Win Now vs Development

[Johansen2Foligno]

Both.

Who are we firing, though?

Wennberg.

 

[CBJx614]

One of the arguments against trading Panarin/Bob would be Jarmo's awful first round draft record below pick #8.

Dano, Rychel, Wennberg (2013)
Milano (2014)
Carlsson (2015) too early to evaluate
Foudy (2017) same

2013 and 2014 don't look very good as of today.

Imo 2015 could possibly be one of the best drafys in CBJ history depending on how Carlsson and Gavrikov turn out.

 

[major major]

I don't think we are in win now mode right now. There are clearly a couple of steps left to take to hang with TOR and TBL from a talent perspective. If Bob and Panarin walk, they go back to the beginning of the development path in my opinion. If Bob and Panarin stay, they should go into win now more for the next 2-3 years starting next year while they are at the top of their game.

If I thought we were definitely going to be at our best in 3 years, and Jarmo would draft a couple star forwards to put us at TBL level, I'd agree that there isn't much point in going for it now. Trade away Panarin/Bob if they won't sign and get some picks.

But I don't think that's likely - we're probably not going to be much better than we are now, and really few teams ever get to the level that the TBL are at right now. They're unquestionably better than everyone else. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying. There isn't a team in the league that can't be beat in a 7 game series. The Jackets would have a decent shot against anyone.

 

[SuperGenius]

Seems to me that there's a third option - stay the course with who you have, make some tweaks and then see what happens in the postseason.

I don't really think of this team as a 'cup' contender, but I do think of them as a challenger that could make things interesting if they win a round (or two). For that reason I am not inclined to trade picks for players, but I am also not inclined to trade players for picks. I know this is the Internet, but there is a middle ground here that OP is missing.

 

[major major]

Seems to me that there's a third option - stay the course with who you have, make some tweaks and then see what happens in the postseason.

I don't really think of this team as a 'cup' contender, but I do think of them as a challenger that could make things interesting if they win a round (or two). For that reason I am not inclined to trade picks for players, but I am also not inclined to trade players for picks. I know this is the Internet, but there is a middle ground here that OP is missing.

I might agree, but I'm not sure how the Panarin/Bob trade or not trade decision fits in this. That decision is almost certainly going to be more important than what other moves we make. Is it "stay the course" if we let them play out their deals and walk? There isn't a neutral option.

 

[major major]

However, I do see the argument of "you don't know how prospects/picks will develop. Go for it now." It's a really tough call.

It's funny how the negatives on either side are the most persuasive to some. "We kind of suck" and "Our prospects will suck anyways" are somehow the strongest arguments around here.

I'll turn it around to the positive, as I sometimes do. I think we could draft some good players with those picks, but we've got a solid core now that it would be a shame to waste. If the player we forego drafting is as good as Nutivaara or Josh Anderson I might still say go for it. If the player is as good as Sebastian Aho or Brayden Point, then of course no, you go for the pick.

 

[SuperGenius]

I might agree, but I'm not sure how the Panarin/Bob trade or not trade decision fits in this. That decision is almost certainly going to be more important than what other moves we make. Is it "stay the course" if we let them play out their deals and walk? There isn't a neutral option.

Sure, why not?

I'm not really convinced they must get something for either or both guys just to get something. Of course I would prefer they sign both, sign one or trade and get something - but it depends on what that something is. some picks and a project? nah. On another hand, if Bob and Panarin were available as free rentals we'd take them without blinking - and at this point, free rentals are what they are. The return would never be 0 - at worst it would be a ton of cap space.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

nm

 

[Old Guy]

The Panarin/Bob situations muddy this up pretty badly. If the 2 were signed, I'd push the envelope a bit for winning now. .

What CR said perfectly states where Old Guy is on this question. My default is always for "draft and develop". I could be convinced to "go for it" if Bread and Bob were going to be here, but they are not guaranteed to do so today. Therefore, I revert to my default.

I'm excited about some of the CBJ prospects. It sure looks like they have found a #1 center for the long run. He still has 1 1/2 years remaining on his ELC. Between Texier, Foudy, Stenlund, Vigneault, and Thurkauf, the CBJ should have a 2nd and 3rd line center. The jury is still out on Sedlak and Wennberg helping the CBJ for the long run.

The blue line of the club looks awesome. You start with Jones, Werenski, and Murray. The oldest guy on there is Savard at 28. I still think Nutivaara was Jarmo's greatest draft find of his CBJ tenure. Plus the CBJ have Gavirokv, Peeke, and Carlsson still to come. There is going to be a logjam which will need cleared at some point in the future.

I would hate to see the CBJ trade high draft picks. The players they pick this year and next will be coming into the league just about the time Crosby, Malkin, and Ovi begin to slow down or step aside. Keep building.

 

[EDM]

We can win now. And next season too if we had an aggressive GM. Duchene will b a UFA. Sign him. Period. We will have plenty of cap space. Use Duchene with Bjork as the basis of a real second line. Plug in Duclair, Milano of Foligno in at LW. As for replacing Panarin, get Eric Staal & play him at LW. A line of Staal, PLD & Cam would be very very good. Not really sure about goalies who will be UFA.

 

[Viqsi]

Also, I have to ask, when people say go for it, do they mean picking up some hefty rentals? Or do we mean just plugging some holes like the Cole and Vanek acquisitions?

That's my "go for it" perspective. Specifically, I'm interested in an upgrade at the #2C position. I'd prefer picking up someone ready now who can stick around for a few years, but short-term improvement is also acceptable. I'm also willing to accept the possibility that the upgrade will come from within by way of Wennberg learning to shoot more often, but that seems rather improbable at this point.

 

[onetimerguy]

Seems like the opinions are pretty well split 50/50 on this question. Good discussion. Actually don't feel like this team is a contender as currently built. They fight for every win, probably make a playoff appearance, but not enough to go beyond that. Talent level (coaching) just doesn't match up with the good teams. It will be interesting if they decide to go all in while having Panarin and Bob, or decide to pull the plug based on the outlook. Should make the trade deadline very interesting.

 

[Cowumbus]

We should try to have some sort of postseason success, seeing that we have had zero.

Acquire people such as Nyquist, and RHD and see what happens.

 

[Madifer]

Im not going to lie, CBJ attracted my attention when Bob won his first Vezina, plus me being genetically half russian plays a role as well.

The thing is that I have learned to like this team and I really hope that this milestone in history will develop in a good way. The team is clearly on a major crossroad and the management will have to play very high stakes poker for the team to come out as a winner and to explore uncharted territory of having PO success and maybe even more. If the management fails though then I fear that the team risks becoming less than a PO bubble. The downtrend can last for years as we all know.

I will refrain from giving my opinion on certain things simply because I might not be knowledgeable enough.

I think we all agree that this is possibly the most challenging year in franchises history. I dont only mean resigning Bob and Bread but in general. As Pitts and WSH keep aging, CBJ can be the big winner in its division. Or not.

 

[Crede777]

I think the team has assembled its core minus a 2nd line C barring a major development from a prospect or Wennberg.

Whether the core is willing to stay is up to them. But the plan going forward should be to try to win until the situation forces you to lose. Then you start the rebuild. If you miss out on a few middling picks or prospects in the meantime, so be it.

Don't give up a projected top-10 pick or a great prospect. But this team can easily forego some late 1st or 2nd rounders and prospects that the team has lost faith in.

 

[Madifer]

Torts has softened up in my opinion. He is complaining about the league being too vanilla yet he himself isnt that brutal force he used to be.

Im not sure how he coaches the guys but I see a possibly very intelligent person beyond the mask he is wearing.

Can he still play the right melody on their brain; which would make them love the game even more and to show exceptional team work and individual skills.

Tortz did just that last year with the Caps. They were perfect in the PO and listened to the coach. Can CBJ with Tortz get on that level? Im sure most guys arent just young millionaires who gained wealth at the expense of their passion and love for the game.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I'm of the opinion that this team should make a few tweaks, keep Bread and Bob and see what they can do in the postseason. I'm not at all in favor of selling if the team is in a solid position at the deadline. I'm also not sure I want them to mortgage the future either. I'm not eager to see the team suffer for several seasons as the cost of "going for it" for this one season. If they can get a solid center as a rental or a guy that can last a few seasons and add a little depth for the post-season I'd be happy.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Yeah, I don't think trading Panarin or Bobrovsky is on the table. I don't see anyone making an offer that will blow them away

 

[SuperGenius]

Seems like the opinions are pretty well split 50/50 on this question. Good discussion. Actually don't feel like this team is a contender as currently built. They fight for every win, probably make a playoff appearance, but not enough to go beyond that. Talent level (coaching) just doesn't match up with the good teams. It will be interesting if they decide to go all in while having Panarin and Bob, or decide to pull the plug based on the outlook. Should make the trade deadline very interesting.

Explain this.

 

[onetimerguy]

Explain this.

The Talent vs Coaching could be its own thread.

Is it the talent? As with many teams, CBJ has some players that just don't seem to have a lot of skill. Hustle yes, (Sedlak, Dubi, Nash, Harrington.....), skills, maybe not so much.

But they also have some fine players like Panarin, PLD, Atkinson, Jones, Werenski. These 5 alone should be a fine PP unit, but they aren't on the same PP unit. We have Wenny and captain Nick often on the 1st pp unit, and they just don't put the puck in the net.

Also lines (and coaching duties for that matter) are constantly juggled. Some players benched, others never held to account. Just no consistency.

So is the talent on par with Tampa, Toronto, Nashville or others, or is the talent on the team not being used to the fullest? Probably a bit of both.

I think the team has a punchers chance of winning a payoff series, but a cup, not so much. That's why they just don't seem to match up well with the better teams.

 

[major major]

The Talent vs Coaching could be its own thread.

Is it the talent? As with many teams, CBJ has some players that just don't seem to have a lot of skill. Hustle yes, (Sedlak, Dubi, Nash, Harrington.....), skills, maybe not so much.

But they also have some fine players like Panarin, PLD, Atkinson, Jones, Werenski. These 5 alone should be a fine PP unit, but they aren't on the same PP unit. We have Wenny and captain Nick often on the 1st pp unit, and they just don't put the puck in the net.

Also lines (and coaching duties for that matter) are constantly juggled. Some players benched, others never held to account. Just no consistency.

So is the talent on par with Tampa, Toronto, Nashville or others, or is the talent on the team not being used to the fullest? Probably a bit of both.

I think the team has a punchers chance of winning a payoff series, but a cup, not so much. That's why they just don't seem to match up well with the better teams.

I'll agree with you on the PP part. We're long overdue to see this:

------------- Jones
Werenski - Atkinson - Panarin
------------- Dubois

It's seeming more and more likely that Torts just doesn't have a clue about the PP.

Our 5v5 lines, on the other hand, are more consistent than most clubs, believe it or not. And if you think Torts isn't holding players to account, I'd ask whether you were around under Coach Richards, where a players ice time was rarely adjusted to performance.

 

[Viqsi]

I'll agree with you on the PP part. We're long overdue to see this:

------------- Jones
Werenski - Atkinson - Panarin
------------- Dubois

It's seeming more and more likely that Torts just doesn't have a clue about the PP.

Our 5v5 lines, on the other hand, are more consistent than most clubs, believe it or not. And if you think Torts isn't holding players to account, I'd ask whether you were around under Coach Richards, where a players ice time was rarely adjusted to performance.

My favorite indicator of talent level in that regard is how consistently vicious this team is in reduced even-strength situations (4on4, 3on3), where talent arguably has a greater impact.

 

[JacketsDavid]

I get into the old school thinking a bit too much that a hot goalie can take a team to the cup. Doesn't seem to be the trend as much any more (now it seems offensive talent does win out more so than a hot goal tender).
Still I don't want to see us sell if we are playing this well (in standings). Maybe the schedule (as some has alluded to) will catch up to us and playing better teams will put us back in the pack, but right now I'd rather stand pat and make some moves to improve rather than sell.

 

[EspenK]

Explain this.

Hard to argue that we don't have skill with Panarin, PLD, Cam, Jones, Werenski & Bob. Wennberg, OB, Duclair are skilled they either don't show it (Wennie) or are given limited opportunites to exhibit it.

Where the problem lies is below that tier and in the overall consistency of the team. Many games the Jackets are flailing around and then boom a play happens and a goal is scored. You watch TB for example and their skill is deep and is on constant display.

A big part of me says it is coaching. Torts, I believe, is on record saying he doesn't teach offense. I would love to see what Babcock or Cooper could get out of this team. My hunch is more.

Purely one guys opinion without relying on stats just my eyes and intuition.

 

[thebus88]

Hard to argue that we don't have skill with Panarin, PLD, Cam, Jones, Werenski & Bob. Wennberg, OB, Duclair are skilled they either don't show it (Wennie) or are given limited opportunites to exhibit it.

Where the problem lies is below that tier and in the overall consistency of the team. Many games the Jackets are flailing around and then boom a play happens and a goal is scored. You watch TB for example and their skill is deep and is on constant display.

A big part of me says it is coaching. Torts, I believe, is on record saying he doesn't teach offense. I would love to see what Babcock or Cooper could get out of this team. My hunch is more.

Purely one guys opinion without relying on stats just my eyes and intuition.

You don't have a realistic opinion on how good most of our players are in relation to these other teams.

Yes, there are a couple/few teams like TB that clearly have some "higher end" offensive players than us, but they ARENT THAT MUCH BETTER than OUR "high end" guys and the case could EASILY be made that DEFENSIVELY and DEPTHWISE, the CBJ are the better team.

For all you guys that STILL want to hate on "barely top liners", Cam and Dubois, our 1-2 in Panarin and Jones, and all 4 if adding the other 2, ARE RIGHT THERE WITH THE TOP TEAMS.

Just wait till the Murray-Jones pair begins to get LEGIT RECOGNITION leading up to and into the playoffs.