pluppe
Registered User
- Apr 6, 2009
- 693
- 3
I think this is very hard to argue.
In my opinion Pronger, Nierdermayer, Giugere, PÃ¥hlsson, Getzlaf and Beauchemin was more important.
I think this is very hard to argue.
In my opinion Pronger, Nierdermayer, Giugere, PÃ¥hlsson, Getzlaf and Beauchemin was more important.
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
I'm afraid it's impossible to look at Kurri without looking at the era and the team he played on, they are big factors. Kurri was obviously an excellent player but you score 70+ goals and there's a guy on your team with over 130 assists..it would be difficult to not see a relationship here. I mean Mike Krushelnyski was a 40 goal scorer that same year on the Oilers. And then you couple that with a league where 15 or so out of 21 teams scored more than 300 goals a season.
I guess it comes down to whether you think the 80s just had an uncanny assembly of offensive talent or whether you think it was an era of inflated scoring due to a thinned out talent pool after expansion and the best Eastern Europeans missing or a discrepancy between offensive techniques and goalie techniques etc.
One fact to consider however is that Selanne scored 76 in his rookie year (5 more than Kurri scored in his best year), 92-93 which could be considered the last hurrah of that high-scoring era. Yet arguably Selanne hit his peak in the 1996-99 years where league scoring was way down. It's hard to imagine that if Selanne had hit that peak in the mid to late 80s his numbers wouldn't have been on a higher level, say a Brett Hull late 80s early 90s level.
I guess it comes down to whether you think the 80s just had an uncanny assembly of offensive talent or whether you think it was an era of inflated scoring due to a thinned out talent pool after expansion and the best Eastern Europeans missing or a discrepancy between offensive techniques and goalie techniques etc.
One fact to consider however is that Selanne scored 76 in his rookie year (5 more than Kurri scored in his best year), 92-93 which could be considered the last hurrah of that high-scoring era. Yet arguably Selanne hit his peak in the 1996-99 years where league scoring was way down. It's hard to imagine that if Selanne had hit that peak in the mid to late 80s his numbers wouldn't have been on a higher level, say a Brett Hull late 80s early 90s level.
EKaneTakesLives
Lurker since '05
Original Post left out the fact that Kurri also lead the league in Goal Scoring 1 season with 68
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
Just as an aside, if we are discussing Finish international accomplishments. I could swear I read somewhere that Koivu, not Selanne, has the best International resume of any Finish player.
That said, I have Kurri ahead but it's close. I think for the most part, Selanne's offensive accomplishments are relatively more impressive than Kurri's, plus he has a better international resume. But those aren't enough to eclipse Kurri's substantially better all-round game and playoff exploits. But it's damn close between the two. It's really too bad Selanne had that injury early in his career. As good as he's been, he was probably destined to be better.
That said, I have Kurri ahead but it's close. I think for the most part, Selanne's offensive accomplishments are relatively more impressive than Kurri's, plus he has a better international resume. But those aren't enough to eclipse Kurri's substantially better all-round game and playoff exploits. But it's damn close between the two. It's really too bad Selanne had that injury early in his career. As good as he's been, he was probably destined to be better.
Where the Finnish Flash ranks among total career NHL goals (Reg. + PO) ...
1 - Gretzky: 1,016 G / 1,695 GP - (0.60 GPG)
2 - Howe: 869 G / 1,924 GP - (0.45 GPG)
3 - Br. Hull: 844 G / 1,471 GP - (0.57 GPG)
4 - Messier: 803 G / 1,992 GP - (0.40 GPG)
5 - Esposito: 778 G / 1,412 GP - (0.55 GPG)
6 - Lemieux: 766 G / 1,022 GP - (0.75 GPG)
7 - Yzerman: 762 G / 1,710 GP - (0.45 GPG)
8 - Dione: 752 G / 1,397 GP - (0.54 GPG)
9 - Gartner: 751 G / 1,554 GP - (0.48 GPG)
10 - Robitaille: 726 G / 1,590 GP - (0.46 GPG)
11 - Jagr: 723 G / 1,442 GP - (0.50 GPG)
12 - Shanahan: 716 G / 1,708 GP - (0.42 GPG)
13 - Sakic: 709 G / 1,550 GP - (0.46 GPG)
14 - Kurri: 707 G / 1,451 GP - (0.49 GPG)
15 - Andreychuk: 683 G / 1,801 GP - (0.38 GPG)
16 - Ciccarelli: 681 G / 1,373 GP - (0.50 GPG)
17 - Bo. Hull: 672 G / 1,182 GP - (0.57 GPG)
18 - Selanne: 661 G / 1,344 GP - (0.49 GPG)
1 - Gretzky: 1,016 G / 1,695 GP - (0.60 GPG)
2 - Howe: 869 G / 1,924 GP - (0.45 GPG)
3 - Br. Hull: 844 G / 1,471 GP - (0.57 GPG)
4 - Messier: 803 G / 1,992 GP - (0.40 GPG)
5 - Esposito: 778 G / 1,412 GP - (0.55 GPG)
6 - Lemieux: 766 G / 1,022 GP - (0.75 GPG)
7 - Yzerman: 762 G / 1,710 GP - (0.45 GPG)
8 - Dione: 752 G / 1,397 GP - (0.54 GPG)
9 - Gartner: 751 G / 1,554 GP - (0.48 GPG)
10 - Robitaille: 726 G / 1,590 GP - (0.46 GPG)
11 - Jagr: 723 G / 1,442 GP - (0.50 GPG)
12 - Shanahan: 716 G / 1,708 GP - (0.42 GPG)
13 - Sakic: 709 G / 1,550 GP - (0.46 GPG)
14 - Kurri: 707 G / 1,451 GP - (0.49 GPG)
15 - Andreychuk: 683 G / 1,801 GP - (0.38 GPG)
16 - Ciccarelli: 681 G / 1,373 GP - (0.50 GPG)
17 - Bo. Hull: 672 G / 1,182 GP - (0.57 GPG)
18 - Selanne: 661 G / 1,344 GP - (0.49 GPG)
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tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
127th sounds like a steal, but what is the actual purpose of the all-time draft? I was asked to co manage a team but frankly just didn't have the time to commit to it.
Interesting list but is there any point to it? It's littered with players who had part or most of their careers in the high scoring 80's.
Bossy is 19th with 658 goals in 881 games for a 0.75 GPG average. Just saying.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,779
- 16,507
Makes sense. He's really not there with the top RW'ers, but that's a position with great high-end players and bad "depth", or so to speak. To be honest, I'd still prefer to pick a guy like Bryan Hextall (Selanne is close to a one-trick pony as far as ATD's are concerned), but Selanne is the better player.
The thread is about Selanne, so logically I chose him as the cutoff.
It is for this very reason that I included the GPG, hoping the reader would recognize that Selanne's 0.49 GPG in the golden era of goaltending is of greater value than, say, Gartner's (0.48) or Ciccarelli's (0.50) respective scoring rates.
Personally, the number of games played was my favorite stat. See how many games some players needed to reach their total is rather telling.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,779
- 16,507
Actually, it is not a steal at all.
Selanne is not in the Top-10 RW's, which is the position with the biggest drop-off. And there are guys that would rank lower than Selanne (like, Bryan Hextall, Hooley Smith) that I'd always pick ahead of Selanne. 127th is reasonable, but no steal.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,779
- 16,507
Smith is terrific two-way glue guy who can play on any first line.
Hextall is basically Selanne with a shorter career, but tougher. Good defensively as well. Not Smith-good, but good.
All in all, Selanne was better, but for the sake of team-building, both Smith and Hextall are more interesting options, unless you want Selanne on a 2nd line.
I still think if Selanne never had that injury in 93/94, he would have had at least 3 if not 4 more 100 point seasons, and definitely more 50 goal seasons.
I'd say Selanne are Kurri are about equal, but I'll give the edge to Selanne!
I'd say Selanne are Kurri are about equal, but I'll give the edge to Selanne!
Except Hextall really wasn't as good as Sellanne offensively when we compare both guys at their peaks, never mind Selanne's staying power.
Granted Hextall missed a couple of seasons at his peak due to the war and entered late due to other options but people talk about Selanne's poor playoff performance have you looked at Hextall's?
It makes Selanne's look awesome.
As for Hooley Smith, I never saw him play and doubt many posters here ever did and we really have to take the written accounts with a grain of salt as writers and observers were not nearly as critical and as objective as some are today.
The fact that he didn't make the HHOF until 1972 is somewhat telling though in that he probably doesn't deserve to really be in there.
I went and had a peek at the ATD and found at 1st glance that some players are being over glorified and there is a lack of a critical eye to some of the players and the circumstances they played in but I don't know enough about the criteria to tell you the truth.
The gut test tells me that if something (like the ATD) seriously considers Hextall and/or Smith over Selanne then I'm glad I didn't partake in it, no offense intended.
Heck I'm pretty sure that I can make a decent argument that Butch Goring and John Tonelli were just as good as the 2 guys being mentioned here in terms of overall value.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,779
- 16,507
Huummm...
Well, for starters, Hextall led the NHL in goals twice, and won one Art Ross. Selanne led the NHL in goals thrice (and no Art Ross). Both players played their careers (or part of their careers) when "skill level" was somewhat low.
Both could never be considered the best forwards in the NHL, but they weren't that far behind either. Selanne was up against Jagr, a not-always-100% Lemieux, and Sakic. Kinda disgregarding Stevie Y here, mainly because he was no threat for the scoring title anymore. Same for Messier). Hextall was up against Schmidt and Apps during their best seasons, and also got competition from Bill Cowley -- a player I'd rank ahead of both Selanne and Hextall.
Playoffs? Hextall's number aren't great, and they're below-expectations for a guy with his resume. They aren't as dreadful as they look, but they aren't great. Pretty much in Selanne's territory. And he has a SC GWG.
Now, Selanne is a better player than Hextall. But then again -- chances are, if you have no RW when you're about to pick a guy like Selanne, it's because you probably have either an elite C, and elite LW, or both. Those guys probably not need a go-to player to play with them (because they're the go-to guys!), but could always use a "complementary" player. At this aspect of the game, Hextall is flat out better than Selanne. Both guys don't look out of place on a 1st line, but you might need a Hextall more than you'd need a Selanne.
I never picked Selanne in those drafts, and I picked Hextall once @160-something to play on my 2nd line (Hextall was my best RW, however). Then again, in my 4 ATD's experience, I always had a better RW than Selanne (Mikhailov, Richard, Geoffrion), except for the one where I picked Hextall, but I was drafting the Powerhouse Line and the Speedball line, so there was no room for Selanne.
In the grand scheme of things, Selanne and Hextall are Top-28 RW (so, technicaly, first liners in a 28-team draft), and they're probably Top-24 as well. Hextall isn't more "valued" than Selanne, it's just that I'd pick Hextall ahead of Selanne 75% of the time (like, having a elite support player on LW (actually, a grinder that could win a scoring title) and a quick playmaking C with rather good physicality -- Think of a Dickie Moore - Peter Forsberg - Teemu Selanne line, or a Ted Lindsay - Syl Apps - Teemu Selanne line.
Sure, I never saw Hooley Smith play a game. But then again, what would be the point of making an ATD if the "ha ha, we never saw that guy play and the media isn't objective" would be a receiveable argument? It would be a post-WW2 fantasy draft and that would be somewhat pointless.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,145
Why? You should elaborate on this. Kurri's resume is just too hard to overlook. The playoffs, the reverance he had during his playing years and the fact that with my eyes I see Kurri slightly being the better player. Kurri had the two-way play while Selanne had nothing to brag about in that area.
Where the Finnish Flash ranks among the leaders in total career NHL points (Reg. + PO) ...
1 - Gretzky: 3,239 PTS - 1,695 GP - (1.91 PPG)
2 - Messier: 2,182 PTS - 1,992 GP - (1.10 PPG)
3 - Howe: 2,010 PTS - 1,924 GP - (1.04 PPG)
4 - Francis: 1,941 PTS - 1,902 GP - (1.02 PPG)
5 - Yzerman: 1,940 PTS - 1,710 GP - (1.13 PPG)
6 - Lemieux: 1,895 PTS - 1,022 GP - (1.85 PPG)
7 - Sakic: 1,829 PTS - 1,550 GP - (1.18 PPG)
8 - Dionne: 1,816 PTS - 1,397 GP - (1.30 PPG)
9 - Jagr: 1,780 PTS - 1,442 GP (1.23 PPG)
10 - Bourque: 1,759 PTS - 1,826 - (0.96 PPG)
11 - Esposito: 1,727 PTS - 1,412 GP (1.22 PPG)
12 - Coffey: 1,727 PTS - 1,603 GP - (1.08 PPG)
13 - Recchi: 1,659 PTS - 1,794 GP - (0.92 PPG)
14 - Kurri: 1,631 PTS - 1,451 GP - (1.12 GP)
15 - Mikita: 1,617 PTS - 1,549 GP - (1.04 PPG)
16 - Trottier: 1,609 PTS - 1,500 GP - (1.07 PPG)
17 - Gilmour: 1,602 PTS - 1,656 GP - (0.97 PPG)
18 - Br. Hull: 1,581 PTS - 1,471 GP - (1.07 PPG)
19 - Oates: 1,576 PTS - 1,500 GP - (1.05 PPG)
20 - Robitaille: 1,521 PTS - 1,590 GP - (0.96 PPG)
21 - D.Savard: 1,513 PTS - 1,365 GP (1.11 PPG)
22 - Modano: 1,512 PT - 1,653 GP (0.91 PPG)
23 - Hawerchuk: 1,508 PTS - 1,285 GP - (1.17 PPG)
24 - Shanahan: 1,488 PTS - 1,708 GP - (0.87 PPG)
25 - Lafleur: 1,487 PTS - 1,255 GP - (1.18 PPG)
26 - Bucyk: 1,472 PTS - 1,664 GP - (0.88 PPG)
27 - Andreychuk: 1,435 PTS - 1,801 GP (0.80 PPG)
28 - MacInnis: 1,434 PTS - 1,593 GP - (0.90 PPG)
29 - Sundin: 1,431 PTS - 1,437 GP - (1.00 PPG)
30 - Perreault: 1,429 PTS - 1,281 GP - (1.12 PPG)
31 - Gartner: 1,428 PTS - 1,554 GP - (0.92 PPG)
32 - Turgeon: 1,424 PTS - 1,403 GP - (1.01 PPG)
33 - Beliveau: 1,395 PTS - 1,287 GP - (1.08 PPG)
34 - Selanne: 1,389 PTS - 1,344 GP - (1.03 PPG)
1 - Gretzky: 3,239 PTS - 1,695 GP - (1.91 PPG)
2 - Messier: 2,182 PTS - 1,992 GP - (1.10 PPG)
3 - Howe: 2,010 PTS - 1,924 GP - (1.04 PPG)
4 - Francis: 1,941 PTS - 1,902 GP - (1.02 PPG)
5 - Yzerman: 1,940 PTS - 1,710 GP - (1.13 PPG)
6 - Lemieux: 1,895 PTS - 1,022 GP - (1.85 PPG)
7 - Sakic: 1,829 PTS - 1,550 GP - (1.18 PPG)
8 - Dionne: 1,816 PTS - 1,397 GP - (1.30 PPG)
9 - Jagr: 1,780 PTS - 1,442 GP (1.23 PPG)
10 - Bourque: 1,759 PTS - 1,826 - (0.96 PPG)
11 - Esposito: 1,727 PTS - 1,412 GP (1.22 PPG)
12 - Coffey: 1,727 PTS - 1,603 GP - (1.08 PPG)
13 - Recchi: 1,659 PTS - 1,794 GP - (0.92 PPG)
14 - Kurri: 1,631 PTS - 1,451 GP - (1.12 GP)
15 - Mikita: 1,617 PTS - 1,549 GP - (1.04 PPG)
16 - Trottier: 1,609 PTS - 1,500 GP - (1.07 PPG)
17 - Gilmour: 1,602 PTS - 1,656 GP - (0.97 PPG)
18 - Br. Hull: 1,581 PTS - 1,471 GP - (1.07 PPG)
19 - Oates: 1,576 PTS - 1,500 GP - (1.05 PPG)
20 - Robitaille: 1,521 PTS - 1,590 GP - (0.96 PPG)
21 - D.Savard: 1,513 PTS - 1,365 GP (1.11 PPG)
22 - Modano: 1,512 PT - 1,653 GP (0.91 PPG)
23 - Hawerchuk: 1,508 PTS - 1,285 GP - (1.17 PPG)
24 - Shanahan: 1,488 PTS - 1,708 GP - (0.87 PPG)
25 - Lafleur: 1,487 PTS - 1,255 GP - (1.18 PPG)
26 - Bucyk: 1,472 PTS - 1,664 GP - (0.88 PPG)
27 - Andreychuk: 1,435 PTS - 1,801 GP (0.80 PPG)
28 - MacInnis: 1,434 PTS - 1,593 GP - (0.90 PPG)
29 - Sundin: 1,431 PTS - 1,437 GP - (1.00 PPG)
30 - Perreault: 1,429 PTS - 1,281 GP - (1.12 PPG)
31 - Gartner: 1,428 PTS - 1,554 GP - (0.92 PPG)
32 - Turgeon: 1,424 PTS - 1,403 GP - (1.01 PPG)
33 - Beliveau: 1,395 PTS - 1,287 GP - (1.08 PPG)
34 - Selanne: 1,389 PTS - 1,344 GP - (1.03 PPG)
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He's also 1 of 8 players on the list who didn't play in the 80's. He had exactly 1 full season of a high scoring era, his rookie, then played most of his career in the dead puck era, and was hobbled for 3 of those years.
To me, there's no question about Selanne's career, prime, peak, even playoff performance isn't horrible overall considering his situations, and his international resume really is amazing. Top 70 player atleast, and in my mind has to be ranked better than Kurri as the greatest Finnish player.
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
Pronger, Pahlsson, Niedermayer, Getzlaf, and Giguere were far more important to that team during the playoffs than Selanne was.
Pahlsson and Giguere are atleast arguable. There was no denying the overall team d infront of him, and Pahlsson played a key shutdown role but the wingers on his line contributed almost as much as he did. I think Selanne was arguably more important than them. Whether he was the most or least important isn't going to change anything in this overall discussion though.
For regular season here are the leaders (adjusted, not perfect but better than raw stats) of all time.
Selanne is 5th
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/goals_adjusted_career.html
For points he dips down to 15th
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_career.html
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
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