Will Patrick Marleau break Gordie Howe's record?

[koyvoo]

There have been less players over the history of the league who could play in the best league in the world for over 20 years than there have been players who have put up 1200-1300 pts or so over a career.

The longevity doesn’t take away from the argument to me, it adds to it. Playing in the NHL for that long is a rare, rare feat that only a handful of players have been able to do, and it is in itself a Hall worthy accomplishment, IMO.

 

[pabst blue ribbon]

If GM's are still offering offering him contracts and coaches are still penciling him into lineups than more power to him

 

[BagHead]

because when it comes time for things like Hall discussion, people will point to his career totals "but 500 goals/1000 points" etc and ignore that it took him more games than anyone has played to get there. They look like greatness without ever being great

That's why people get angry about compilers. Once retired, they get put into an echelon of player above their actual ability or impact. It's the main thing watering down the HOF quality.

Marleau is not a HOF player, but because he played forever he will have compiled HOF level career totals.

I get it, I just see it from a different angle. His compiling a huge amount of stats in a huge amount of games doesn't strike me as a negative. Instead it seems to me to be a measure of his consistency as a strong (not elite) offensive player, mixed with durability and an ability to age well.

People made the exact opposite of the "compiler" argument for why Lindros shouldn't be in the HHOF. If Lindros was that echelon of player at his peak (and he surely was), then clearly that argument isn't the whole story. What should be the guidelines for getting into the HHOF? I'm a bit at a loss here. I suppose this may just be a bunch of different people valuing different things, and everyone having an opinion. Because of that, I don't think it's possible to find a true answer to this, but I am curious on what your requirements would be?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Personally, I would have liked to have seen one of the all-time greats like Messier or Jagr beat Howe's NHL regular season games played record, as opposed to a good, but unspectacular player like Marleau.

Oh well, best of luck to him. If he breaks the record, it still doesn't provide an compelling case for him as a hall of fame player.

 

[Iapyi]

It's so easy to distinguish the posters who haven't actually played hockey.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Inb4 Babcock gets hired as the Sharks HC and benches Patty for the last game of the 45 game season

 

[moropanov]

It is very impressive if Marleau manages to break the record and set a new standard for NHL longevity.

 

[5 Minute Major]

What a shame it will be when Marleau does break it.

 

[Tom Polakis]

There have been less players over the history of the league who could play in the best league in the world for over 20 years than there have been players who have put up 1200-1300 pts or so over a career.

The longevity doesn’t take away from the argument to me, it adds to it. Playing in the NHL for that long is a rare, rare feat that only a handful of players have been able to do, and it is in itself a Hall worthy accomplishment, IMO.

Good argument. That's why players like Gartner and Andreychuk absolutely belong in the Hall of Fame. I never understood why a short-lived peak is so overvalued on this site.

 

[RageQuit77]

There have been less players over the history of the league who could play in the best league in the world for over 20 years than there have been players who have put up 1200-1300 pts or so over a career.

The longevity doesn’t take away from the argument to me, it adds to it. Playing in the NHL for that long is a rare, rare feat that only a handful of players have been able to do, and it is in itself a Hall worthy accomplishment, IMO.

HFBHOF-worthy comment. Certainly worthy to quote only for a sake of quotation. In this particular context, great!

There should be NHL-trophy/award for longevity. Something Masterton-like with minimum of 20 years of NHL career to be even eligible for the award. Would change people's perception on these allegedly "over-long" careers.

If a player is able to play, and some team is ready to pay for it, that's all needed to be NHL-player of sufficient level by definition, regardless of age. Patrick Marleau CLEARLY is, and as such very well worthy one to put that already too old record to the history.

 

[Strakanator]

Marleau is overated.

Marleau was once a good complementary player. He was never a player to build around. Somehow Marleau got over-hyped for years.

Thorton, on the other hand, was a true star.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think the best historical comparison for marleau is dean prentice.

when prentice retired, he'd played an amazing 22 seasons. he didn't break any records, because there was gordie howe. but here was the top five in games played in 1974, as of prentice's last game:

1. gordie howe - 1,687 games, 25 seasons
2. alex delvecchio - 1,550 games, 22 seasons and bits of two others
3. tim horton - 1,445 games, 22 seasons and bits of two others
4. harry howell - 1,411 games, 21 seasons but was a little healthier than prentice
5. dean prentice - 1,378 games, 22 seasons
6. ron stewart - 1,353 games, 21 seasons
7. norm ullman - 1,330 games, 21 seasons
8. red kelly - 1,316 games, 20 seasons

other than ullman, those guys were all retired. the next two guys were also active, bucyk in 9th and doug mohns, who was a year away from retiring but hung on to just pass prentice for 4th, in 10th. ullman also only played one more year and also passed prentice, bumping him to 7th. bucyk bumped him to 8th a year after that. in 1979 mikita would bump prentice to 9th.

but here's my point: prentice wasn't bumped to 10th until 1992, when larry robinson passed him. that top ten of howe, delvecchio, bucyk, horton, howell, ullman, mikita, mohns, prentice, stewart stayed intact for a long time, more than a decade.

(it wasn't until 1998 that mike gartner, larry murphy, and gretzky all hit the top ten at the same time, pushing mohns, robinson, and prentice out. messier and bourque joined them a year later, and before you knew it it's the lockout and prentice is tied for 26th with vinnie damphousse.)

but dean prentice never made the hall of fame. for along time he was pretty high on the hall of very good list, but the committee never relented on him the way they eventually did on dave andreychuk. and prentice had some high moments: he was a second team all-star in 1960, at LW behind bobby hull. he was a stalwart on the rangers' big first line with andy bathgate and larry popein. he finished top ten in goals twice, peaking at 4th in 1960, when he also finished 10th in points. he finished 8th in assists in 1962.

he didn't win any cups but made the finals in 1966 with the red wings, reunited with bathgate as now secondary players behind gordie howe and norm ullman.

this is basically patrick marleau's career, no?

another interesting note: horton, howell, prentice, and stewart were all rookies in 1953.

in 1998, marleau (5th), thornton (9th), chara (15th), and matt cullen (20th) were all rookies. in the same way that prentice's incredible longevity looks not quite so good when you had three other guys he was rookies with him all in the same ballpark, including two hall of famers, it's the same with marleau alongside his contemporaries, two of whom are also still active, incidentally. marleau has more games than them, because he was incredibly durable, but he hasn't outlasted them, yet anyway. they all are at the exact same 22 years as prentice.

 

[fEyD08]

I hate when records like this go to players who sticked around long enough, despite being useless for a long time.

That really hurts to read this.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Gordie Howe put up a 103 point season at age 40, and a 41 point season at age 51. I don't think Marleau topping him will take away anything from his legacy, though Marleau is pretty clearly done as a useful player.

Just goes to show how much better the players are in general. No chance a 50 year old senior would sniff the NHL in 2020. Its hard enough staying competitive past 35 LOL

 

[JThorne]

if he had any respect for the history of the game, he should not pursue it and leave it to Howe

If you had any respect for the game, you'd stop posting and let other people have it.

Am I doing it right? Your comment is laughable at best.

 

[THE HOFF]

From the outside it looks like the sharks got a bit sentimental on this one. the few games I saw him this year he looked finished, maybe I'm wrong. hard time to imagine him being around for a while.

 

[HotDish]

This thread reeks of takes like we saw when Roger Maris was going to break Babe Ruth's homerun record.

We need to put an asterisk, Not fair he played during a time when seasons have more games, he needs to retire and not break it.

records are meant to be broken. If Marleau breaks it, well one day it will be broken again. That's life.

 

[innitfam]

Inb4 Babcock gets hired as the Sharks HC and benches Patty for the last game of the 45 game season

Such a dick move by Babcock. IIRC Red Wings were already locked into their playoff matchup. The game meant nothing at all.

 

[HF007]

Lots of salty hate for patty, he was the best in NHL 03. Howe will still be known as the goat Ironman regardless..

 

[5 Minute Major]

Will be a magnificent moment. After that the overrating of the most overrated player with the most undeserved and gringy nickname will quickly fade away and we will finally have the GOATs of the game rated based on talent not longevity.

Go for it Marleau, boot Gordie the f*** out of the big 4!

Pretty ignorant post on your part but ignorance knows no boundaries.

 

[Barrie22]

i think the best historical comparison for marleau is dean prentice.

when prentice retired, he'd played an amazing 22 seasons. he didn't break any records, because there was gordie howe. but here was the top five in games played in 1974, as of prentice's last game:

1. gordie howe - 1,687 games, 25 seasons
2. alex delvecchio - 1,550 games, 22 seasons and bits of two others
3. tim horton - 1,445 games, 22 seasons and bits of two others
4. harry howell - 1,411 games, 21 seasons but was a little healthier than prentice
5. dean prentice - 1,378 games, 22 seasons
6. ron stewart - 1,353 games, 21 seasons
7. norm ullman - 1,330 games, 21 seasons
8. red kelly - 1,316 games, 20 seasons

other than ullman, those guys were all retired. the next two guys were also active, bucyk in 9th and doug mohns, who was a year away from retiring but hung on to just pass prentice for 4th, in 10th. ullman also only played one more year and also passed prentice, bumping him to 7th. bucyk bumped him to 8th a year after that. in 1979 mikita would bump prentice to 9th.

but here's my point: prentice wasn't bumped to 10th until 1992, when larry robinson passed him. that top ten of howe, delvecchio, bucyk, horton, howell, ullman, mikita, mohns, prentice, stewart stayed intact for a long time, more than a decade.

(it wasn't until 1998 that mike gartner, larry murphy, and gretzky all hit the top ten at the same time, pushing mohns, robinson, and prentice out. messier and bourque joined them a year later, and before you knew it it's the lockout and prentice is tied for 26th with vinnie damphousse.)

but dean prentice never made the hall of fame. for along time he was pretty high on the hall of very good list, but the committee never relented on him the way they eventually did on dave andreychuk. and prentice had some high moments: he was a second team all-star in 1960, at LW behind bobby hull. he was a stalwart on the rangers' big first line with andy bathgate and larry popein. he finished top ten in goals twice, peaking at 4th in 1960, when he also finished 10th in points. he finished 8th in assists in 1962.

he didn't win any cups but made the finals in 1966 with the red wings, reunited with bathgate as now secondary players behind gordie howe and norm ullman.

this is basically patrick marleau's career, no?

another interesting note: horton, howell, prentice, and stewart were all rookies in 1953.

in 1998, marleau (5th), thornton (9th), chara (15th), and matt cullen (20th) were all rookies. in the same way that prentice's incredible longevity looks not quite so good when you had three other guys he was rookies with him all in the same ballpark, including two hall of famers, it's the same with marleau alongside his contemporaries, two of whom are also still active, incidentally. marleau has more games than them, because he was incredibly durable, but he hasn't outlasted them, yet anyway. they all are at the exact same 22 years as prentice.

Career high in goals 32. Career high in points 66. 861 career points.

Compared to career high in points 86. Career high in goals 44. 1188 career points. Marleau has 6 seasons over prentice career high in points. And 6 seasons over his career high in goals.

Neither are hall of fame worthy. But marleau is on another level then prentice was other then games played at retirement.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Career high in goals 32. Career high in points 66. 861 career points.

Compared to career high in points 86. Career high in goals 44. 1188 career points. Marleau has 6 seasons over prentice career high in points. And 6 seasons over his career high in goals.

Neither are hall of fame worthy. But marleau is on another level then prentice was other then games played at retirement.

you do realize that dean prentice played in the 1950s and 60s, when zero players scored 100 points and they played 70 games a year.

when he retired prentice was 13th all time in points. every other player in the top twenty was a slam dunk hall of famer. you can find that list here — NHL Stats

you also realize that dean prentice finished higher in assists and points than marleau ever did; marleau never cracked the top ten in either and afaict his highest placement was 14th. marleau's best goal scoring year ties prentice's, both finished fourth.

you also realize that dean prentice has finished as a postseason all-star, a level marleau never reached.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Career high in goals 32. Career high in points 66. 861 career points.

Compared to career high in points 86. Career high in goals 44. 1188 career points. Marleau has 6 seasons over prentice career high in points. And 6 seasons over his career high in goals.

Neither are hall of fame worthy. But marleau is on another level then prentice was other then games played at retirement.

Comparing season and career stats for players who played in eras with a different number of games per season?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Will be a magnificent moment. After that the overrating of the most overrated player with the most undeserved and gringy nickname will quickly fade away and we will finally have the GOATs of the game rated based on talent not longevity.

Go for it Marleau, boot Gordie the f*** out of the big 4!

time to dust this one off

when i was a kid, i used to think howe was just some guy who played for five million years. for context, you need to understand a few things:

- that this was a time long before the internet so i can't just google his stats and see that he murdered the competition by almost 20 points a year between '51 and '54 in a very low scoring environment. hell, i can't even find out that he won all those art rosses and hart trophies. i literally think he's just an average player who happened to play into his 50s. (to be fair, i'm just eight years old and you get one sound byte per player in the scholastic kid's book on hockey: bobby orr's skating, bobby clarke's toughness, the rocket's red glare; howe's was how incredibly long he played.)

- that this is right when gretzky is overtaking him as the all-time scoring leader. and gretzky's 28 years old. so how good can this guy who played until he was 51 really be? (again, i'm just a kid with no access to the information so i don't know that he wasn't in the NHL between '72 and '79; i just know what i hear on HNIC so i think he retired then immediately changed his mind and came back to play with his sons; i don't know what the WHA is, or that there are two different record books.)

- that i'm just an 8, 9, 10, 11 year old kid who thinks everyone's stupid except me. it takes someone that young to think that it would never have occurred to anyone that the accumulated career stats of this guy who was just okay but played for 30-odd years aren't as impressive as stars who only played 10-15 years. it also takes someone with that much naïveté to never have it occur to him that there might be some crucial information or context that he's missing.

so anyway, jump forward a few years. i'm in fifth grade (we're in 1992 now) and we had a project in social studies about great canadians. you know, go to the public library, take out some books, give a report in front of the class about your great canadian. i don't remember who mine was, i want to say mackenzie king, but one kid got gordie howe. that was my omg gordie howe has a legit argument as the greatest ever moment.

 

[Hockeyholic]

It just seems "Wrong" that Patrick Marleau is the one breaking the record. Nothing on him. But he's a good player. Would feel different if it were an Ovi or Crosby.

And no Marleau isn't at fault. I'm saying you'd prefer a better player break it.