Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays Potential Relocation Thread

[Centrum Hockey]

Oakland A’s exploring possible temporary stint at Las Vegas Ballpark

Paywall. As looking at AAA Las Vegas Aviators ball park as possible temporary home while new stadium being built.

They might even utilize it if Howard Terminal approved and they stay in Oakland.

Is Fresno the rumored destination in the event that the aviators are displaced?

 

[KevFu]

(2) If you think A’s fans automatically become Giants fans [SUDDEN OUTBURSTS OF MANIACAL LAUGHTER]…

Of course it's not automatic. It would take generations. Like, it did for New England to go from split between Boston Red Sox and Boston Braves before 1952, to what it is now after the Braves moved to Milwaukee (then Atlanta).

But with no team ever coming back, the entire region would gradually turn to be fans of the only team left.

 

[LadyStanley]

Las Vegas’ tourism could get boost from A’s move to Southern Nevada
Paywall.
Editorial considerations of tourism impact of future MLB team in LV. 15-20% of VGK games may be opposing fans. 40% of Raiders PSLs bought by non residents.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Las Vegas’ tourism could get boost from A’s move to Southern Nevada
Paywall.
Editorial considerations of tourism impact of future MLB team in LV. 15-20% of VGK games may be opposing fans. 40% of Raiders PSLs bought by non residents.

yeah, but I feel the Raiders stat is misleading. A good chunk of those "non resident" PSLs were bought by casinos

 

[Mightygoose]

More sabre rattling from Manfred regarding the A's. 1 week before the council vote on the MOU for this plan.

Manfred says Athletics' fate in Oakland to be decided in coming months (sportsnet.ca)

If not approved, the A's will move forward with Vegas or any other market can be considered.

 

[KevFu]

yeah, but I feel the Raiders stat is misleading. A good chunk of those "non resident" PSLs were bought by casinos

What's really interesting to me is how we see stats like that for Vegas, but not every other city and every other sport.


I've been a dozen road games as a fan, and there's always ample fellow road fans to high five.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I feel that if Oakland loses the A's, they should be promised an expansion team further down the road.

 

[generalshepherd141]

I feel that if Oakland loses the A's, they should be promised an expansion team further down the road.

Unfortunately there's no chance of that happening. At this point MLB would rather enter new markets than foster competition in its existing ones (the Bay Area already has the Giants).

Oakland has a great, underrated fanbase and I hope the East Bay can hang onto their A's. I'm very skeptical though...

 

[oknazevad]

Is Fresno the rumored destination in the event that the aviators are displaced?

That's a possibility. But, Fresno already got bumped down because of three things: location, location, location.
What I mean by that old real estate mantra is that three aspects of the location were considered deficient for Fresno at the Triple-A level.
First, a big part of the reason for the minor league realignment was to get major league teams' higher level affiliates significantly closer to the parent club, instead of having their Triple-A team three time zones away, as had been the case in recent years with the Mets being paired with Vegas and Fresno being affiliated with Washington. Essentially, the distribution of Triple-A teams across the country was too out of line with the distribution of MLB teams. Realignment of teams not just by league but also by level was the fix for that, accomplished by bumping some lower level teams up, like Jacksonville becoming the Marlins' Triple-A affiliate (and even a couple of indie teams joining affiliated ball). That however meant that some existing Triple-A teams got bumped down and Fresno was one. If the A's move to Vegas, then the distribution wouldn't be a problem, as it would still be a western MLB team with a western Triple-A team, just with Vegas at the major league level and the Triple-A affiliate in California instead of the other way around.
The second location issue is the ballpark itself. One of the other major reasons given for the realignment was to get affiliated teams out of ballparks that were in poor shape and lacked the level of athletic facilities the parent clubs wanted their prospects to have access to. Fresno's ballpark is not bad, being it's still in affiliated ball, but it is supposedly below the new standards set for Triple-A, so any return to Triple-A would require some upgrades.
But the third location issue, and probably the biggest one that Fresno faced and still faces is that Fresno has few direct commercial flights. While Triple-A teams do fly, it's on commercial flights, not charter flights like major league teams. So having a paucity of direct commercial flights to Fresno, especially from other Triple-A West cities, makes it undesirable as a Triple-A city. It was already an issue for years. Conversely, the lower tiers travel by charter bus. In that regard Fresno fits in with a lower level much better. And there's pretty much nothing the team can do about that. They can't magically make airlines add direct flights. And they can't be allowed to travel by charter flight when all the other teams in Triple-A fly commercial, as that would be an unfair advantage.
So, ultimately, it might be infeasible for Fresno to return to Triple-A.
(The other question is if Fresno does go Triple-A, where does the Low-A affiliation wind up? It'd have to be somewhere else in California as that's where the entire Low-A West league is located. A possible location is Lancaster, where the team was dropped for Fresno in the reorganization.)

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

That's a possibility. But, Fresno already got bumped down because of three things: location, location, location.
What I mean by that old real estate mantra is that three aspects of the location were considered deficient for Fresno at the Triple-A level.
First, a big part of the reason for the minor league realignment was to get major league teams' higher level affiliates significantly closer to the parent club, instead of having their Triple-A team three time zones away, as had been the case in recent years with the Mets being paired with Vegas and Fresno being affiliated with Washington. Essentially, the distribution of Triple-A teams across the country was too out of line with the distribution of MLB teams. Realignment of teams not just by league but also by level was the fix for that, accomplished by bumping some lower level teams up, like Jacksonville becoming the Marlins' Triple-A affiliate (and even a couple of indie teams joining affiliated ball). That however meant that some existing Triple-A teams got bumped down and Fresno was one. If the A's move to Vegas, then the distribution wouldn't be a problem, as it would still be a western MLB team with a western Triple-A team, just with Vegas at the major league level and the Triple-A affiliate in California instead of the other way around.
The second location issue is the ballpark itself. One of the other major reasons given for the realignment was to get affiliated teams out of ballparks that were in poor shape and lacked the level of athletic facilities the parent clubs wanted their prospects to have access to. Fresno's ballpark is not bad, being it's still in affiliated ball, but it is supposedly below the new standards set for Triple-A, so any return to Triple-A would require some upgrades.
But the third location issue, and probably the biggest one that Fresno faced and still faces is that Fresno has few direct commercial flights. While Triple-A teams do fly, it's on commercial flights, not charter flights like major league teams. So having a paucity of direct commercial flights to Fresno, especially from other Triple-A West cities, makes it undesirable as a Triple-A city. It was already an issue for years. Conversely, the lower tiers travel by charter bus. In that regard Fresno fits in with a lower level much better. And there's pretty much nothing the team can do about that. They can't magically make airlines add direct flights. And they can't be allowed to travel by charter flight when all the other teams in Triple-A fly commercial, as that would be an unfair advantage.
So, ultimately, it might be infeasible for Fresno to return to Triple-A.
(The other question is if Fresno does go Triple-A, where does the Low-A affiliation wind up? It'd have to be somewhere else in California as that's where the entire Low-A West league is located. A possible location is Lancaster, where the team was dropped for Fresno in the reorganization.)

I'd think the St George, UT area would be a great spot for the Low-A team. 89k city pop, 171k metro. Easily accessible (~90min from Vegas driving), plenty of hotels and lots of tourists being the "base camp" city for Zion. They can easily play at Dixie State's stadium until their own is done

 

[oknazevad]

I'd think the St George, UT area would be a great spot for the Low-A team. 89k city pop, 171k metro. Easily accessible (~90min from Vegas driving), plenty of hotels and lots of tourists being the "base camp" city for Zion. They can easily play at Dixie State's stadium until their own is done

Problem is that's too far away from all the rest of the Low-A teams. Reducing travel was a major reason for the realignment.

 

[PCSPounder]

That's a possibility. But, Fresno already got bumped down because of three things: location, location, location.
What I mean by that old real estate mantra is that three aspects of the location were considered deficient for Fresno at the Triple-A level.
First, a big part of the reason for the minor league realignment was to get major league teams' higher level affiliates significantly closer to the parent club, instead of having their Triple-A team three time zones away, as had been the case in recent years with the Mets being paired with Vegas and Fresno being affiliated with Washington. Essentially, the distribution of Triple-A teams across the country was too out of line with the distribution of MLB teams. Realignment of teams not just by league but also by level was the fix for that, accomplished by bumping some lower level teams up, like Jacksonville becoming the Marlins' Triple-A affiliate (and even a couple of indie teams joining affiliated ball). That however meant that some existing Triple-A teams got bumped down and Fresno was one. If the A's move to Vegas, then the distribution wouldn't be a problem, as it would still be a western MLB team with a western Triple-A team, just with Vegas at the major league level and the Triple-A affiliate in California instead of the other way around.
The second location issue is the ballpark itself. One of the other major reasons given for the realignment was to get affiliated teams out of ballparks that were in poor shape and lacked the level of athletic facilities the parent clubs wanted their prospects to have access to. Fresno's ballpark is not bad, being it's still in affiliated ball, but it is supposedly below the new standards set for Triple-A, so any return to Triple-A would require some upgrades.
But the third location issue, and probably the biggest one that Fresno faced and still faces is that Fresno has few direct commercial flights. While Triple-A teams do fly, it's on commercial flights, not charter flights like major league teams. So having a paucity of direct commercial flights to Fresno, especially from other Triple-A West cities, makes it undesirable as a Triple-A city. It was already an issue for years. Conversely, the lower tiers travel by charter bus. In that regard Fresno fits in with a lower level much better. And there's pretty much nothing the team can do about that. They can't magically make airlines add direct flights. And they can't be allowed to travel by charter flight when all the other teams in Triple-A fly commercial, as that would be an unfair advantage.
So, ultimately, it might be infeasible for Fresno to return to Triple-A.
(The other question is if Fresno does go Triple-A, where does the Low-A affiliation wind up? It'd have to be somewhere else in California as that's where the entire Low-A West league is located. A possible location is Lancaster, where the team was dropped for Fresno in the reorganization.)

The stadium issue is BS. Unless you consider it too big for the market, and Fresno’s not THAT small, but…

Now the flights… yeah, that.

I'd think the St George, UT area would be a great spot for the Low-A team. 89k city pop, 171k metro. Easily accessible (~90min from Vegas driving), plenty of hotels and lots of tourists being the "base camp" city for Zion. They can easily play at Dixie State's stadium until their own is done

I could see St. George in the Pioneer League.

Or… if MLB continues to have to buy players from the independents, you could end up seeing a few new leagues pop up besides the Pioneer and the other converts.

 

[LadyStanley]

I do not see Aviators relocating ANYWHERE if Athletics come to LV. But temporarily, maybe, if A's use LV ball park until new facility is built. (Otherwise, facility would be used every day of the summer with no chance for grass to get a break to recover; do facility maintenance, etc.)

 

[oknazevad]

The stadium issue is BS. Unless you consider it too big for the market, and Fresno’s not THAT small, but…

It's not the stadium capacity. It's the player support facilities like indoor batting cages, minimum clubhouse size, trainer's room capabilities, bullpens that are not on the field, stuff like that. Plus improved field lighting and data capacity to allow for streaming all games. Those are the things that even the teams that did make the cut are dealing with. And the higher the level the heftier the requirements.

I could see St. George in the Pioneer League.

That would be a much better fit.

 

[oknazevad]

I do not see Aviators relocating ANYWHERE if Athletics come to LV. But temporarily, maybe, if A's use LV ball park until new facility is built. (Otherwise, facility would be used every day of the summer with no chance for grass to get a break to recover; do facility maintenance, etc.)

They wouldn't be the only team with their Triple-A affiliate in the same market. Even before the realignment, the Mariners have long had their team in Tacoma, and the Braves affiliate plays in Gwinnett, right in the suburbs. The realignment added Minnesota and Houston to that list as they adopted former indie teams in their metro areas as their Triple-A teams, too. The St Paul Saints, longtime poster children for indie ball are now the Twins' Triple-A team, as are the Sugar Land Skeeters the Astros' affiliate.

But Vegas is a smaller market than any of those, and there's a lot more to do in Vegas. I just don't think keeping the Aviators as affiliates right in the same market would work there.

 

[Mightygoose]

City and A's remain far apart 4 days before the vote.

If this is what the city approves, the team will consider it a no vote for their plan.

Lots of jostling still to come. May not be a full 96 hours coming up

 

[LadyStanley]

Athletics ballpark proposal: Takeaways from Oakland's term sheet

Here are the three big takeaways from Friday's term sheet presented by the Oakland City Council.




Yahoo sports version. Still more than $350m apart.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Honestly seems like a bit of posturing from Kaval. There seems room for agreement here. Not saying a deal gets done, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do finalize this.

Contrasting this with the failed talks between the Senators, the City of Ottawa, and the National Capital Commission. They couldn't agree on anything. For the Howard Terminal project, they can agree on details, but they are apart on financing. I suspect one (or both) sides have more room to give then they are letting on.

Will be interesting to see what happens. This is such a beautiful concept for a ballpark and it'll be a shame if this fails and they end up in a cookie cutter retractable roof field a la Seattle or Arizona in Vegas.

 

[GindyDraws]

They wouldn't be the only team with their Triple-A affiliate in the same market. Even before the realignment, the Mariners have long had their team in Tacoma, and the Braves affiliate plays in Gwinnett, right in the suburbs. The realignment added Minnesota and Houston to that list as they adopted former indie teams in their metro areas as their Triple-A teams, too. The St Paul Saints, longtime poster children for indie ball are now the Twins' Triple-A team, as are the Sugar Land Skeeters the Astros' affiliate.

But Vegas is a smaller market than any of those, and there's a lot more to do in Vegas. I just don't think keeping the Aviators as affiliates right in the same market would work there.

The thing is... in the case of Tacoma and Gwinnett, both teams have issues with attendance and other factors. Tacoma's ballpark clearly does not fit the guidelines for what Major League Baseball wants for a AAA team, but it's Seattle, plus travel is a chore up in that area, so what will you do? And Gwinnett, despite a fairly recent ballpark, has absolutely zero interest in the area when fans there are like "Why would we want to see the minor league team when the Braves are just a few miles away?", and being presented as the thrifty option has failed miserably.

The Aviators would most likely be pushed similarly as Gwinnett; something for the Vegas locals, since Las Vegas actually has a lower average income than other areas, but you run into the issue (again, like Gwinnett) where people may decide it's better to pay a few extra bucks to sit in the nosebleeds at the Athletics game than get up close with the AAA team. This new agreement has it set up where minor league teams have to foot the bill more on stadium upgrades and player management, so such a scenario would be catastrophic for Aviators ownership. Crazier things have happened, but until they got the new ballpark, the former 51s were often at the bottom of league attendance figures and barely looked at by Las Vegas residents, so who knows how long they would maintain support.

 

[oknazevad]

The thing is... in the case of Tacoma and Gwinnett, both teams have issues with attendance and other factors. Tacoma's ballpark clearly does not fit the guidelines for what Major League Baseball wants for a AAA team, but it's Seattle, plus travel is a chore up in that area, so what will you do? And Gwinnett, despite a fairly recent ballpark, has absolutely zero interest in the area when fans there are like "Why would we want to see the minor league team when the Braves are just a few miles away?", and being presented as the thrifty option has failed miserably.

The Aviators would most likely be pushed similarly as Gwinnett; something for the Vegas locals, since Las Vegas actually has a lower average income than other areas, but you run into the issue (again, like Gwinnett) where people may decide it's better to pay a few extra bucks to sit in the nosebleeds at the Athletics game than get up close with the AAA team. This new agreement has it set up where minor league teams have to foot the bill more on stadium upgrades and player management, so such a scenario would be catastrophic for Aviators ownership. Crazier things have happened, but until they got the new ballpark, the former 51s were often at the bottom of league attendance figures and barely looked at by Las Vegas residents, so who knows how long they would maintain support.

All very true, and why I personally would be skeptical of the Triple-A team staying long term. But the Knights are having their farm team play in the burbs, so it wouldn't even be unprecedented in the market.

 

[LadyStanley]

The Aviators are 20 miles or so from the Strip in Summerlin (town). A lot of the western valley will/can attend.

(And fans of visiting teams who come for the game and the rest of the LV experience)


The major league stadium may be downtown or adjacent to the resort corridor. Makes it more difficult for local fans to attend (parking and traffic).

 

[LadyStanley]

Anti-smoking group taking another swing at casino smoking ban

Paywall. MLB does not allow smoking in stadiums. Non smoking coalition may push for Nevada to become non smoking in casinos if Athletics relocate to LV.

 

[PhillyWings]

 

[LadyStanley]

Hmmm

 

[Mightygoose]

Now we get to see how serious the A's are in working with Vegas or any other locale.

Non Binding, so there's room to negotiate....the saga continues.