 2 players you are going to pick in the top 20 this year. In a "normal" year it makes sense but not this year with not much scouting beyond Bowler himself.

I agree with this completely. It's ridiculous to me that the rounds are grouped where 1-3 are seen as that much superior than 4-8. The difference between round 1 players and round 3 players is much greater than that of a round 3 player and round 4 player.

This is not the year to be throwing away a quantity of lottery tickets for perceived quality. Just so dumb that the label of being one round higher is worth throwing away extra quality picks especially with all the complaints of not having enough quality players on the roster. The NHL is seen as having the entire draft basically be a toss-up this year, and that's with older players who most (other than the OHL) have had playing time this year. And here we are thinking the difference between 15 year olds who haven't had a minor midget season is going to be noticeable enough to an inexperienced OHL GM outside of the first round to throw away extra picks.

100/100 times will take two swings 10 picks later over one swing 10 picks earlier when it comes to the mid-rounds.
 

OHLTG

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So if they hit it well on those mid round picks but never found team success. Where did they fall short?? Has coaching let them down? Has scouting not hit big on their 1st round picks?? These heart and soul guys haven't led them to much at all and this is what we are getting at. Players can only get so much adulation before the results matter so much more.

It starts with coaching and lack of production from top players. Take 2019-20 for example; going from third in Canada to a battle for home ice? That was on the coaches, systems, and a lack of consistency from your top players. I've even been critical of all of these things over the last two calendar years. I get it - people are tired of the lack of success. I'm in the same boat. But I'm not about to say "we didn't win in the first round so our mid-round picks were bad, waste of time, etc." I stand by what I said earlier... give me a team of Luchuks, Bokas, Angles, Purboos, D'Amicos, etc., mixed in with your upper-level players producing at the level they should be, and you win games. Having the talent is great but you need the heart-and-soul types to win. The team's lack of post-season success is not on the middle-round guys, by any stretch.
 

windsor7

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It starts with coaching and lack of production from top players. Take 2019-20 for example; going from third in Canada to a battle for home ice? That was on the coaches, systems, and a lack of consistency from your top players. I've even been critical of all of these things over the last two calendar years. I get it - people are tired of the lack of success. I'm in the same boat. But I'm not about to say "we didn't win in the first round so our mid-round picks were bad, waste of time, etc." I stand by what I said earlier... give me a team of Luchuks, Bokas, Angles, Purboos, D'Amicos, etc., mixed in with your upper-level players producing at the level they should be, and you win games. Having the talent is great but you need the heart-and-soul types to win. The team's lack of post-season success is not on the middle-round guys, by any stretch.

Im thinking such a tiny tiny percentage of people think that way.....
 
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RayzorIsDull

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It starts with coaching and lack of production from top players. Take 2019-20 for example; going from third in Canada to a battle for home ice? That was on the coaches, systems, and a lack of consistency from your top players. I've even been critical of all of these things over the last two calendar years. I get it - people are tired of the lack of success. I'm in the same boat. But I'm not about to say "we didn't win in the first round so our mid-round picks were bad, waste of time, etc." I stand by what I said earlier... give me a team of Luchuks, Bokas, Angles, Purboos, D'Amicos, etc., mixed in with your upper-level players producing at the level they should be, and you win games. Having the talent is great but you need the heart-and-soul types to win. The team's lack of post-season success is not on the middle-round guys, by any stretch.

This is good but we really need to break this down further. Let's look at the current roster and construction to see how the high picks vs middle round picks have fared.

2017
1st Staois
5th Henault
6th D'Amico
7th Frasca

2018
1st Foudy, Cuylle (trade)
2nd McDonald
3rd Robinson
3rd Medina

2019
1st Johnston
2nd Zito
4th Jodoin

Seems to me the 1st and 2nd round picks haven't been the issue at all. Johnston has been fine, probably wanted somebody else at that pick but they weren't going to get said player because they weren't going to report. You absolutely were ecstatic over the moon for the Cuylle trade because he was a top 5 pick. Foudy has been good. Staois wasn't very good here and wanted out. You can talk about salvaging picks in a trade but regardless getting back lesser picks for Staois with no player in return is still selling low on a 1st round pick and not leveraging full value from in value of trade as well as performance on ice. I think people here are happy with Zito, McDonald has been interesting because when given the chance he has done good things but that doesn't last long because he's demoted quickly. Not sure on Robinson hasn't done much to date to distinguish himself.

Have the Spits gotten enough out of the 2017 class?? Most likely not. Henault and D'Amico can't carry the weight for a 1st round pick that wasn't great. If all you get out of 2019 is Johnston and Zito that isn't a great draft either unless Johnston turns into a top 5-10 player in the whole league. 2018 should have great showings this year but nobody knows because like you mentioned about coaching.

So in conclusion these 3 drafts collectively are more geared to being top heavy Johnston/Cuylle/Foudy/Zito but definitely lacking 4th round and beyond. So there might be something to be said for wanting to load up and trying to get 3rd and 4th round picks etc.. because since 2019 it's been Jodoin and...... We don't know about 2020 but as of now it was just their 1st and 2 2nd's that have signed. Regardless of where you stand if you're not signing guys after round 2 you can't spin the middle rounds were productive. I can see where Teflon Don is coming from if they slashed scouting and don't have as many eyes absolutely yes load up on 1st/2nd/3rd round picks because after that you're likely not getting very much from this group.
 
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OHLTG

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Why did you stop at 2017? The 2015 and 2016 drafts were still here until the last games we played (Boka, Purboo, Corcoran, Angle, etc). Those cannot be ignored in this case; they were big parts of the team.

Yes, I loved the Cuylle trade. I'm also flat-out saying he hasn't been as good as he can be and I don't think anyone will deny that. Foudy has been good, but was as good as he could be? No. Again, there's no denial there. He should be near a point-per-game (along with Cuylle) but isn't.

Nobody is saying "the middle rounds should carry the first-rounders." There's no reason for that. I'm saying the middle round guys have been good and they're not the reason we're struggling. They've done their jobs.

I'm not "spinning" anything; the stats back this stuff up. From 2015-2018, our middle rounds have been solid as a whole. The 2019 and 2020 drafts are inconclusive because of Covid; those are a wait-and-see situation. Will they turn out as well as the previous ones? Who knows.

If we want to agree to disagree, I don't really care. So be it.
 

windsor7

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Why did you stop at 2017? The 2015 and 2016 drafts were still here until the last games we played (Boka, Purboo, Corcoran, Angle, etc). Those cannot be ignored in this case; they were big parts of the team.

Yes, I loved the Cuylle trade. I'm also flat-out saying he hasn't been as good as he can be and I don't think anyone will deny that. Foudy has been good, but was as good as he could be? No. Again, there's no denial there. He should be near a point-per-game (along with Cuylle) but isn't.

Nobody is saying "the middle rounds should carry the first-rounders." There's no reason for that. I'm saying the middle round guys have been good and they're not the reason we're struggling. They've done their jobs.

I'm not "spinning" anything; the stats back this stuff up. From 2015-2018, our middle rounds have been solid as a whole. The 2019 and 2020 drafts are inconclusive because of Covid; those are a wait-and-see situation. Will they turn out as well as the previous ones? Who knows.

If we want to agree to disagree, I don't really care. So be it.

Yet there has been no success come March n beyond...
 

RayzorIsDull

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Why did you stop at 2017? The 2015 and 2016 drafts were still here until the last games we played (Boka, Purboo, Corcoran, Angle, etc). Those cannot be ignored in this case; they were big parts of the team.

Yes, I loved the Cuylle trade. I'm also flat-out saying he hasn't been as good as he can be and I don't think anyone will deny that. Foudy has been good, but was as good as he could be? No. Again, there's no denial there. He should be near a point-per-game (along with Cuylle) but isn't.

Nobody is saying "the middle rounds should carry the first-rounders." There's no reason for that. I'm saying the middle round guys have been good and they're not the reason we're struggling. They've done their jobs.

I'm not "spinning" anything; the stats back this stuff up. From 2015-2018, our middle rounds have been solid as a whole. The 2019 and 2020 drafts are inconclusive because of Covid; those are a wait-and-see situation. Will they turn out as well as the previous ones? Who knows.

If we want to agree to disagree, I don't really care. So be it.

I started at 2017 because the previous regime of players is long gone. Those individuals have absolute zero bearing on what we are witnessing now and what will happen in the current time as well as years down the road. If the Spits aren't signing the middle round guys we can keep that narrative of prior late round gems but nobody will really care because what matters is how these guys are doing now. I hope nobody here is pining for Boka or Purboo to return but I have a sneaky suspicion that some are.
 

OHLTG

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I started at 2017 because the previous regime of players is long gone. Those individuals have absolute zero bearing on what we are witnessing now and what will happen in the current time as well as years down the road. If the Spits aren't signing the middle round guys we can keep that narrative of prior late round gems but nobody will really care because what matters is how these guys are doing now. I hope nobody here is pining for Boka or Purboo to return but I have a sneaky suspicion that some are.

Why does a player have to return next season to be a part of a "how has the team done recently with mid-rounders?" discussion? Angle, Boka, and Purboo (and Luchuk, too, really) don't just disappear from this because they're not returning. Their stats are complete and are certainly as relevant as anyone now.
 
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