Will the Leafs/Growlers relationship change the ECHL?

[Growler]

The Leafs assigned 18 AHL contracts, plus another 4 NHL contracts to the Growlers for at least 1 game this year. 13 AHL and 2 NHL are on the current playoff roster, and that number could have been higher pending a move here or there.

The Growlers are also very young with 12 rookies on the current roster. Several more rookies played for the Growlers throughout the year.

The Leafs approached the ECHL, especially this year, as a platform to develop for the AHL as opposed to a place to park a few extra Program Players to get them some more ice time.

Last week Dubas visited the Growlers (how often do you see this?), and spoke about how the Marlies GM and Leafs/Marlies management staff and training staff are at all the Growlers games (even behind the bench sometimes). Dubas: “We want to use it for everybody entering the organization - players, coaches, trainers and medical people. We want it all aligned. We’ve hammered home the organizational ethos of what we want in terms of our playing style. Considering our salary cap situation in the coming years, we need to have player development through the system. With this scenario, we feel it gives them a better chance at becoming Leafs.”

Not only are we seeing the Leafs use the Growlers as a development program more than any other team in the NHL, now the Growlers are in the Kelly Cup Final with home ice advantage in their inaugural season.

What's next for the ECHL?

Click to read more...

 

[royals119]

If they are successful in developing more NHL players, or win Stanley cups, as a result of what they are doing, then I'm sure other NHL teams will copy what they are doing to some extent. Winning a Kelly Cup isn't going to get the attention of other NHL teams.

 

[Growler]

If they are successful in developing more NHL players, or win Stanley cups, as a result of what they are doing, then I'm sure other NHL teams will copy what they are doing to some extent. Winning a Kelly Cup isn't going to get the attention of other NHL teams.

Good. I'm hoping they don't copy; I think Dubas is onto something. Though I would argue that winning a Kelly Cup would get the attention of other NHL clubs when that team has 12 rookies contracted to you on it - that's an additional 8-10 weeks of development. Buffalo/Cincinnati loaded up this year (10AHL/3NHL). The Islanders/Worcester usually do as well (10/1 this year). Pittsburgh/Wheeling (10/5) usually do as well. Toronto/Growlers (18/4). Overall there was a major spike in AHL contracts signed this year (a 15% increase this year compared to only a 15% increase over the previous 5 years). Let's see if it continues.

 

[210]

If they are successful in developing more NHL players, or win Stanley cups, as a result of what they are doing, then I'm sure other NHL teams will copy what they are doing to some extent. Winning a Kelly Cup isn't going to get the attention of other NHL teams.

This. Exactly this.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

For the record, the Leafs did the same thing with the Solar Bears for the previous few seasons when that was our affiliation. Granted, we did not make it to a Kelly Cup final, but if a league-wide change is happening, it has not happened thus far.

 

[Growler]

For the record, the Leafs did the same thing with the Solar Bears for the previous few seasons when that was our affiliation. Granted, we did not make it to a Kelly Cup final, but if a league-wide change is happening, it has not happened thus far.

Under Dubas they did with the Solar Bears, but nowhere near the same extent as this year. Dubas as Marlies GM broke records for # of AHL deals several times that were set by the Islanders and Penguins, but took it to a whole new level with St. Johns (24 in total). Meanwhile, Buffalo spiked to 20 AHL deals this year, Vancouver spiked to 16, Islanders and Penguins spiked to 16. Overall the league is up 15%. Detroit and Chicago now are out of the blocks early on AHL deals, and Detroit is signing mostly multi-year - even 3 year - AHL deals. All of this is a sudden change.

 

[crimsonace]

Good. I'm hoping they don't copy; I think Dubas is onto something. Though I would argue that winning a Kelly Cup would get the attention of other NHL clubs when that team has 12 rookies contracted to you on it - that's an additional 8-10 weeks of development. Buffalo/Cincinnati loaded up this year (10AHL/3NHL). The Islanders/Worcester usually do as well (10/1 this year). Pittsburgh/Wheeling (10/5) usually do as well. Toronto/Growlers (18/4). Overall there was a major spike in AHL contracts signed this year (a 15% increase this year compared to only a 15% increase over the previous 5 years). Let's see if it continues.

The Leafs are at an advantage in that MLSE owns the Marlies. Because of the 50-contract limit in the NHL, the Leafs have - probably more than any other team - used AHL contracts to sign players they like beyond that 50-contract limit and develop them, giving them a chance to earn an NHL contract. It's a good model for late-bloomers and tweeners who have potential. The ECHL team benefits because guys on AHL contracts are paid far more than those on ECHL deals, and thus they can sign more talented players to AHL deals.

Buffalo/Cincinnati was a notable example, too. That team was loaded and was my pre-playoff pick for the Kelly Cup.

Some teams - the ones you've noted - have gone all-in on the "oversign guys to AHL contracts and then develop them and let them earn NHL deals" model. The Blackhawks organization has done that more - Rockford has already signed six players who were in Indy last year to AHL contracts (most of those six played on ECHL deals last year). Some teams - Columbus, Boston - place very few players in the ECHL.

If a few of those AHL-contracted players end up having a solid NHL career, we'll see more and more of that.

 

[Growler]

Buffalo/Cincinnati was a notable example, too. That team was loaded and was my pre-playoff pick for the Kelly Cup.

Some teams - the ones you've noted - have gone all-in on the "oversign guys to AHL contracts and then develop them and let them earn NHL deals" model. The Blackhawks organization has done that more - Rockford has already signed six players who were in Indy last year to AHL contracts (most of those six played on ECHL deals last year). Some teams - Columbus, Boston - place very few players in the ECHL.

I noticed that too: Rockford is out of the gates early this year with a lot of contracts. Also, Detroit is signing a lot of 2 and even 3 year AHL contracts - far more than the norm. It makes me wonder if more clubs are jumping into this market and will drive up the value of the deals. I'm all in favor of this BTW.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Buffalo/Cincinnati was a notable example, too. That team was loaded and was my pre-playoff pick for the Kelly Cup.

The Cyclones had 11,12 or 13 Rochester contracted players. It really was a loaded team.

I ran into a Cyclones player at a Reds game prior to the round 1 series vs. Kalamazoo and asked him if he was worried about Kzoo. He said that he wasn't, but that Toledo would be tough. How right he was.

The Cyclones had almost a completely stable roster all season. I wonder if not having guys get called up to the AHL with more frequency and staying there a while may have hurt the team in the playoffs. Even if the stats aren't there in AHL call ups, they push a player to play at a higher level. The Cyclones had very little of that.

 

[Growler]

The Cyclones had 11,12 or 13 Rochester contracted players. It really was a loaded team.

I ran into a Cyclones player at a Reds game prior to the round 1 series vs. Kalamazoo and asked him if he was worried about Kzoo. He said that he wasn't, but that Toledo would be tough. How right he was.

The Cyclones had almost a completely stable roster all season. I wonder if not having guys get called up to the AHL with more frequency and staying there a while may have hurt the team in the playoffs. Even if the stats aren't there in AHL call ups, they push a player to play at a higher level. The Cyclones had very little of that.

Yes, by my count they had 10 Rochester and 3 Buffalo contracted players play at least 1 game for them. The Marlies would call-up most of the guys for at least a handful of games throughout the year to give them a taste. The intention is for all prospects to start with the Growlers unless they are already good enough to hold-down a regular shift with the Marlies right out of Juniors.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Yes, by my count they had 10 Rochester and 3 Buffalo contracted players play at least 1 game for them. The Marlies would call-up most of the guys for at least a handful of games throughout the year to give them a taste. The intention is for all prospects to start with the Growlers unless they are already good enough to hold-down a regular shift with the Marlies right out of Juniors.

Best of luck tomorrow! I've been watching the feeds on rogerstv youtube and have enjoyed the Growlers play. I also like their announcers.

I've had a chance to watch the Cyclones win 2 cups in person. I hope you'll have that experience either tuesday or wednesday.

 

[crimsonace]

Best of luck tomorrow! I've been watching the feeds on rogerstv youtube and have enjoyed the Growlers play. I also like their announcers.

I've had a chance to watch the Cyclones win 2 cups in person. I hope you'll have that experience either tuesday or wednesday.

I didn't get a chance to see the Indianapolis Ice win it at home in 1990 - I was a freshman in high school and my parents wouldn't let me go because it was a Monday night ... and the next three titles were all won on the road, but I did make the trip to Waterloo, Iowa to see the Indiana Ice win the USHL title in 2014. Best night I've ever spent in a hockey rink in my life. It was incredible to see a team you've followed win a title in person. I can't pick sides, but I know how incredible it is to witness a title in person.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I didn't get a chance to see the Indianapolis Ice win it at home in 1990 - I was a freshman in high school and my parents wouldn't let me go because it was a Monday night ... and the next three titles were all won on the road, but I did make the trip to Waterloo, Iowa to see the Indiana Ice win the USHL title in 2014. Best night I've ever spent in a hockey rink in my life. It was incredible to see a team you've followed win a title in person. I can't pick sides, but I know how incredible it is to witness a title in person.

I actually was at that Ice victory. Can't remember who they played off hand. Just looked it up-it was Muskegon. That was a loaded team with Gruhl, Michayluk and Callander and the Ice swept them. Bruce Cassidy who is coaching the Bruins in the SC Finals played on the Ice that year. You probably knew all of that, but I'm just revisiting some distant hockey memories.

Cincinnati didn't have hockey for almost a 10 year stretch (one year we had a CHL team) and I saw a ton of games in Indy. The Checkers of the CHL. Ron Handy and Bob Lakso and Brett Sapergia were great to watch. Loved Market Square Arena and the Fairground. Also think that the Faigrounds renovation was superb.

I've seen 6 Kelly Cups won in person. 2 by Greenville and Idaho in Dayton, the two Cyclones wins and their loss to Alaska and last season I was in Florida and caught the Everblades game 7 which was won by trophy-pilfering Colorado. I had a ticket for game 6 in Toledo this year, but got a late start/was tired and went home and watched the game on the internet instead. It's cool watching a Championship deciding game-especially when the good guys win! It's also cool to watch the other team celebrate. I've never seen an unhappy group of winners.

 

[Growler]

From today's Athletic:

The success of the Growlers began from the top with the approach of their parent team in Toronto with Leafs general manager Kyle Dubas.

“What we are doing here is somewhat unique at this point in time in that Kyle’s vision is to have a minor league system that is analogous to the paradigm used in baseball where you use your ECHL franchise as the entry-level platform for players to go,” Leafs assistant general manager Laurence Gilman said. “That’s the goal, ultimately, for us as we try to develop players in a salary cap system where it’s infinitely more cost-efficient to develop your own players than to go out and find them in the free agent market. So hopefully we continue that pipeline. Hopefully there’s graduation.”

That commitment from the Leafs organization wasn’t lost on anyone, including the league’s commissioner, Ryan Crelin.

“In the ECHL, your roster changes so much and a strong affiliation can go two ways. You can get a lot of really good players and that helps you on the ice or you can get a lot of really good players but then they get called up quickly and your roster gets depleted,” he said. “The sheer number of players that Toronto was able to provide Newfoundland, it’s a model for the ECHL to continue to work towards with our other affiliations.”

 

[LadyStanley]

31 Thoughts: Could short-term deals break RFA stalemates? - Sportsnet.ca

From Friedman's 31 Thoughts

Good nugget from one ECHL governor: several clubs were very unhappy with Newfoundland’s Kelly Cup victory, feeling the Growlers were stacked with players on AHL contracts. They thought it was a competitive imbalance and wanted to restrict the number of players with such status per roster. At the league’s Board meeting last Monday in Las Vegas, the Growlers (represented by Toronto management) didn’t back down, saying they thought it was best for the development of their prospects — that they see the Growlers as a valuable place to prepare good players who aren’t ready for the AHL. They compared it to the baseball model, where you start at Double-A and move to Triple-A before the majors. It benefits the ECHL if more teams think this way, so the temperature cooled. I thought this was pretty interesting.

I think a lot will depend on team owners.

 

[Growler]

31 Thoughts: Could short-term deals break RFA stalemates? - Sportsnet.ca

From Friedman's 31 Thoughts


I think a lot will depend on team owners.

Woa. I didn't expect "some ECHL clubs" to respond that way. Because that was the opposite of what Glenn Stanford said in his 2 interviews with Rogers TV in St. John's. Specifically, he said that opposing teams were calling him constantly about how to get the same relationship going with their affiliate clubs. He said he believes this is the way the ECHL should go in the future, and will go. Stanford by the way, is highly respected in minor league hockey circles. He has been the President of minor league clubs in the AHL and ECHL for close to 30 years.

 

[210]

Plus why would teams that were upset make it easier to qualify those tweener players for the playoffs, because that's what they just did.

I think Friedman may have been fed some bad information.

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

It looks like the growlers and leafs relationship maybe already changing the ECHL it looks like the flyers are stacking the phantoms with depth players . Leaving the younger guys coming out of Jrs . To the ECHL level . Who ever they affiliate with looks like at least for early part of the season may have some decent talent on their respective roster. Below is the article i got my info from .
What do the Flyers’ free agent signings mean for the Phantoms’ roster?

 

[Growler]

It looks like the growlers and leafs relationship maybe already changing the ECHL it looks like the flyers are stacking the phantoms with depth players . Leaving the younger guys coming out of Jrs . To the ECHL level . Who ever they affiliate with looks like at least for early part of the season may have some decent talent on their respective roster. Below is the article i got my info from .
What do the Flyers’ free agent signings mean for the Phantoms’ roster?

To test that theory out, here's your benchmark: The Flyers have been very consistent over the years in terms of signing ~11 AHL contracted players every year the past 4-5 years, and sending ~6 of those players to the ECHL at some point in the season. Likewise, they are very consistent is sending ~1 NHL contracted player to the ECHL. So, let's see if that changes this year.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

To test that theory out, here's your benchmark: The Flyers have been very consistent over the years in terms of signing ~11 AHL contracted players every year the past 4-5 years, and sending ~6 of those players to the ECHL at some point in the season. Likewise, they are very consistent is sending ~1 NHL contracted player to the ECHL. So, let's see if that changes this year.

27. Good nugget from one ECHL governor: several clubs were very unhappy with Newfoundland’s Kelly Cup victory, feeling the Growlers were stacked with players on AHL contracts. They thought it was a competitive imbalance and wanted to restrict the number of players with such status per roster. At the league’s Board meeting last Monday in Las Vegas, the Growlers (represented by Toronto management) didn’t back down, saying they thought it was best for the development of their prospects — that they see the Growlers as a valuable place to prepare good players who aren’t ready for the AHL. They compared it to the baseball model, where you start at Double-A and move to Triple-A before the majors. It benefits the ECHL if more teams think this way, so the temperature cooled. I thought this was pretty interesting.

31 Thoughts: Could short-term deals break RFA stalemates? - Sportsnet.ca

The ECHL is always trumpeting itself as a "developmental league". I don't know if it creates the most entertaining hockey, but given the tenuous economic status of so many of the ECHL franchises, I'm thinking that a closer NHL relationship is probably the way to go for many reasons.

If NHL teams see a lot of benefit in the Newfoundland-Toronto and Buffalo-Cincinnati model then I would imagine many more would follow their leads. An NHL franchise budget is probably $120 million minimum and if a $1 million expenditure per year on ECHL operations (whether through players on AHL deals or direct subsidy/ownership) bring competitive advantages to the NHL team indirectly, then it would seem like a worthwhile investment.

I'm admittedly not bullish on the state of the ECHL regarding its ability to maintain all of its current franchises. I think at least half of them are in danger if one uses a 5 years window. A revision of the current model may be of necessity if the league wants to maintain its size. The Newfoundland model might pave the way toward greater stability with many franchises.

 

[royals119]

Royals finally could get help from Philadelphia, Lehigh affiliation.
Article from today's Reading Eagle.


"Newfoundland's roster had more than a dozen NHL and AHL contracts. It was the kind of lineup sheet every ECHL team wants.
This is the way minor league hockey is trending. The model is becoming similar to baseball from Double-A through the big leagues.
The Royals, of course, have almost never been built that way. Six of their top seven scorers last season were signed by MacDonald.
The one season they were loaded by their affiliation was 2012-13 because of the lockout. That team had a parade down Penn Street.
Although no formal announcement has been made, the Royals expect to extend their agreement with the Philadelphia Flyers and AHL's Lehigh Valley Phantoms.
MacDonald is optimistic he'll receive more help from above. It won't be like Newfoundland necessarily, but it should be better."

 

[JMCx4]

@royals119 : Just to be clear, the passage you posted in quotes above is attributable to the Eagle article writer, not to Coach MacDonald. Time will tell whether this opinion comes true ...

This is the way minor league hockey is trending. The model is becoming similar to baseball from Double-A through the big leagues.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Royals finally could get help from Philadelphia, Lehigh affiliation.


The one season they were loaded by their affiliation was 2012-13 because of the lockout. That team had a parade down Penn Street.

Still cringe at games one and two of the semis that year. The team that won that series was a lock to win the cup against Stockton.

Game 1 was going to be a Cyclones win when a Reading player looked as if his pass was going around the boards and Cyclones goalie Michael Houser came out and it was tipped or went off the glass funny into the net. The Royals won in OT or 2 OT. Then game 2 went to OT or double OT.

It was a 4-1 series which was actually a nail biter.

 

[210]

The first three games of that series went OT. (Game one was 2OT). Every game was a one goal game except game 5, which was 3-1.

That's a very close series.

 

[royals119]

Still cringe at games one and two of the semis that year. The team that won that series was a lock to win the cup against Stockton.

Game 1 was going to be a Cyclones win when a Reading player looked as if his pass was going around the boards and Cyclones goalie Michael Houser came out and it was tipped or went off the glass funny into the net. The Royals won in OT or 2 OT. Then game 2 went to OT or double OT.

It was a 4-1 series which was actually a nail biter.

Bobby Shea! I remember that well. 18 years of games at the Sovereign Center/Santander Arena and that is the only time I've seen that happen. Sometimes there is a weird bounce off the Zamboni door, but that one hit the stanchion between two panes of glass about halfway between the blue line and goal line, and went straight into the net. Shea was a college kid that they signed to an ATO and he played 4 regular season games, but he was one of the heroes of that playoff run for scoring that fluky goal.