Will Ovechkin beat Gretzky in all-time goals?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Refuse

Sin City Soldiers
Aug 23, 2005
2,421
1,070
The reason those teams were "stacked" was cause of Gretzky! Without Gretzky, that Oilers team wouldn't have been that great. Look at them once Gretz was gone, they were not close, and none of the players on that team came close to those numbers with Gretzky not on their team. Whereas Gretzky continued to dominate without them. Messier may have scored 50, but Gretzky would have drawn the best defenders, leaving Messier to pick apart the rest. Kurri's talent was highly tied to Wayne, as without him, he is nowhere near the numbers he put up. Point being, the Oilers could have had a much worse roster and Wayne would still have put up awesome numbers. He also did quite well on the Kings who weren't exactly the greatest team. Also, not like Ovechkin has been playing with scrubs for teammates. He had Semin when he was still good, and has had one of the best centers in the game, for pretty much his whole career in Backstrom.
They won the cup one season after Gretzkys first season in LA.
 

Refuse

Sin City Soldiers
Aug 23, 2005
2,421
1,070
It was actually the second season .gretz was traded in 88 they won the cup in 89-90
Which is exactly what I wrote. One season after Gretzky's first in LA.

Last season with Gretzky: 2nd in Smythe, 99 points, 363 goals, won the cup
Next season: 3rd in Smythe, 84 points, 306 goals, lost in first round
Following season: 2nd in Smythe, 90 points, 315 goals, won the cup

The team had to figure out how to win without the great one of course, but make no mistake, it was still a very good team. Financial issues was already tearing it apart though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bertuzzzi44

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,764
10,302
Which is exactly what I wrote. One season after Gretzky's first in LA.

Last season with Gretzky: 2nd in Smythe, 99 points, 363 goals, won the cup
Next season: 3rd in Smythe, 84 points, 306 goals, lost in first round
Following season: 2nd in Smythe, 90 points, 315 goals, won the cup

The team had to figure out how to win without the great one of course, but make no mistake, it was still a very good team. Financial issues was already tearing it apart though.

The financial part is true, but if Gretzky was on another team right from the start and the Oilers had the exact same roster, whatever team Gretzky was on, almost guaranteed would have become the dominant one, because he was light years ahead of everyone else talent wise.
 

Refuse

Sin City Soldiers
Aug 23, 2005
2,421
1,070
The financial part is true, but if Gretzky was on another team right from the start and the Oilers had the exact same roster, whatever team Gretzky was on, almost guaranteed would have become the dominant one, because he was light years ahead of everyone else talent wise.
Gretzky would be dominant, but not 215 points or 92 goals dominant in my opinion.
 

Mulletman

Registered User
Feb 23, 2013
3,974
3,716
Yep. People point to Bossy's gpg which was amazing but it pretty much covers his prime. I'm pretty sure Gretzky had a better gpg over that same span.

Had he played as long as Gretzky did we would have seen a much lower gpg for Bossy.


EDIT: Just saw that Plural posted Gretzky's gpg over his first 10 seasons. :thumbu:
Yeah but Gretzky's decline as a goal scorer especially after turning 30 was greater than any other top goal scorer ever. Grezky only scored 188 goals after turning 30.

Without the career ending injury Bossy would've been in a fantastic position to score more goals than Gretzky overall. Bossy just turned 30 in January 1987, the same season he retired. Bossy would've had a golden opportunity to play all the way until 1996-97 in a high scoring League and then retire just as the dead puck era kicked in.

Sure Trottier was on the decline as well, but the Islanders had Pat Lafontaine on the way up and I'm pretty sure Bossy would've put up some nice numbers with him for another few years. And once the 90s rolled around Bossy would probably jump ship and join the Penguins or the Flyers and keep on scoring! No reason to think Bossy wouldn't have been able to crack 900 goals without the career ending injury...
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,110
15,572
Tokyo, Japan
The Oilers' cup win in 1990 was highly unexpected, but immensely satisfying.

However, after the Gretzky trade, Edmonton went 29 years before having another .600 season.

His first year in L.A., the team went from 4th worst to 4th best overnight, and eliminated Edmonton in the playoffs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hippasus and Oddbob

Sam Spade

Registered User
May 4, 2009
27,484
16,207
Maryland
To be honest Mario Lemieux is the best goal scorer in history. He doesn’t get that title tho because he doesn’t have the raw totals. No doubt in my mind if he ya Gretzky like health he scores 1000 goals. But he didn’t. I hear ya tho Ovechkin obviously has a very strong case but I just think he needs to hit 802 for the majority of historians to agree

Except even in years he did play a full season (or his version of one) he didn't beat Gretzky's numbers, ever. He came close and probably finishes number two all time, but Gretzky was and is still the best.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,764
10,302
Gretzky would be dominant, but not 215 points or 92 goals dominant in my opinion.

How do you know that though! Kurri would probably have scored 400-450 without Gretzky, but mainly because of him he scored what was it 700+. Gretzky would have just elevated some of the other good players in the league at that time, instead of Kurri. Also, Wayne had 4 200 PT seasons, so his 215 wasn't some one off situation.

Also want to add, this is not running down Ovechkin, who has put up amazing numbers in a lower scoring era, and is definitely Top 5 in goal scoring in league history.
 

Refuse

Sin City Soldiers
Aug 23, 2005
2,421
1,070
The Oilers' cup win in 1990 was highly unexpected, but immensely satisfying.

However, after the Gretzky trade, Edmonton went 29 years before having another .600 season.

His first year in L.A., the team went from 4th worst to 4th best overnight, and eliminated Edmonton in the playoffs.
Yes, all true. But returning to the subject, goals, after the first season in LA, Gretzky never scored more than 41 goals. And this was at age 28+.
 

Paper

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
4,556
2,091
To be honest Mario Lemieux is the best goal scorer in history. He doesn’t get that title tho because he doesn’t have the raw totals. No doubt in my mind if he ya Gretzky like health he scores 1000 goals.
There's nothing to support this assertion.

In his first five years in the league Gretzky had 356 goals. Lemieux had 300. This was before his biggest ailments, and included Lemieux's best seasons.

Argue the eras they played in, the teams they played for, their linemates, sure, but there's no arguing that Lemieux would have passed Gretzky if he stayed healthy. Gretzky was always significantly ahead of them in raw numbers throughout their careers.
 

Refuse

Sin City Soldiers
Aug 23, 2005
2,421
1,070
How do you know that though! Kurri would probably have scored 400-450 without Gretzky, but mainly because of him he scored what was it 700+. Gretzky would have just elevated some of the other good players in the league at that time, instead of Kurri. Also, Wayne had 4 200 PT seasons, so his 215 wasn't some one off situation.

Also want to add, this is not running down Ovechkin, who has put up amazing numbers in a lower scoring era, and is definitely Top 5 in goal scoring in league history.
All good points. I'm just guessing if Gretzky would have been put on the Rockies it might not have turned out the same way. It's just an opinion and a guess. My main point though, is the goal scorer part. In his prime, Gretzky was deferring to another player on his line, Kurri to shoot the puck. There's no debate Gretzky has the most goals scored total, what I'm debating is that it automatically doesn't make him the greatest goal scorer (as in main description of a player). The best overall ever, surely.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,764
10,302
There's nothing to support this assertion.

In his first five years in the league Gretzky had 356 goals. Lemieux had 300. This was before his biggest ailments, and included Lemieux's best seasons.

Argue the eras they played in, the teams they played for, their line mates, sure, but there's no arguing that Lemieux would have passed Gretzky if he stayed healthy. Gretzky was always significantly ahead of them in raw numbers throughout their careers.

I agree with this, I do think however that Lemieux would have beat Gretzky in goals, but wouldn't have come close or too close in assists and points however, as Mario was the better pure shooter.
 

Paper

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
4,556
2,091
The same could be said of bossy.
And it would also be wrong.

Again in their first five seasons Gretzky had 356 goals in 393 games. Bossy had 305 in 387. They started two years apart, and although Bossy started before Gretzky, there was never a time in Bossy's career that he had a better goal scoring percentage at the same time as Gretzky.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,764
10,302
All good points. I'm just guessing if Gretzky would have been put on the Rockies it might not have turned out the same way. It's just an opinion and a guess. My main point though, is the goal scorer part. In his prime, Gretzky was deferring to another player on his line, Kurri to shoot the puck. There's no debate Gretzky has the most goals scored total, what I'm debating is that it automatically doesn't make him the greatest goal scorer (as in main description of a player). The best overall ever, surely.

Yeah if your debating on pure shooting skill I agree, he wasn't the best from that stand point, I think Lemieux and Bossy were better shooters, but you also can't be a slouch if you hit nearly 900 goals in less than 1500 GP. Gretzky was also dealing with a back issue in the later part of his career, which is why he stopped shooting as much and scoring less. That and I think he just loved passing the puck to others.
 

BallardEra

Leafs&Caps Since 1982™
Dec 26, 2017
7,157
11,310
East York, Ontario
Yeah but Gretzky's decline as a goal scorer especially after turning 30 was greater than any other top goal scorer ever. Grezky only scored 188 goals after turning 30.

Without the career ending injury Bossy would've been in a fantastic position to score more goals than Gretzky overall. Bossy just turned 30 in January 1987, the same season he retired. Bossy would've had a golden opportunity to play all the way until 1996-97 in a high scoring League and then retire just as the dead puck era kicked in.

Sure Trottier was on the decline as well, but the Islanders had Pat Lafontaine on the way up and I'm pretty sure Bossy would've put up some nice numbers with him for another few years. And once the 90s rolled around Bossy would probably jump ship and join the Penguins or the Flyers and keep on scoring! No reason to think Bossy wouldn't have been able to crack 900 goals without the career ending injury...

Gretzky was never the same player after that Gary Suter hit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sam Spade

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,764
10,302
Sorry can't resist. It's also one cup more than Gretzky got after being traded. :sarcasm:

Touche! Gretzky also wasn't as dominant by the time the Kings made the Finals in '93 and they really weren't that great of a team.
 

Peggy

Registered User
Aug 6, 2016
5,274
1,307
They won 4 with him and 1 without him, that is why I said just one!

In comparison to their success before, but winning a cup isn't JUST winning s cup

The point is they won without gretzhky
Even tho you said they won because of him. Well clearly not lol
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->