Value of: William Nylander

[Martin Skoula]

I was not the one who brought up the Habs signing Pietrangelo and retaining and then flipping him for Nylander. It started there. And I have spoken to Nylanders value several times. He's a good 2nd tier offensive forward but he's no star RW where the Habs need to drop all our plans cause he becomes available.

Nylander likely 15-31 range mix in terms of RW players in the NHL. Voracek, Meier, Oshie, Gallagher, Dadonov, Boeser, Toffoli, Bailey, Eberle, Arvidsson, Mantha, Konecny, Keller. Some Leafs fans acting like he is like Kucherov, Pasta, Kane, Rantanen, Wheeler, Marner, Stone, Tarasenko, Laine. You can make the argument he is in the 10-15 range though. But that applies to lots of other players too.

I have not disrespected Nylander one bit. But Leafs fans have disrespected Habs players like Gallagher, Caufield, Tatar, Domi though.

Why has Nylander not played LW with the Leafs in recent seasons though? Marner, Nylander, Kapanen as RW and Hyman, Kerfoot, Mikheyev, and Johnson as LW depth. Seems like if Nylander was effective at LW, there is a open spot for him to be the #1 LW?

He got LW minutes as soon as Babcock left. Keefe is going to run him at all 3 forward positions the same way he did with the Marlies probably.

 

[Unbiased Fan]

If the cap was's flat yes. But that's not the reality we face this off season. Not many have cap space to work with.

Ottawa, Detroit, Colorado, Arizona, Calgary, etc

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

What I've learned from this thread.

Leafs LD depth


Habs RW depth


And Nylander is the best pace car ever.

 

[Mal Reynolds]

*snip*..... And I have spoken to Nylanders value several times. He's a good 2nd tier offensive forward but he's no star RW where the Habs need to drop all our plans cause he becomes available.

Nylander likely 15-31 range mix in terms of RW players in the NHL. Voracek, Meier, Oshie, Gallagher, Dadonov, Boeser, Toffoli, Bailey, Eberle, Arvidsson, Mantha, Konecny, Keller. Some Leafs fans acting like he is like Kucherov, Pasta, Kane, Rantanen, Wheeler, Marner, Stone, Tarasenko, Laine. You can make the argument he is in the 10-15 range though. But that applies to lots of other players too. *snip*

Safe to say we have very different perceptions of what "2nd tier offensive forward" means, because I read that paragraph as a pretty firm definition that he's a first liner... don't really consider that 2nd tier (and he's definitely better than some of those names you reeled off and arguably better than others to boot)

I guess when you say 2nd tier, you mean he's not elite..... which is probably a fair comment

Not a fan of either team so no real horse in this race but just found that whole line of reasoning a bit odd in light of this last bit you wrote. So some first line players are 2nd tier offensive talents.... ok... good to know

 

[Habs Halifax]

Safe to say we have very different perceptions of what "2nd tier offensive forward" means, because I read that paragraph as a pretty firm definition that he's a first liner... don't really consider that 2nd tier (and he's definitely better than some of those names you reeled off and arguably better than others to boot)

I guess when you say 2nd tier, you mean he's not elite..... which is probably a fair comment

Not a fan of either team so no real horse in this race but just found that whole line of reasoning a bit odd in light of this last bit you wrote. So some first line players are 2nd tier offensive talents.... ok... good to know

Correct. His contract of $6.9M indicates he is a 2nd tier talent and not elite. Certainly top line type production cause I have him in the 15-31 range in terms of RW NHL talent. An argument can be made he is in the 10-15 range.

 

[Big Muddy]

So someone has to go. 13m for 8 players and one of those is the starting goalie who is getting a raise. Unless they don’t sign Hyman and fill the roster with league minimum players but that doesn’t seem like a winning formula for a cap team.

ideally for the leafs it’s one of the big 3 but with a flat cap they won’t get the value they should for guys like that and they only suit contending teams who generally don’t have 10m in free cap.

Isn't the minimum amount a team carries 21 players?

But yes, difficult situation for the Buds, especially in 2020-21 as you have stated. Suspect you'll still get push back & arguing from fellow nation members though minimizing the pickle we are in. Lots of the faithful prefer to stick in blue sky territory.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Your going to trade Nylander for a LD who is an upgrade on Rielly, Muzzin, Sandin and force some guys to play RD? Solid plan bud.

If that LD is an upgrade on Rielly then he is one of the best defenders in the league so the leafs would probably think long and hard about that trade.

Just as simple as moving Marleau cause his salary is attractive to cap floor teams eh? If you need to trade from a position of strength, why you going to trade Nylander for a LD and do it all over again?

Your simple is weird to me.

Marleau trade was extremely different.... he would only waive for SJ or a team willing to buy him out right away so he could sign with SJ. Not many teams like to piss like 4 million dollars (or whatever it was) straight into the wind with no immediate impact.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If that LD is an upgrade on Rielly then he is one of the best defenders in the league so the leafs would probably think long and hard about that trade.

Marleau trade was extremely different.... he would only waive for SJ or a team willing to buy him out right away. Not many teams like to piss like 4 million dollars (or whatever it was) straight into the wind with no immediate impact.

Curious about Marleau... why did he get traded before his July 1st signing bonus money where the Canes paid it? I believe they paid that right? Maybe Rogers/Bell have drawn the line in the sand with the July signing bonus money at this stage? I think it's around $70M ish. That's well above any other team! MLSE is a very profitable business but Rogers/Bell/Tanenbaum have to agree on that amount of money to fork out before those profits come in.

You would think that the Leafs would have waited, paid the bonus, and then tried to move him where the price would not be a 1st? Seems weird to me

 

[Big Muddy]

Every single team is f***ed due to covid. Let's not make this a Leaf thing.

Andersen won't get much of a raise if he is even extended. He hasn't gotten it done when it counted and just had his worse year as a Leaf. Hyman will get a good raise but nothing crazy.. He has played with either JT or Matthews nearly his entire career as a Leaf (odd time with Kadri). Still very valuable but not a 7M+ type signing.

But anyways, there will be changes. That's how sports work. We've heard we're f***ed and can't keep anyone for 5 years now. We were supposed to lose everyone last summer too but Dubas got out of the Marleau deal. He got out of the Zaitsev deal. If Marner has to go some day, then he has to go. But he will be returning a haul that will help the Leafs remain competitive meaning likely includes a good dman and futures, along with a short term cap dump.

Every single team? No.

Even right now, 18 teams are below the $81.5 m maximum cap. "Some" teams would have been a better way to express this.

And, I'm a little less convinced that teams will be enthused about trading a promising, good ELC RD defender plus a 1st. Good young players on cheap contracts (especially RDs) will fetch premium returns over the next 3 years I would imagine. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Isn't the minimum amount a team carries 21 players?

But yes, difficult situation for the Buds, especially in 2020-21 as you have stated. Suspect you'll still get push back & arguing from fellow nation members though minimizing the pickle we are in. Lots of the faithful prefer to stick in blue sky territory.

20 I though?

 

[Big Muddy]

20 I though?

You could be right. I definitely wouldn't argue the point, and was just thinking out loud & going from memory.

I don't think I've seen too many 20-man rosters on CapFriendly though. I wasn't thinking about a rule in my post, just what is customary.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You could be right. I definitely wouldn't argue the point, and was just thinking out loud & going from memory.

I don't think I've seen too many 20-man rosters on CapFriendly though. I wasn't thinking about a rule in my post, just what is customary.

I think the Leafs did it several times this past season. Not 100% sure though. Do you count players on IR? I don't

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Curious about Marleau... why did he get traded before his July 1st signing bonus money where the Canes paid it? I believe they paid that right? Maybe Rogers/Bell have drawn the line in the sand with the July signing bonus money at this stage? I think it's around $70M ish. That's well above any other team! MLSE is a very profitable business but Rogers/Bell/Tanenbaum have to agree on that amount of money to fork out before those profits come in.

You would think that the Leafs would have waited, paid the bonus, and then tried to move him where the price would not be a 1st? Seems weird to me

I think it had to do with offersheet protection on Marner as I believe he was traded before his signing bonus was paid out. I don't recall the exact details but it was a very different trade than traditional cap dumps. Yup the leafs owner are definitely taking advantage of signing bonuses as a way to combat the high ontario taxes.

The price was always going to be high as a buyout was a condition of the trade or at least a handshake agreement. Not many teams like trading for a player to pay him while he is playing against them on another team.

 

[FerrisRox]

But i think what youre forgetting is that nylander would struggle without better players on his team. Clearly that is not an issue with the guy they havent drafted yet

No, the issue would be exactly the same for anyone they drafted.

The point is, why would you trade for a player paying the price of a 37-goal, 70 point forward if you think, by removing him from a high end centre, he would be more like a 25-goal 50 point forward for your team?

It's not that complicated to understand.

 

[FerrisRox]

Holtz can play both wings and is a piece for the future. Take away Holtz and Ylonen and you will come to this conclusion... Gallagher, Caufield (Kovalchuk as a bridge) and Armia.

Keep trying to not understand. You are doing a fine job at it. RW is not a piece we need to trade for.

I don't think the issue is that people don't understand, I think the problem is that you are making a ridiculous argument.

Talking about a teams "depth" while including a guy that plays for the Washington Capitals and another guy that hasn't been drafted by the club is absolutely absurd.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No, the issue would be exactly the same for anyone they drafted.

The point is, why would you trade for a player paying the price of a 37-goal, 70 point forward if you think, by removing him from a high end centre, he would be more like a 25-goal 50 point forward for your team.

It's not that complicated to understand.

Said the same thing to Joe Dirt yesterday and he won't understand.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think the issue is that people don't understand, I think the problem is that you are making a ridiculous argument.

Talking about a teams "depth" while including a guy that plays for the Washington Capitals and another guy that hasn't been drafted by the club is absolutely absurd.

It's not absurd when you look at the overall context and avoid the tunnel vision on Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen while you ignore Gallagher, Caufield, and Armia. Nylander is not the type where you drop everything cause he is available as a RW. Habs adding Nylander who wants to be a Leafs where we block Caufield from our top 6 or we don't have room to sign Gallagher is dumb

It's not that complicated to understand and Kovalchuk is heavily rumored to re-sign with the Habs. Habs would have traded him to another team vs the Caps if they did not have a conversation about that. Regardless, Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen are just a part of the conversation, not the entire one like you focused on

Take Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen out of the picture if you want. I'm sure you are smart enough to see what's left at RW. Shaw was moved out for a reason

 

[FerrisRox]

It's not that complicated to understand and Kovalchuk is heavily rumored to re-sign with the Habs.

No he's not "heavily rumoured" to resign with Montreal. It was merely suggested at the time of his trade that he might return to Montreal as a free agent. Even if it was a slam dunk that he was returning, listing a guy who will turn 38 next year as evidence of depth does a lot more to argue against the point rather than for it.

Habs would have traded him to another team vs the Caps if they did not have a conversation about that.

You have zero evidence to support this claim.

Regardless, Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen are just a part of the conversation, not the entire one like you focused on

Listing three players who will *not* be on the ice for the Canadiens when they return and counting them as part of their enviable depth at that position is laughable. Again, you are proving his point, not your own, and the fact that you don't see this is odd.

Take Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen out of the picture if you want. I'm sure you are smart enough to see what's left at RW. Shaw was moved out for a reason

What's left is a group of right wingers that would be enormously upgraded by the addition of William Nylander. That you would even begin to argue this point is silly.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Did the Habs get permission from teams 4-8 to make sure Holtz will be there at 9 and I missed the memo?

Trusting NHL mock draft is a sure way to look wrong but draftsite.com, mynhldraft.com, and tankathon.com all have Holtz going 7 or 8.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No he's not "heavily rumoured" to resign with Montreal. It was merely suggested at the time of his trade that he might return to Montreal as a free agent. Even if it was a slam dunk that he was returning, listing a guy who will turn 38 next year as evidence of depth does a lot more to argue against the point rather than for it.



You have zero evidence to support this claim.



Listing three players who will *not* be on the ice for the Canadiens when they return and counting them as part of their enviable depth at that position is laughable. Again, you are proving his point, not your own, and the fact that you don't see this is odd.



What's left is a group of right wingers that would be enormously upgraded by the addition of William Nylander. That you would even begin to argue this point is silly.

Bergevin said it himself that he had better offers vs the Caps. It is a heavy rumor that Kovalchuk will return to Montreal. With a flat cap growth? I think the probability is even better. I have not said it was a guarantee like you are pretending or focusing on... keep going though

Regardless, It's not the sole focus of my overall point. Habs adding Nylander and either blocking Caufield from our top 6 or loosing Gallagher cause we have less cap space is dumb. Gallagher, Caufield (Kovalchuk or anyone as a bridge), Armia is a solid top 3 RW's. Nylander is good but not that good. Your absurd narrative is BS cause you are cherry picking parts of the overall context! You are spending way too much time on Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen and not enough on Gallagher, Caufield, and Armia.

Habs needs are LW power forward and LD. Not RW

 

[Habs Halifax]

Did the Habs get permission from teams 4-8 to make sure Holtz will be there at 9 and I missed the memo?

Trusting NHL mock draft is a sure way to look wrong but draftsite.com, mynhldraft.com, and tankathon.com all have Holtz going 7 or 8.

Just a target that could very well not be there at 9 or we win the lottery and take Lafrieniere. Focusing on Holtz is dumb IMO cause he was a small part of a large context. Nowhere did I say we get him for sure.

Saying the Habs should be drooling over Nylander is comical you guys.

 

[FerrisRox]

Bergevin said it himself that he had better offers vs the Caps.

Kovalchuk said there were better offers from other teams but that Bergevin let him choose the team he wanted to go to. This in no way, shape, or form indicates that he will return to the Canadiens next fall, nor does it mean the Canadiens want to bring him back.

It is a heavy rumor that Kovalchuk will return to Montreal. With a flat cap growth? I think the probability is even better. I have not said it was a guarantee like you are pretending or focusing on... keep going though

So let me get this straight: You are listing Kovalchuk among the depth at right wing for Montreal and you are falsely claiming that he is "heavily rumoured" to be returning to Montreal, but in the next breath you are claiming that *I* am the one pretending you have guaranteed his return?

Are you serious, Clark?

Regardless, It's not the sole focus of my overall point. Habs adding Nylander and either blocking Caufield from our top 6 or loosing Gallagher cause we have less cap space is dumb. Gallagher, Caufield (Kovalchuk or anyone as a bridge), Armia is a solid top 3 RW's. Nylander is good but not that good. Your absurd narrative is BS cause you are cherry picking parts of the overall context! You are spending way too much time on Kovalchuk, Holtz, and Ylonen and not enough on Gallagher, Caufield, and Armia.

My absurd narrative? What are you talking about? I don't have any narrative at all, I'm just disputing your silly claim that Montreal "doesn't want" Nylander because of their depth at right wing.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Kovalchuk said there were better offers from other teams but that Bergevin let him choose the team he wanted to go to. This in no way, shape, or form indicates that he will return to the Canadiens next fall, nor does it mean the Canadiens want to bring him back.



So let me get this straight: You are listing Kovalchuk among the depth at right wing for Montreal and you are falsely claiming that he is "heavily rumoured" to be returning to Montreal, but in the next breath you are claiming that *I* am the one pretending you have guaranteed his return?

Are you serious, Clark?



My absurd narrative? What are you talking about? I don't have any narrative at all, I'm just disputing your silly claim that Montreal "doesn't want" Nylander because of their depth at right wing.

Focus on the overall context, not parts of it. 3rd time now and friendly reminder. Where is your comments on Gallagher, Caufield, and Armia? If you avoid that main point and focus on the side points, your absurd narrative is ridiculous cause you want to belittle vs have a conversation in good faith.

Habs are not going to drop everything for Nylander. Keep dreaming

 

[FerrisRox]

Trusting NHL mock draft is a sure way to look wrong but draftsite.com, mynhldraft.com, and tankathon.com all have Holtz going 7 or 8.

How could teams at seven or eight draft a player that is already on the Canadiens depth chart?

Use your head before you post such uninformed things.

Also, he is simultaneously on the Canadiens depth chart and completely unnecessary because he would block Caufield from the top six.

Also, he won't be drafted by Montreal - despite already being on their depth chart - because they need powerforward left wings and defensemen.

Get informed.

 

[FerrisRox]

Focus on the overall context, not parts of it. 3rd time now

Parts of it? I'm responding point by point your post!