mcphee said:
Would you be happy to see a bunch of ECHL players lifting the Stanley Cup? Having their names engraved on it? Placed alongside names like Richard, LaFleur and Patrick Roy?
It would be a travesty.
Tom
Will you support an NHL with replacement players?
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Would you be happy to see a bunch of ECHL players lifting the Stanley Cup? Having their names engraved on it? Placed alongside names like Richard, LaFleur and Patrick Roy?
It would be a travesty.
Tom
Tom_Benjamin said:
At least they would of won it with dignity, and prestige unlike the greedy players of today, who don't care about championships but holding out on teams for half the year so they can get 3 million more.
Tom_Benjamin said:
Some of the players in the NHL now would have been in the ECHL back in the days of Richard and LaFleur...
Not sure I understand the difference.
Go Flames Go said:
Yeah. Because players like Steve Yzerman, Scott Stevens, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Dave Andreychuk, John Madden, etc. don't give a damn about winning a championship, they just want their money!
I would dare you to look any NHLer, who has just gone through four playoff rounds, in the eyes and tell them that all they care about is the money.
dawgbone said:
Don't be ridiculous. The players are better today than ever. I think you can make a case that Champions aren't as good because there is so much parity today, but you can't take anything away from any of the players who have won a Stanley Cup. Ever.
It is symbolic of hockey excellence. The right to lift the Cup is a sacred tradition in hockey. Bettman and the NHL wisely sell the Cup as the greatest trophy in sports, the biggest star in the game.
Put ECHL names on it and it will never be the same again. I'll bet it will really mean something to raise a Stanley Cup banner won by replacement players.
Or how about the All-Star game? The All-Star teams? Let's give the Hart trophy to Pascal Rheaume or Jay Henderson. Greg Zanon can win the Norris. Wade Flaherty for the Vezina. How many asterisks do we put in the official record book? If Bertuzzi decides to cross the picket line and smashes all of Gretzky's records, are they official?
Tom
mcphee said:
Hey McPhee!
The Dylan avatar is kickin!
I'm sure they would drastically reduce ticket prices for replacement games, and the ring on the Cup with their names on will become ledgendary!
"At midnight all the agents, and the super-human crew, come out and round up everyone who knows more than they do..."
-HckyFght!
mcphee
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Is that from Desolation Row ? I could check but it's more fun to guess. I would be surprised to see ticket prices lowered though it would be a nice pr move.HckyFght said:
Tom, I don't think travesty would be the word. The quality of replacements would evolve quickly I think. Frankly, if these guys are the ones who choose to compete, what the heck. It would probably be academic though as I thought Saskin made it clear that the NHLPA is interested in driving the star's bus and the rank and file had better follow. I think the rank and file would flock to claim their spots pretty quickly. I agree that the qualit of players is better than ever though the quality of play isn't. Coaching and ice surface and rule limitations have made the game a bit dull for anyone but the die hards on this board. But that's just me.
John Flyers Fan
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mcphee said:
It's not just about the sweater, it's about quality.
If the "Flyers" were playing the "Rangers" and they were players that couldn't sniff the NHL, if would be an absolute travesty .. and I could care less.
I've also been a Flyers fan before most of the current players were born, but that doesn't mean I'll support anyone that wears the orange & black. Put a legitamate product on the ice, and I'll support it 100%.
John Flyers Fan
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Go Flames Go said:
That's the biggest bunch of BS going right now.
Todays players don't care like the "old-timers" used to.
Todays players play every bit as hard, and are actually far more dedicated than players that came before them.
Players routinely showed up to training camp 20 lbs. overweight.
After games teams would go out together and mass quantities of beer were consumed a couple of nights a week.
I can guaruntee you that Alexei Yahin is in better shape in July than Phil Espositio was in January.
Todays game is faster, and more physical (a lack of fighting doesn't mean it's less physical) than it ever has been.
mcphee
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John, I'm not sure that I really disagree with you. Keep in mind though that the current Flyers are sort of a snapshot that is pretty transient,like all teams. I wouldn't get worked up about it because I can't see it being ECHL level for long. I don't say it'll be an NFL replica, but I remember the first week or 2 being a curiousity than players started showing up then things were back to normal. Actually I could see, esp. in Canada, the teams loading up with local boys and it getting kind of interesting, but again, not for long.John Flyers Fan said:
John Flyers Fan
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mcphee said:
I know that players in the NFL did cross picket lines (the Philadelpiha Eagles were the only team to have nobody cross), but I don't think that you'd see NHL players cross in the same way, and certainly not as quickly as they did in the NFL.
mcphee
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Pierre McGuire does a lot of radio work here and has thumped pretty hard about players,esp. rank and file players feeling that the union is looking out for a minority of players. He's citing conversations but not naming names. While I think he's sensationalizing to an extent, because that's what he does, I think a lot of players would question whether their interests were being served. Frankly I don't know what they'd do if faced with that decision, but it if it were to break a bit, it would break a lot quickly.John Flyers Fan said:
Papadice
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Personally, I think it would more of a travesty to not have it won at all...Tom_Benjamin said:
The Stanley Cup happens to currently go to the winner of the NHL playoffs, but it wasn't always so... So, what if it goes to replacement players... it would still be going to the winner of the best hockey currently in North America...
For you to think that the level of play would be comparable to the ECHL, to me, that's not close to true... There would be plenty of AHL players that would be willing to make the jump and there would be tons of European players that would be willing to do the same... Plus, you add in the cream of the crop of the last few drafts and you'd have a league that would be comparable to the AHL I'd think... Sure it wouldn't be the NHL, but it wouldn't be horrible hockey...
John Flyers Fan
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tgallant said:
#1. AHL players that think they have a NHL future wouldn't jump
#2. Recent draft picks wouldn't jump.
You'd have 2nd rate euro's, and minor leaguers that aren't real prospects.
Until players started crossing the picket lines, the league would be a joke.
Tom_Benjamin said:
I would suggest the same to you. Naturally if you took todays training and equipment and put it back in "the olden days" guys in the AHL might have been incredible back in the 60's and 70's... however, if you put some of these player into the training regiment of those past years, they wouldn't be in the NHL of then.
Parity? No... more teams, yes. They aren't the same thing. Having to win 8 games to win the Cup is a lot easier than winning 16 games. Beating 20 teams with finances not being a major issue is easier than beating 29 teams when your hands are tied financially.
The Oilers and Islanders of the 80's would have had a much tougher time winning their cups in a 30 team league, while they probably would have won much more in a 6 or a 12 team league.
It's a numbers game... it isn't parity.
It's awarded to the best team in the NHL... whether they are replacement players or not.
The right to lift the cup is granted to the team that survives the rigors of a long NHL regular season, then does it again in a shorter, but even more demanding playoff schedule. The best players or the best team doesn't always win the Stanley Cup... it's never been that way. It's the team that plays the best, and has the most luck, during the playoffs.
Does it mean something to fans of the Montreal Canadiens, who talk with pride about their 24 Stanley Cups... most of which were won in a 6 or 12 team league... where most of time teams in that league couldn't compete with your average CHL team nowadays?
I can't cheer for a Stanley Cup team now, so I'd be darn proud to watch a 6th Championship banner rise to the rafters.
You don't put any asterisks in the record book. Are there asterisks beside Gretzky's name because he destroyed every record in a league know primarily for some of the worst goaltending in league history? Are they any Asterisks beside Henri Richard's 11 cups because he won most of them in a 6 and 12 team league?
Why would a replacement players records in a 30 team league mean any less than those of someone's in a 21, 12, or 6 team league?
After all, the players are today are better than ever!
John Flyers Fan said:
Why not? They are making $45-90k in the AHL, they'd jump in a second to make significantly more than that in the NHL.
Of course they would... don't be silly. These aren't guys who have been making lots of money the past few years... for the most part, these guys have no other income, and would have to play hockey.
Which wouldn't be that long. If the NHL dissolved all dealings with the NHLPA, and cut off negotiations permanantly, and then re-started the league with the promise of no further negotiations, you'd see a lot of players move pretty darn quick.
Buffaloed
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I wouldn't support replacement players and I doubt if it would attract many fans. People want to see a real team, not a collection of names to win a labor dispute.
If the NHL goes this route, will it generate enough revenue to pay fixed costs? They certainly can't expect TV contracts to be honored at current rates, paltry as they may seem, if they use replacement players; and one wouldn't expect merchandise to be a big seller. I recall when the Amerks played at the HSBC last season they had to draw at least 8000 fans for their regular season game, and 6000 for playoff games to break even. The owners could end up with egg on their faces if using replacement players is a big money loser and that may cause them to cave in to the NHLPA. This strategy isn't without risk.
If the NHL goes this route, will it generate enough revenue to pay fixed costs? They certainly can't expect TV contracts to be honored at current rates, paltry as they may seem, if they use replacement players; and one wouldn't expect merchandise to be a big seller. I recall when the Amerks played at the HSBC last season they had to draw at least 8000 fans for their regular season game, and 6000 for playoff games to break even. The owners could end up with egg on their faces if using replacement players is a big money loser and that may cause them to cave in to the NHLPA. This strategy isn't without risk.
mcphee said:
This is a very large assumption. I think the crazy thing about the way most fans think on this board is they really think the players will simply roll over. It would be a travesty. You are filling the league with a bunch of guys who would never, ever make it.
Where is the sense of history? The idea that even a guy who has a cup of coffee in the show is worthy of respect? Who here wouldn't cut off their right arm to play in an NHL game? A replacement player? Who could respect somebody who knows they will never be good enough but is willing to pretend they are playing in the NHL? It's something they will be able to tell their grandchildren, I suppose. They can show them the NHL record book.
(I buy the record book every year. If the NHL uses replacements, can you imagine what it will look like next year?)
The NFL had four huge advantages. First, they have a vast pool of NFL players who graduate from college every season. The quality of play was at least as good as College Football. In hockey only a handful of NHL ready players come from the colleges or Junior ranks. Most are miles away from being NHL quality. The best Junior teams could probably succeed in the ECHL.
Second, the NFL was (and is) a TV driven league, not a gate driven league. Attendance was poor, but the TV money was already in the bank.
Third, football fans bet on the games in very large numbers. Gamblers don't really care who is playing. As soon as Vegas set a betting line, TV ratings began to recover and the strike was broken.
The NHL has poor ratings in the United States and has attendance problems in the southern United States when the best players in the world are in the league. It is a gate driven league.
Fourth, the NFL is purely American. Canadian teams will probably have to play out of rinks in the United States. They certainly will in BC and Quebec. They probably will in Ontario and Alberta. That's where the NHL fanbase lives!
It's madness.
Tom
Buffaloed
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dawgbone said:
They'd have a tough time pulling that off in Quebec and BC where it's illegal to hire replacement workers. Even if they reincorporate as a new league, a judge would probably see it as an attempt to subvert the labor law. They better be prepared to go with 28 teams, or temporarily relocate the Nucks & Habs in Winnepeg and Hamilton.
Buffaloed said:
Well it's a completely different subject.
Talking about using replacement players and whether we would go and watch it, is incredibly different from actually doing it.
I certainly don't think they will use replacement players, and I am suprised Daly didn't bring it up yesterday when asked about the Thrashers part owner's comment on using the scabs.
The legal aspect is pretty muddy right now, and I don't think it would be worth the legal battle to try and do it.
SuperUnknown
Registered User
mcphee said:
Well, there are lower paid and young players that have expressed themselves saying they think the NHLPA is not representing their interests. (like Pascal Rheaume and another young player I can't remember the name)
At some point, a union member could call for a vote on a proposition without the NHLPA big guys approving and if the voting would go through the NHLPA would be forced to accept a new CBA. With 60% of the players making under the average and feeling not well represented, it could possibly go through, who knows...
mcphee
Registered User
No real arguement as to the NFL being an apples/oranges situation. I suspect that Canadian teams could do a good job of marketing replacement players with a enough local boy gets a chance stories to keep Ron McLean in a permanent state of tumescence. As you point out, the US is a different story. I guess a lot of us see the a big part of the problem as the fact that the game is not accepted in so many markets., and the hand wringing that goes along with it. I don't know, I can't sit here and tell you replacement players are a good thing, but if it has to come to that, I would cheer for whoever wears the CH.Tom_Benjamin said:
If Luc from Boisbriand scored 80 goals, I'd personally put the asterisk in the Hab record book.
K215215 said:
If these guys want to be greedy and not give in , screw them they dont care about us the people u do know that right?
so in other words hockey is hockey dont care who is playing if its called NHL hockey and its on TV then im watching it.
but what do u mean by entertainment dollars, i wouldnt go out and buy there merchandise as they are not regulars, just fillins, but i wouldnt cancel my sports channels as they would be playing games on espn 1and 2 msg and fox sports, i will keep them and still watch games.
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NHL=not NFL.
Nobody is going to care about the NHL, Bettman and co have burnt to many bridges with fans. I would not pay NHL prices to see AHL caliber talent.
The NHL can just fold up and die as far as i'm concerned, no excuse for TWO labor stoppages in 10 years and hearing this saskin guy talking like the NFL and NBA systems are unacceptable...well they work for those players in more popular sports.
Nobody is going to care about the NHL, Bettman and co have burnt to many bridges with fans. I would not pay NHL prices to see AHL caliber talent.
The NHL can just fold up and die as far as i'm concerned, no excuse for TWO labor stoppages in 10 years and hearing this saskin guy talking like the NFL and NBA systems are unacceptable...well they work for those players in more popular sports.
Motown Beatdown
Need a slump buster
I would not support replacement players right now. If the owners try to reach a fair deal, attempt to negotiate with the Union and the Union wont make any concessions to reach i deal i would probably change my mind. But i dont believe the owners are doing that. If both sides put as much effort into negotiations as they did in PR, i bet a deal could be reached.
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