Windsor Spitfires 2019-20 Season Thread (Part 3)

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Just a refresh on the Wsr/Kitch deal from 2009:

Windsor got - Shutron, Timmins, Unice
Kitch got - Lalonde, Maxwell, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd.

At the time, Shutron was an OA, Timmins had one year left, and Unice had one year left.

Maxwell had just turned 18 and Lalonde as an OA.

This would amount to... (age wise) ... OA + 2000 + 2000 for OA + 01 + 2nd/2nd/3rd.

I don't think it's THAT crazy to think we have the assets to pull this off.

Do you think Staois would have went for 3x 2nds plus conditionals back then when it's probably the only place he would report to? Those players usually go for a discount.

How about Maggio for 2x 2nds? Is he better than Shutron/TimminsUnice?

Prices today are what they were back then.

Sure we have the assets to pull off a deal for this player but you aren't addressing the "what's next" part.

You're talking about potentially moving out a similar quality player with two plus years left, plus picks for a half season rental that doesn't improve the team a whole lot on his own.

Why move youth and picks to likely finish in the same spot.

If you want a similar package to compare to your example how about

Jenik/Landry

I know Jenik is an import but just thinking of something quick off the top of my head.

OA D and top line centre. What's that going to cost today if it's not an import?
 

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You're not going to play every game 100%, which is unfortunate but reality. You don't get a 13-game point streak by being lucky; the talent is there. Are they going to get a stud 01 or 02? No. Will a couple of solid moves that don't mortgage the future help? I believe so. They've proven they can compete with the best in the league. I fully realize I'm in the minority here; nothing I'm not used to. The stats are there, though. They're winning games, some by a fair bit, some squeakers. A year ago, we couldn't necessarily say that.

I agree 100% this team is playing better this year and individually as well as a team they're exceeding expectations in many ways.

Again, why make a sideways move that costs you to likely get the same result?

If You needed a car to get around and you had two choices, one that you can afford the insurance and gas for and one that you couldn't afford to drive and costs you twice as much which one are you going to buy?

Further to your example.

Windsor also had to spend assets to acquire Maxwell, a top goaltender before they could get that deal done as well so the overall cost was a bit more than just that deal in isolation.
 

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How do you know we'd finish in the same spot? Moves won't be made to go laterally.

I like the Hamilton idea, but you'd have to deal Piiroinen and they don't have a G that's an upgrade.

Probably/potentially finish in the same spot.

How many contenders who may be interested in him do you think are looking at him as a top pairing D? In Windsor he would likely be their number one D.

The point of the Hamilton example wasn't to suggest it as a deal but to suggest the quality of players as a comparable to Shutron/Timmins/Unice and then compare the costs then to what it would likely be now. I thought that was easy enough to understand. Do you think oyu could get Shutron/Timmins/Unice for the same price today as they did back then? Again, add in the cost to acquire Maxwell who was a better goaltender than Unice and that deal in totality was more expensive then simply the isolated view of the deal between Kitchener and Windsor.

I know you like simply throwing out ideas with no substance but if you want to justify your position or have it make sense to someone like me put some substance into it.

A package deal that would include who else and what would Windsor send back? It's easy to look at individual deals but what are the effects of that deal, what does it accomplish and can Windsor afford to get it done or is it simply moving around the deck chairs while paying for the privilege of moving them around?

What do you think?

Willms/Tucker/Greaves? OA/00/01 is about as close as you will get from the Barrie roster centred around Tucker.

Do you think Stevenson/D'Amico or Henault or Ladd plus 2x 2nds and a 3rd gets it done?
 
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That's what I'm saying - don't make a sideways move.

The earlier Maxwell deal was Yogan + 2nd for Maxwell. At the time, Yogan was similar to what McDonald is now.

Moving a young player, an 02 plus picks for someone that is a vet of similar talent to what we already have, including the 02s is a sideways move at best. It's more of a buyer's move but when you're basically going sideways on the talent level you're giving away a younger version that you already have plus for an older version that doesn't really upgrade the roster much.

For Barrie, who's very similar to Windsor talent wise with fewer assets this would be a sideways move. For Windsor this would be a buyer's move that doesn't really fit the situation.

So add Yogan plus the 2nd to the cost of the Timmins/Shutron/Unice deal and that deal became quite a bit more expensive. Add it simply because without Maxwell Windsor isn't getting that deal done.

Again, the roster was much better when Windsor made that deal and they added better players to it than they would be in this deal.

If Windsor can add a depth addition that doesn't cost them more than a middle round pick I'm all for it. This team needs depth but I don't see them spending to add due to any perceived or potential financial concerns they may have. If people want to move significant assets out, young player(s) and higher end picks in deals that provide minimal upgrade while taking away from the future then that's an issue.

This is a fourth or fifth place team at best this year and an upgrade like this still makes them a fourth or fifth place team at best unless they are going to add much more which I doubt they will but even if they did they likely don't have enough to keep up with the big spenders. Spending assets for the sake of spending assets makes no sense at all.
 

OHLTG

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I know you like simply throwing out ideas with no substance but if you want to justify your position or have it make sense to someone like me put some substance into it.

Here's the issue with throwing out specifics on here - no matter what's said, it's wrong. Time and time again. I could throw a few offers out there and they're wrong. Almost guaranteed.

If I was making a deal with Barrie, I'd do...

Ladd + McDonald + 2nd + 2nd + 4th for Forester + Tucker + 5th.

While I like Ladd, I prefer Tucker's style, so I believe he's an upgrade. Forester is an upgrade on McDonald, who needs playing time. The picks are affordable.
 

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Here's the issue with throwing out specifics on here - no matter what's said, it's wrong. Time and time again. I could throw a few offers out there and they're wrong. Almost guaranteed.

If I was making a deal with Barrie, I'd do...

Ladd + McDonald + 2nd + 2nd + 4th for Forester + Tucker + 5th.

While I like Ladd, I prefer Tucker's style, so I believe he's an upgrade. Forester is an upgrade on McDonald, who needs playing time. The picks are affordable.

Well at least it's something specific but I'm sure you realize not realistic.

Foerester, a right shot 02 centre/RW with more than double the offense as Cuylle, yeah I don't think McDonald/2x 2nds/1x 4th gets a sniff at that. If Barrie is looking for youth I really doubt he's available anyways. If you could get him in a deal like that than what's Cuylle worth, a couple of 4ths?

Tucker is probably a step up from Ladd but again, Ladd will be back next year and likely the year after while Tucker will probably be gone after this season.

I would guess Barrie would probably be looking at McDonald or Robinson plus a 2nd and a couple of 3rds for Tucker.

Yes, the cost in isolation is affordable but is it worth it? If Windsor finishes fourth, with or without him they likely get to the second round. If they finish fifth it's a toss up at this point if they get there with or without him since it would depend on who finishes fifth and if they sold at the deadline or decided to add a bit piece/stand pat.

Move McDonald and Ladd then there's two more pieces to replace next season when Windsor should be a much better team than this year.

At least you came back with something.
 

tomschman

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Have the Russians made done the invites for the World Juniors? I haven't heard that Afansyev has been invited. I would have thought he would have gotten a look,
 

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Have the Russians made done the invites for the World Juniors? I haven't heard that Afansyev has been invited. I would have thought he would have gotten a look,

I believe they said on the broadcast last night that he didn't receive an invite.
 

RayzorIsDull

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The Spits were clear 15-20 points in their division maybe even more than that guaranteed a top 2 seed in 09 when they acquired Timmins and Shutron. This Spits team lacks the star power, and yes the goaltending as well Engelage>>>>>Piiroinen much better in 09. Also they had more picks available in 09 and could trade picks further into the future if they wanted to. It's a total apples and oranges comparison.

It's not a leap to say they are much better than last year. It's a larger leap to say they're actually a contender though.
 

windsor7

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Just a refresh on the Wsr/Kitch deal from 2009:

Windsor got - Shutron, Timmins, Unice
Kitch got - Lalonde, Maxwell, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd.

At the time, Shutron was an OA, Timmins had one year left, and Unice had one year left.

Maxwell had just turned 18 and Lalonde as an OA.

This would amount to... (age wise) ... OA + 2000 + 2000 for OA + 01 + 2nd/2nd/3rd.

I don't think it's THAT crazy to think we have the assets to pull this off.

I dont see that deal being pulled off by bowler
 

RayzorIsDull

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Here's the issue with throwing out specifics on here - no matter what's said, it's wrong. Time and time again. I could throw a few offers out there and they're wrong. Almost guaranteed.

If I was making a deal with Barrie, I'd do...

Ladd + McDonald + 2nd + 2nd + 4th for Forester + Tucker + 5th.

While I like Ladd, I prefer Tucker's style, so I believe he's an upgrade. Forester is an upgrade on McDonald, who needs playing time. The picks are affordable.

Forester is an 02 and has 17 goals in 25 games this year. They're not moving him and Tucker for Ladd and McDonald. They will get more for Tucker just by trading him than including Forester in a trade.
 

Cherrydon

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I believe we need to answer one question. Are we at a talent deficiency or a coaching deficiency? Who really believes we're ready to make a serious run this year? Creasemaster was prior to last weekend. I have not seen anything posted by them since. Right now we have a goaltending crisis based on Kari gone to or at least trying to make the WJC roster for Finland. One or 2 players is not going to bring us to the promised land. Does anyone believe Letowski is even capable to win with a capable roster? I need to answer these questions myself before I worry about any trades involving youth. Remember St Louis went from worst to first with a coaching change. Do I think any OHL coach could lead this roster to the championship. No. We are not that great in either coaching or talent at this moment. We could easily be in 8-9th place in 1 month. We could also be battling for 1st. Which team are we?
 
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OHLTG

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Are we at a talent deficiency or a coaching deficiency?

I think it's a defensive/discipline issue. Too many turnovers, too soft in own zone, and stupid penalties that lead to scoring chances.

Move McDonald and Ladd then there's two more pieces to replace next season when Windsor should be a much better team than this year.

Ladd's replaced with Jodoin and, if you move McDonald, you get a guy who's coming back next season. I still believe we need to upgrade defensively and that means dealing someone.
 
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RayzorIsDull

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I believe we need to answer one question. Are we at a talent deficiency or a coaching deficiency? Who really believes we're ready to make a serious run this year? Creasemaster was prior to last weekend. I have not seen anything posted by them since. Right now we have a goaltending crisis based on Kari gone to or at least trying to make the WJC roster for Finland. One or 2 players is not going to bring us to the promised land. Does anyone believe Letowski is even capable to win with a capable roster? I need to answer these questions myself before I worry about any trades involving youth. Remember St Louis went from worst to first with a coaching change. Do I think any OHL coach could lead this roster to the championship. No. We are not that great in either coaching or talent at this moment. We could easily be in 8-9th place in 1 month. We could also be battling for 1st. Which team are we?

I don't think it's clearly one or the other. It's a bit of both talent and coaching. They don't have a star caliber guy on D in G or up front. Therefore the coaching has to be there consistently. Unfortunately the coach still resorts to old habits eg.. putting on Boka down a goal late. The goaltending is what it is. Unfortunately the eggs are all in the Piiroinen basket, lack of production, poor planning have you this predicament. There isn't a coach out there that could get this team to a title. They will ride it out with Letowski for better or worse and see where it lands them.
 
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RayzorIsDull

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I think it's a defensive/discipline issue. Too many turnovers, too soft in own zone, and stupid penalties that lead to scoring chances.



Ladd's replaced with Jodoin and, if you move McDonald, you get a guy who's coming back next season. I still believe we need to upgrade defensively and that means dealing someone.

So Ladd 19 years old next year would just be replaced by 4th round 17 year old Jodoin next year??? That makes absolutely zero sense.
 

windsor7

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Forester is an 02 and has 17 goals in 25 games this year. They're not moving him and Tucker for Ladd and McDonald. They will get more for Tucker just by trading him than including Forester in a trade.

Agreed.
Windsor has no leverage.
 

windsor7

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I don't think it's clearly one or the other. It's a bit of both talent and coaching. They don't have a star caliber guy on D in G or up front. Therefore the coaching has to be there consistently. Unfortunately the coach still resorts to old habits eg.. putting on Boka down a goal late. The goaltending is what it is. Unfortunately the eggs are all in the Piiroinen basket, lack of production, poor planning have you this predicament. There isn't a coach out there that could get this team to a title. They will ride it out with Letowski for better or worse and see where it lands them.

Guess the owners dont or wont spend the money to buy tbe coaching staff out. Sux all around.
 

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I believe we need to answer one question. Are we at a talent deficiency or a coaching deficiency? Who really believes we're ready to make a serious run this year? Creasemaster was prior to last weekend. I have not seen anything posted by them since. Right now we have a goaltending crisis based on Kari gone to or at least trying to make the WJC roster for Finland. One or 2 players is not going to bring us to the promised land. Does anyone believe Letowski is even capable to win with a capable roster? I need to answer these questions myself before I worry about any trades involving youth. Remember St Louis went from worst to first with a coaching change. Do I think any OHL coach could lead this roster to the championship. No. We are not that great in either coaching or talent at this moment. We could easily be in 8-9th place in 1 month. We could also be battling for 1st. Which team are we?

As Rayzor said it's both.

As I mentioned earlier someone posted Windsor has three second lines, that makes for some good depth but they lack star power up front and are likely two forwards short of a true top line for a contending team. While others better positioned than Windsor have a true top line they're looking for top tier talent to fill out their second line. Even if Windsor could add the pieces up front they would have a top six that may be a step below what the likely contenders would have. Their strength would come from a third and fourth line that would both be above average so they would have the ability to roll four lines in the playoffs.

On D they likely need to D. A true number one and a solid shutdown/defensive D that can add a bit of offense. Corcoran has stepped up this year but on any contender he would likely be a middle pairing D. If you can add a top tier D they could probably get away with Corcoran being paired with him. Adding that solid second pairing D with experience and a bit of offense for the second pair shifts someone down a bit or likely Robinson moved in a deal to make the changes. Can Rafkin, Henault or Ladd step up and be that solid middle pairing D on a contender? That remains to be scene. They're all decent but not the most high end but like Corcoran if you could get the right fit it could work.

In goal they need a number one who has proven themselves a bit more than Piiroinen. Yes he's improved but he has a ways to go to be leading a team to a championship. Being an import though and becoming a back up becomes a wasted import slot that could be better used elsewhere.

Our OAs are OK. Boka and Purboo could be decent role players if they chose not to upgrade them but they would have to drop way down the line up. Stevenson would have to go. He was playing top minutes with Corcoran before his injury but he was a question mark to even make the team this year so it's a bit of a stretch, no matter how much he's improved to think he can go from fighting for a roster spot to a top pairing D in this league.

Since at least two of the OAs are out of the question in terms of upgrades the costs go up significantly to add either top 2000s or 2001s. Most top 2000s are already on contenders while the few remaining will be tough to get. Even tougher, the better options are the top 01s who would cost even more and while looking at Windsor's assets/draft picks they are lean when comparing what they have in assets compared to what they need for their roster when comparing those same two criteria to other likely contenders.

We are deficient in high end talent, decent depth and our coaching is as much of a question mark as it was two years ago. Letowski has made some improvements at times but when things get a bit tough then, as we saw yesterday he resorts to old habits. He along with the team in general has been better but so far he hasn't proven, like the team the ability to sustain and build on any success they've had this year. I'm not worried that they've lost three games in a row, it happens. My concern is how they've played losing those three games. Going back to old habits, players and coaches is not a good sign, it shows they are struggling to find a way out of tough times when things aren't going their way.

This is a good team that has played better than expected with a bright future if they manage things right. As is they're not a contender or even close to being one but they have a solid foundation for future success and the potential, if they get on a role to potentially pull off an upset in the playoffs in the right match up, a fifth versus fourth seed scenario.

The problem with standing pat or adding a bit this year is you are taking pieces away from the solid foundation they're building for next year and the year after.
 

OHLTG

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So Ladd 19 years old next year would just be replaced by 4th round 17 year old Jodoin next year??? That makes absolutely zero sense.

You'd still have Corcoran, Henault, Robinson, and Rafkin, plus potentially another. Should someone be dealt, no matter who it really is, Jodoin replaces them next season if the player does not return.
 

RayzorIsDull

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You'd still have Corcoran, Henault, Robinson, and Rafkin, plus potentially another. Should someone be dealt, no matter who it really is, Jodoin replaces them next season if the player does not return.

If Corcoran returns.... You're dealing in your little fantasy land. Yes Jodoin will go in the lineup but if they idea is to contend that isn't going to make your team better. This is still a team that is giving up far too many goals against and their goaltending is in flux.
 
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If Corcoran returns.... You're dealing in your little fantasy land. Yes Jodoin will go in the lineup but if they idea is to contend that isn't going to make your team better. This is still a team that is giving up far too many goals against and their goaltending is in flux.

I could see them being more asset challenged next year.

Move Ladd plus a couple of seconds, use their two seconds from this years draft then have three seconds to be buyers with next year.

That'll take them far.
 
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