William Nylander Value/Contract

[MyBudJT]

Here's their two-year stat comparison:

Player	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60	CF%	Rel CF%	xGF%	Rel xGF%	ZSR
Marner	2130.62	29	44	73	54	2.06	1.52	50.92	0.27	51.11	0.46	54.88
Nylander	2176.42	23	51	74	53	2.04	1.46	51.89	1.57	51.49	1.08	51.23

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Here's another comparison chart:

Here are their even strength scoring comparison:

Player	Points / 60 (Rank)	Primary Points / 60 (Rank)
Nylander	2.4 (31)	1.76 (43)
Marner	2.05 (73)	1.45 (106)

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Marner is a year younger which is absolutely in his favor. I'd argue that he is on a steeper curve too, though I don't think we'd say that if the second PP unit hadn't fallen apart this season. But there's a very good case to be made that they are at the moment very close.

Nith, this is way too oversimplified imo. Is there more you can show? 1) Who has better quality line mates? (Nylander) 2) who has higher quality of competition?(Close, most recently Marner who played against other team,s top lines) 3) who creates more scoring chances?? Why take a two year sample? Marner clearly had a more dominant year this year after a slow start. Marner played at a 90 plus point place the second half of the season, an ability we have yet to see from Nylander! Both Willy and Mitch are good players, but Marner really seperated himself from Nylander this season...Nylander didn’t show as much improvement from the rookie campaign that Marner showed IMO.

Nylander is the better even strength scorer - and if that 2nd unit PP hadnt been as dysfunctional Nylander could have had 8 or so extra Pp points.

Marner has consistently played with two well established vet scorers - including a 30 goal guy, he wasn’t exact playing with scrubs, not to mention he was on the 1st PP unit. He was also on a line that has been given more sheltered even strength usage - especially during his first season. That’s not to take anything away from Marner, whose been fantastic, but he wasn’t exactly in a disadvantageous position just because he didn’t play with Matthews

The two are neck and neck at the moment - just look at the stats that @Nithoniniel has posted. It’s one thing to like Marner more, that’s fine, it’s another to claim he’s already on another tier (when there’s next to nothing tangible that suggests is the case)

. You can’t blame the 2nd PP unit on Nylanders lack of production... the 2nd unit was poorer mainly because Nylander could t find his rythym. You’re essentially saying ‘if Nylander was better, he would have got more points’... well no kidding!! A lot of your second paragraph is simply untrue... And there are lots of reasons to suggest Marner is on a higher tier... Marner’s 2nd half of the season was the sole reason why we won as many games as we did without Matthews and was playing on a tier we have yet to see Nylander reach... it’s kind of crazy how much people are diminishing Marners 2nd half accomplishes.

 

[IPS]

The separation of skills is already observable looking at progression. You can continue to push this point but it will become embarrassingly apparent to you in the new season that you are wrong...especially if Marner is moved to Matthews line.

Beyond the mental maturation , the physical development is becoming a factor as well. 2 years ago, Willy had faster North South speed that Mitch. The gap has decreased to almost nothing. At ~170lbs, Marner squats 400 lbs parallels. He has amazing pound for pound strength and you can tell he isn't fully grown. His ceiling is so high, I can't see it.

I see Marner as having the superior IQ. Holding his advantage in PP production is nonsensical - the 1st unit was awesome because it was ran by him. The way he can change passing angles on a dime and thread the needle takes a seriously good hockey IQ to do, which I don't think Nylander has. If he is to catch back up to Marner, it's his shooting ability that he's got to improve (he is without a doubt a better shooter than Marner, he just needs to learn to use his shot better), because I can't see him ever becoming the playmaker that Marner is.

 

[Menzinger]

Nith, this is way too oversimplified imo. Is there more you can show? 1) Who has better quality line mates? (Nylander) 2) who has higher quality of competition?(Close, most recently Marner who played against other team,s top lines) 3) who creates more scoring chances?? Why take a two year sample? Marner clearly had a more dominant year this year after a slow start. Marner played at a 90 plus point place the second half of the season, an ability we have yet to see from Nylander! Both Willy and Mitch are good players, but Marner really seperated himself from Nylander this season...Nylander didn’t show as much improvement from the rookie campaign that Marner showed IMO.
. You can’t blame the 2nd PP unit on Nylanders lack of production... the 2nd unit was poorer mainly because Nylander could t find his rythym. You’re essentially saying ‘if Nylander was better, he would have got more points’... well no kidding!! A lot of your second paragraph is simply untrue... And there are lots of reasons to suggest Marner is on a higher tier... Marner’s 2nd half of the season was the sole reason why we won as many games as we did without Matthews and was playing on a tier we have yet to see Nylander reach... it’s kind of crazy how much people are diminishing Marners 2nd half accomplishes.

Matthews PP production also suffered because of the unit not working and that’s not because of a lack of skill or iq. He and Nylander were much better at scoring at 5v5 than with a man advantage - the problem was the system/lack of chemistry with Marleau. Matthews also likely should have had an extra 8-10 points on the Pp. I expect both he and Nylander’s PP production will normalize next season - they were both much more effective during their first season.

There was nothing untrue in my second paragraph. JVR and Bozak aren’t scrubs offensively, the line was sheltered at even strength (not when he was with Kadri, but there was a limited sample of games there), he played on the 1st pp unit.... those are just facts.

You can keep saying Marner is on another tier, but fact remains the numbers and all tangible evidence shows clear as day that isn’t the case.

Edit: clarification

 

[kindalaidback]

Matthews PP production also suffered because of the unit not working and that’s not because of a lack of skill or iq. He and Nylander were much better at scoring at 5v5 than with a man advantage - the problem was the system/lack of chemistry with Marleau. Matthews also likely should have had an extra 8-10 points on the Pp. I expect both he and Nylander’s PP production will normalize next season - they were both much more effective during their first season.

There was nothing untrue in my second paragraph. JVR and Bozak aren’t scrubs offensively, the line was sheltered at even strength, he played on the 1st app unit.... those are just facts.

You can keep saying Marner is on another tier, but fact remains the numbers and all tangible evidence shows clear as day that isn’t the case.

Dude, don't bother. Let them pit Mitch and Willie against each other while we enjoy the fact that we have two (or a few more) great young players on this team.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Nith, this is way too oversimplified imo. Is there more you can show? 1) Who has better quality line mates? (Nylander) 2) who has higher quality of competition?(Close, most recently Marner who played against other team,s top lines) 3) who creates more scoring chances??

Nylander 31.1 TOI% QoT, 29.3 TOI% QoC
Marner 29.78 TOI% QoT, 28.96 TOI% QoC

So Nylander slightly better teammates, but also tougher minutes. Either way, those differences don't really move the needle all that much. And speaking of teammates, it's important to note that you are looking at even strength then. At even strength, Nylander might have a slight advantage in QoT but he has also performed distinctly better. So all any contextual factors would do is close the gap a bit. Meanwhile, on the PP the difference in linemates is probably at its biggest. Marner runs the best PP in the league there. Not taking credit away from him, just pointing out that running a PP featuring Rielly, Kadri, and JvR in a system that utilizes them all perfectly is quite the boon.

As for scoring chances, several of the charts I showed above has that information.

Either way, I don't understand the logic in complaining that I didn't take every single factor into account when I produce a three-post case for why they are similar. Not when your side of the discussion hasn't produced a case like that at all. If all you have to point at is a subset of the sample where he produced at a very high level, then that doesn't really compare well. Especially not when both the length of the sample and contextual factors (there are some good reasons for thinking that his pace was unsustainable) give reason to believe it was a hot streak.

Why take a two year sample? Marner clearly had a more dominant year this year after a slow start. Marner played at a 90 plus point place the second half of the season, an ability we have yet to see from Nylander!

Why two year sample? Because if you deal with numbers, you learn that you should always take the biggest sample possible. There is no reason not to. When you start tailoring the sample size, you are basically doctoring the results. It doesn't do anyone any good.

That's what people did last off-season too. They looked at his numbers pre-sickness and said that he'll improve on that pace in this season. That didn't happen, because Marner started very slow. That's why you take the biggest sample size you can, both because you want as much data as possible but also because you want to capture both the highs and lows.

Both Willy and Mitch are good players, but Marner really seperated himself from Nylander this season...

There's just no good case for it.

the 2nd unit was poorer mainly because Nylander could t find his rythym.

That's really not it. There are some good articles out there that breaks down the second unit and how it functioned.

Basically the problem was this. Teams closed the golden road pass between Matthews and Nylander, leading to the shooter again and again becoming isolated as none of the others presented a secondary option. The shooter, Matthews or Nylander, was then forced to attack themselves, and with only that option teams could easily front those shots and take them away.

They ended up on an island, both of them. I'm very disappointed with our coaching staff for not finding a better solution. All they did was change side for the two of them, which just meant that they could not threaten with shot and then sneak a pass through golden road even if the chance was there.

because I can't see him ever becoming the playmaker that Marner is.

Worth noting that as I showed above, Nylander has a higher rate of dangerous passes and a much higher rate of successful passes at even strength, where Marner has been surprisingly bad. His shot assist contributions are not very high even compared to the league at large.

Also worth noting that for as great as Marner was on the PP, and despite how brilliant that unit performed, all that separated him from Nylander's PP performance in the first season was one single point.

Dude, don't bother. Let them pit Mitch and Willie against each other while we enjoy the fact that we have two (or a few more) great young players on this team.

I've worried a bit that people take my arguments as me trying to tear down Marner, because that's really not the case. I love him, and I hold him incredibly high. I'm just trying to highlight that for how good Marner has become, Nylander is very close by.

 

[Knightnight]

Matthews PP production also suffered because of the unit not working and that’s not because of a lack of skill or iq. He and Nylander were much better at scoring at 5v5 than with a man advantage - the problem was the system/lack of chemistry with Marleau. Matthews also likely should have had an extra 8-10 points on the Pp. I expect both he and Nylander’s PP production will normalize next season - they were both much more effective during their first season.

There was nothing untrue in my second paragraph. JVR and Bozak aren’t scrubs offensively, the line was sheltered at even strength (not when he was with Kadri, but there was a limited sample of games there), he played on the 1st pp unit.... those are just facts.

You can keep saying Marner is on another tier, but fact remains the numbers and all tangible evidence shows clear as day that isn’t the case.

Edit: clarification

Lets clarify another myth, just like sheltered minutes. There was no number 1 or 2 unit. The difference on pp TOI was 4 seconds per game between 34 and 16. There was only 4 seconds because when 34 was out the 16 PP time increased to give them a small advantage. Secondly the 34 pp started just as many pps as the 16 pp unit even though they were far less effective. No other team would do this. The 16 line based on performance should have played 15 to 20 seconds more and started almost every pp. The media narrative on the 34 line being the second pp unit is just not true.

Actually 3 second between 34 and 16 and 1 second between 29 and 16. So there was no number 1 or 2

 

[Notsince67]

If he is to catch back up to Marner, it's his shooting ability that he's got to improve (he is without a doubt a better shooter than Marner, he just needs to learn to use his shot better), because I can't see him ever becoming the playmaker that Marner is.

I concur that he has a better shot than Marner. It is actually a much better shot. I was wondering all year why Marner's shot was deficient (didn't match the rest of his skill level) My suspicion is that it is a function of his growing. A 10 lbs shift in weight usually means a change in stick flex. It is a really awkward size and weight. I don't think it is suppose to, but a shift in flex often alters the kickpoint of the stick. I hope he is practicing his shot a lot this summer to find that sweet spot. It is the one thing that will yield the biggest return in his development.

 

[MyBudJT]

Dude, don't bother. Let them pit Mitch and Willie against each other while we enjoy the fact that we have two (or a few more) great young players on this team.

You see, comments like this are not constructive at all. This is not about 'pitting Mitch and Willy against each other'... If thats how you see these debates, then I invite you to re-evaluate the points that are being made.

People here are pegging Nylander to be a future superstar. I (and a few others) think Nylander is very good, but are not convinced that he'll become this superstar some here are pegging. Some of us also think that Marner has surpassed Nylander (and could become a superstar). This is not a fault on Nylander... Nylander is still a very good player.

Nylander 31.1 TOI% QoT, 29.3 TOI% QoC
Marner 29.78 TOI% QoT, 28.96 TOI% QoC

So Nylander slightly better teammates, but also tougher minutes. Either way, those differences don't really move the needle all that much. And speaking of teammates, it's important to note that you are looking at even strength then. At even strength, Nylander might have a slight advantage in QoT but he has also performed distinctly better. So all any contextual factors would do is close the gap a bit. Meanwhile, on the PP the difference in linemates is probably at its biggest. Marner runs the best PP in the league there. Not taking credit away from him, just pointing out that running a PP featuring Rielly, Kadri, and JvR in a system that utilizes them all perfectly is quite the boon.

As for scoring chances, several of the charts I showed above has that information.

Either way, I don't understand the logic in complaining that I didn't take every single factor into account when I produce a three-post case for why they are similar. Not when your side of the discussion hasn't produced a case like that at all. If all you have to point at is a subset of the sample where he produced at a very high level, then that doesn't really compare well. Especially not when both the length of the sample and contextual factors (there are
some good reasons for thinking that his pace was unsustainable) give reason to believe it was a hot streak.

Thank you for the more in depth material. I didn't see some of that table on my iphone for some reason, but noticed your table had more info now. (All I saw was TOI and production). Still, I think there are flaws in what you displayed, and I'll expand more on that below.

Why two year sample? Because if you deal with numbers, you learn that you should always take the biggest sample possible. There is no reason not to. When you start tailoring the sample size, you are basically doctoring the results. It doesn't do anyone any good.

That's what people did last off-season too. They looked at his numbers pre-sickness and said that he'll improve on that pace in this season. That didn't happen, because Marner started very slow. That's why you take the biggest sample size you can, both because you want as much data as possible but also because you want to capture both the highs and lows.

I like to think I'm educated in stats, and appropriate sample sizes and what not... But really, it depends on what you're analyzing here. If you're looking at their respective careers... sure, the two year sample is great... However, if you're looking at 'who is the better player now'.... What Marner and Nylander did in October 2016 has little bearing on what kind of player they are now. So in that regard, I disagree about 'taking the biggest sample possible'... Quite often in stats, samples of >20 are considered 'good enough' in comparisons. I'm not suggesting we compare small samples here...

To finish the season (and playoffs), Marner finished with 18 goals and 46 points in his last 40 games. This is not a small smaple size here. This is a 36G and 94 point pace. I'd be suprised if Nylander has shown this level of production in any 20 game stretch, and can tell you with certainty, he has not matched this type of production on any 40 game stretch.

I don't really understand your second paragraph... people were saying Marner would improve on last season because of Mono.... He DID improve off of last season...

There's just no good case for it.

Why isn't my argument above not an adequate case for it?

I've worried a bit that people take my arguments as me trying to tear down Marner, because that's really not the case. I love him, and I hold him incredibly high. I'm just trying to highlight that for how good Marner has become, Nylander is very close by.

I think we're kind of both in the same boat here... My arguments aren't me trying to tear down Nylander... I just don't see him as the same level of player as Marner. This really isn't a knock on Nylander, he still a VERY good player... but I don't yet see the future superstar others around here seem to see.

 

[Allhailtheleafs]

I agree 100% marner is better then nylander. He's younger, and the better playmaker. Boy can skate, dangle, shoot, run a pp, play defensively, has passion, and isn't afraid to get hit or be physical. IMO marner will end up being an all time great for the leafs

 

[mapleleaf979]

. This really isn't a knock on Nylander, he still a VERY good player... but I don't yet see the future superstar others around here seem to see.

His compete level is an issue, skating at his top level is not consistent at all, not to mention puck battles. I think its clear he will leave some of his potential on the table.

Nylander's ceiling should mirror Matt Barzal. The tools at there disposal are the same. Nylander engaged, can put up 80 points as Center but it wont happen.

The Leafs cant pay him #1 line winger money and then move him to center. I dont think Matthews wants him on his line long term.

 

[Nithoniniel]

However, if you're looking at 'who is the better player now'

The difficulty there is that you are subject to a pretty big case of 'what have you done for me lately'. 40 games is nothing to sneeze at, but it was 40 games with unsustainable underlying numbers and without a single cold streak, which will happen to pretty much anyone. So at the very least, we should look at a one year sample. What do we have then? An advantage Marner for sure, but the majority of that comes from the PP. And as I've pointed out before, it was a very weird year for the PP

I understand how tempting it is to look at the half year sample. I'd want to too. But it's an exercise in looking at Marner when he's at his best only. He'll likely have dips next season too, and to predict them we need to include previous dips in the samples we use for predictions.

I'd be suprised if Nylander has shown this level of production in any 20 game stretch, and can tell you with certainty, he has not matched this type of production on any 40 game stretch.

That is true. However, there's a 20 game period where most underlying numbers pegged Matthews and Nylander as the most dominant duo in hockey at even strength. That's not shabby either.

Why isn't my argument above not an adequate case for it?

You have some points, but let's put it like this:

ES point production - 2 year sample = Nylander
ES point production - 1 year sample = Nylander
PP point production - 2 year sample = Equal
PP point production - 1 year sample = Marner
Point production - Half year = Marner
Basic shot metrics - 1 year sample = Marner
Basic shot metrics - 2 year sample = Equal
xGF metrics - 1 year sample = Marner
xGF metrics - 2 year sample = Equal
Individual numbers - 1 year sample = Nylander
Individual numbers - 2 year sample = Nylander

I'm not saying that you don't bring up things of merit, just that I don't see a clear distinction between the two unless with a rather narrow perspective on things.

I don't really understand your second paragraph... people were saying Marner would improve on last season because of Mono.... He DID improve off of last season...

They were looking at what he did without Mono, and saying that was the baseline for this year. That was the point. If you start cutting out pieces you don't like, chances are you'll be disappointed. Even more so this season, as there was no Mono to use as context for a rather lousy first half of the season. So I personally wouldn't discount it.

Nylander engaged, can put up 80 points as Center but it wont happen.

You can see the future huh?

I dont think Matthews wants him on his line long term.

Haha. Can't be more conjecture than this, and so surprising that you'd say that Matthews would not want to play with the guy you spend most of your posts disparaging.

 

[kindalaidback]

You can see the future huh?


Haha. Can't be more conjecture than this, and so surprising that you'd say that Matthews would not want to play with the guy you spend most of your posts disparaging.

I agree with the rest of your post, but man, mapleleaf979 has been on this weird trip for the past two years, and I do not know why.
I'm fine with people criticizing Nylander as they are some things he has to work on, but always claiming that his teammates do not like him is kinda wild and not true.

His compete level is an issue, skating at his top level is not consistent at all, not to mention puck battles. I think its clear he will leave some of his potential on the table.

Nylander's ceiling should mirror Matt Barzal. The tools at there disposal are the same. Nylander engaged, can put up 80 points as Center but it wont happen.

The Leafs cant pay him #1 line winger money and then move him to center. I dont think Matthews wants him on his line long term.

They can and they will if they think he is ready to play center. Hey, wanna know something? They met up a few days after the playoffs. But that probably only happened, so Matthews could tell him that he doesn't wanna play with him anymore and that he is frustrated, right?

 

[Mess]

You couldn't find a better comparable for Nylander than Nik Ehlers statistically, stylishly, and same draft year taken 1 position apart in 2014.

 

[Knightnight]

You are not including things like hits, blocked shots, takeaways. Nylander did not lead in any of these categories

 

[mapleleaf979]

They met up a few days after the playoffs. But that probably only happened, so Matthews could tell him that he doesn't wanna play with him anymore and that he is frustrated, right?

The exit interviews was not an endorsement on Nylander when Matthews mentioned playing with Marner. Usually players divert the question and say "everyone on this team is so skilled , it doesnt matter who u are with etc etc" Marner and Nylander echoed this all year as did Brown when moved all over the lines. Its nothing personal at all against Nylander but as a linemate, I do not see him as reliable. Matthews also needs a kick in the rear to get him competing as well. Matthews biggest weakness is his compete level at times. Hyman's compete level is as good as it gets in the NHL, Marner competes harder than Nylander and that can keep Matthews engaged into being a beast.

The problem with that is Nylander has not created chemistry with other Maple Leaf forwards. I think Kapanen a good friend of his might work, Matthews and him have excellent chemistry when both are engaged but this is not a great long term fit imo because both can dis-appear when the other isnt working hard and the line is invisible. Babcock inserts Brown a hard worker with that line in the playoffs and over the last 2 seasons has removed Nylander away from this line. Marner is a far better fit, that has never had an extended look. Nylander may become even more frustrating game to game as a 3c, his future and role on this team is not clear imo.

MY point is both Matthews and Nylander need 2 hard working players on there line, they should be separated to make this happen and i believe this will force them to work at all times, long term.

 

[ZEBROA]

You attacked me not my opinion stick to my opinion and I share and support my opinion with reasons calling me names is garbage and not required.

I just called out scapegoathunters in general not you personal. If you fit that bill i would not know. You seem to have found valid reasons for not liking Nylander. I might think those reasons are a bit overblown. Time will tell. And i get a feeling you want to be wrong in your fears about Nylander. Scapegoathunters/zombies wants to be right. Thats a big difference. And thats what im against.

 

[MyBudJT]

I just called out scapegoathunters in general not you personal. If you fit that bill i would not know. You seem to have found valid reasons for not liking Nylander. I might think those reasons are a bit overblown. Time will tell. And i get a feeling you want to be wrong in your fears about Nylander. Scapegoathunters/zombies wants to be right. Thats a big difference. And thats what im against.

This is a Leafs forum. We all want what’s best for our players... now that doesn’t mean that you have to be a ‘homer’... we all see hockey differently and have differing views what makes one player better than another. A lot of us here like to try and predict the future of a player based on what we have seen so far. In regards to Nylander, not all of us are convinced he will be a superstar player... This does not mean we don’t want him to become a superstar player... This does not mean we think he is and will always be a shit player. Our criticisms are with very high standards... if people claim that he has superstar potential, he should be held to those standards...

 

[ZEBROA]

This is a Leafs forum. We all want what’s best for our players... now that doesn’t mean that you have to be a ‘homer’... we all see hockey differently and have differing views what makes one player better than another. A lot of us here like to try and predict the future of a player based on what we have seen so far. In regards to Nylander, not all of us are convinced he will be a superstar player... This does not mean we don’t want him to become a superstar player... This does not mean we think he is and will always be a **** player. Our criticisms are with very high standards... if people claim that he has superstar potential, he should be held to those standards...

Some fans could fool me...

So he should be held to standards people claim. Not to the standards you yourself belive.

I belive he will be a great second or third line C. Not realy a superstar. Dont think Marner will be a superstar either.

 

[Notsince67]

Some fans could fool me...

So he should be held to standards people claim. Not to the standards you yourself belive.

I belive he will be a great second or third line C. Not realy a superstar. Dont think Marner will be a superstar either.

It depends what you think a superstar is. 85 pts...90 pts...100pts...what is it?

 

[Nithoniniel]

You are not including things like hits, blocked shots, takeaways. Nylander did not lead in any of these categories

I assume this is directed at me. Hits have very little correlation to winning, it's a style of play rather than an ingredient in being a better player. It's about how you get success. Blocked shot is as much a measurement of how often opposing players get to shoot when you're on the ice than it says something about the player in question. Even if they were important categories, the difference is about 0.1 hits or blocked shots per game. It's completely negligible.

Takeaways have value. All these stats rely on subjective interpretations though, and as such bias is a huge issue with these numbers. Not only on a team basis, but on the player level as well. That's why those that work with these kind of stats encourage using away games to eliminate bias, and then use per hour measurements to eliminate ice time as a major factor. Note, this is an adjustment that everybody that tries to ascertain a true value for takeaways does, it's not just me and it's not just about the Leafs either.

When you look at away takeaways per hour, Nylander is among the very best in the whole league, with Marner and Matthews a bit back but still among the highest echelon of players. His ability to apply back pressure and steal pucks back for us is absolutely phenomenal.

As a final note, please use reply so that it will be easier to follow the conversation. Thanks.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This is a Leafs forum. We all want what’s best for our players...

I think that's a bit optimistic. There's plenty of people I've talked with here that seem to hope things go bad for a player or the team so they can be right. I don't think you or Diceman are among them, you are genuine fans who just have a different opinion.

By the way, that list above felt wrong to me so I went to look them up. I had completely misremembered some numbers and have adjusted accordingly. As a result, it doesn't seem so overwhelmingly pro-Nylander.

I think statistically, you could divide it up like this:

- Surface stats say they are equal.
- On-ice metrics favor Marner.
- Individual actions swings back in favor for Nylander.

My read on that is that while Nylander does more with the puck that drives results, perhaps he's not as effective off the puck as Marner. That fits what I see on the ice, as I think Nylander's biggest flaw offensively is getting himself open for his linemates to find him.

On the other hand, if you continue to judge every linemate they have had individually, you'd notice that Bozak look much better than expected. His playmaking and shot contribution stats are pretty good, so there's an element of Marner playing with better performers than we usually credit them for. JvR is not bad either.

Hyman is though. Man, I've spent so much time defending that guy on that line, but if you look at individual actions with the puck, he's pretty much at replacement level in all areas except the dangerous passes out front from behind the net. Those are really valuable though.

That's that. I'm all talked out now.

 

[diceman934]

I just called out scapegoathunters in general not you personal. If you fit that bill i would not know. You seem to have found valid reasons for not liking Nylander. I might think those reasons are a bit overblown. Time will tell. And i get a feeling you want to be wrong in your fears about Nylander. Scapegoathunters/zombies wants to be right. Thats a big difference. And thats what im against.

Why call anyone a name? Why not stick to debating the opinion?

I want Nylander to be a great player who comes to play always. Highly skilled player who needs to play tougher if he is going to reach his potential.

 

[ZEBROA]

Why call anyone a name? Why not stick to debating the opinion?

I want Nylander to be a great player who comes to play always. Highly skilled player who needs to play tougher if he is going to reach his potential.

My opinion is that some behavior wont contribute to the debate or the climat of debating. So i called the behavior a name not a person.

But lets leave it there, sorry if you felt called names i did not target you. It was in general and in other threads all over HF.

Lets agree do disagree on Marner and Nylander. Future will sort that out eventually any way.

 

[Boutette]

On the other hand, if you continue to judge every linemate they have had individually, you'd notice that Bozak look much better than expected. His playmaking and shot contribution stats are pretty good, so there's an element of Marner playing with better performers than we usually credit them for. JvR is not bad either.

I would disagree with Bozak and JvR. Bozak's playmaking and shot contribution stats have sharply declined from previous years as he has specialized his play to service JvR's specialization. JvR has specialized himself in to an absolute one trick pony (who requires an entire line to service him, in this years case, Bozak devoting himself to lobbing low-chance shots at the net for the hoped for JvR tip in instead of actually trying to score himself (he used to be good at that - his shot percentage last year was1/3 of what it once was) and Brown forced to play all the defence for the both players). The forced specialization of each of these players has made them look worse, not better.

 

[PuckMagi]

I was against burning a year off his ELC at the time. I remember a lot of people critciszed me for saying it was a stupid move. Look what I posted on March 31, 2016:

It wasn't a smart move at all.

So many people just think this management group can do no wrong for some reason.

If this was such a smart move... then why don't we see other GMs burn the first ELC year by having their top prospects play 10-20 games. You don't see other GMs do it because it's a dumb move.

The 3rd year of his ELC would have been such amazing value. We squandered it for nothing because this year is a write off anyways.

Wait a couple more years and you'll see how much this will come back to bite us in the butt.

If we didn't burn a year on his ELC and waste money on guys like Martin... we could have signed Tavares to a long term contract, and signed Jumbo Joe and Kovalchuk to one year deals. Sounds like fantasy hockey, but we could have done it. The reason we could do it is because we could have had Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all making less then $3 million combined. That's the most insane value ever in cap hockey. Imagine running with these forward lines next year:

Kadri - Matthews - Marner
Kovalchuk - Tavares - Nylander
Marleau - Jumbo Joe - Brown

We could have assembled basically a dream team this year. But we wasted a year of his ELC on a tanking season for no good reason. We signed guys like Martin to bad contracts. These little mistakes could add up to a player like Kovalchuk or Jumbo Joe not coming here because of cap space.

Imagine if we handed things over to Dubas this year with the big 3 all earning their ELC contracts. Dubas would have had a mountain of cap space to work with.