Will Nolan Patrick Have a Breakout Season?

[Rebels57]

I would have so much less confidence going into this season had we not signed Hayes. We know we are going to get 50+ point play and very good defense and likely 75 games out of him. Who the hell knows what Patrick is going to do. This is a massive season for him as far as being able to predict what he will do for us going forward.

Couturier - Hayes - Patrick - Laughton

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Couturier - Patrick - Laughton - Whoever

 

[Jtown]

You have no idea what my mindset is or is not. I've been frustrated by about 4 billion decisions this team has made over the last decade, including a huge chunk of Hextall's body of work. It's not a binary. Even in this little mini-debate between you, me, @Jtown, & @Striiker, there are 4 distinct yet overlapping viewpoints going on here. I'm all for adding guys who legitimately help us win a Stanley Cup. I'm just not here for adding guys to give us the illusion of helping us win a Stanley Cup. Meanwhile, you would have us give up on being patient when it makes sense to be patient just because we have to do something to be relevant, completely blinded to the possibility that all you are really advocating for is another decade of irrelevance.

Details matter. You do things that move the needle and make sense. You don't just act for action's sake. That's how you end up signing MacDonald for 5 X 5 because he's better than what you have at the time.

I hate to be that guy but it was 5 million over 6 years. Do you know how I know that? It's because I am still haunted by that contract.

 

[Jtown]

Well, I notice that Toronto added JT and ended up with 5 less points and another 1st rd exit.
Maybe it's more important to add good fits than "stars."

Let's see, we added a two way center with a higher career shooting % than any of our forwards who can help on the PK.
Is that a good fit?

the 3 best teams last year were Toronto, bruins, and Tampa. it's not Toronto's fault that they have the misfortune of being in the division with 2 other elite teams. THis playoff system is also doing them no favors.

 

[Random Forest]

You have no idea what my mindset is or is not. I've been frustrated by about 4 billion decisions this team has made over the last decade, including a huge chunk of Hextall's body of work. It's not a binary. Even in this little mini-debate between you, me, @Jtown, & @Striiker, there are 4 distinct yet overlapping viewpoints going on here. I'm all for adding guys who legitimately help us win a Stanley Cup. I'm just not here for adding guys to give us the illusion of helping us win a Stanley Cup. Meanwhile, you would have us give up on being patient when it makes sense to be patient just because we have to do something to be relevant, completely blinded to the possibility that all you are really advocating for is another decade of irrelevance.

Details matter. You do things that move the needle and make sense. You don't just act for action's sake. That's how you end up signing MacDonald for 5 X 5 because he's better than what you have at the time.

What does signing Kevin Hayes have to do with signing MacDonald to 5x5? Nobody wanted to sign MacDonald. MacDonald is a bad player. Hayes is a good one.

“Patience” is cool and all, but sometimes the pieces you have don’t all materialize like you expected, and you need to be a little bit proactive. Yes, we understand that the Holmgren mentality (acquire everything and mortgage the future) doesn’t work long term. Nobody is advocating that. Signing Kevin Hayes is not that.

“Be patient!” is a good mantra, but it’s an utterly meaningless platitude when it comes five years after Hextall made his first draft pick for the Flyers. And eight years after we traded Richards and Carter to make room for a new core.

We have been patient, and more importantly, *we continue to be patient* while we wait for Patrick, Provorov, Konecny, Sanheim, etc etc. to take their next steps in development. But being patient is not mutually exclusive from adding core pieces that make the lineup competitive.

The idea that these two things are mutually exclusive is just an artifact of the derangement Flyers fans developed after Holmgren. Lots of fans are so battered by that experience that anything remotely considered “win now” is anathema to them. There’s an enormous gulf between the disastrous impatience of Paul Holmgren and having a paralyzing fear of ever making moves out of some misguided vision of “patience”.

 

[Random Forest]

I would have so much less confidence going into this season had we not signed Hayes. We know we are going to get 50+ point play and very good defense and likely 75 games out of him. Who the hell knows what Patrick is going to do. This is a massive season for him as far as being able to predict what he will do for us going forward.

Couturier - Hayes - Patrick - Laughton

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Couturier - Patrick - Laughton - Whoever

Yeah, but:

Couturier, PATIENCE, Patrick, Laughton

>>>>>>>>>>

Couturier, Hayes, Patrick, Laughton

Patience is an elite 2C.

 

[Starat327]

I wish I lived in a world where Kevin Hayes was an elite 2C, too. Sounds like a nice place. Much better than reality, at least.

 

[Random Forest]

I wish I lived in a world where Kevin Hayes was an elite 2C, too. Sounds like a nice place. Much better than reality, at least.

Who lives in that world?

 

[Rebels57]

What does signing Kevin Hayes have to do with signing MacDonald to 5x5? Nobody wanted to sign MacDonald. MacDonald is a bad player. Hayes is a good one.

“Patience” is cool and all, but sometimes the pieces you have don’t all materialize like you expected, and you need to be a little bit proactive. Yes, we understand that the Holmgren mentality (acquire everything and mortgage the future) doesn’t work long term. Nobody is advocating that. Signing Kevin Hayes is not that.

“Be patient!” is a good mantra, but it’s an utterly meaningless platitude when it comes five years after Hextall made his first draft pick for the Flyers. And eight years after we traded Richards and Carter to make room for a new core.

We have been patient, and more importantly, *we continue to be patient* while we wait for Patrick, Provorov, Konecny, Sanheim, etc etc. to take their next steps in development. But being patient is not mutually exclusive from adding core pieces that make the lineup competitive.

The idea that these two things are mutually exclusive is just an artifact of the derangement Flyers fans developed after Holmgren. Lots of fans are so battered by that experience that anything remotely considered “win now” is anathema to them. There’s an enormous gulf between the disastrous impatience of Paul Holmgren and having a paralyzing fear of ever making moves out of some misguided vision of “patience”.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I don't really have a problem with signing Hayes, but people talk like that was the only way to improve the team, because he's a center. There's nothing stopping you from loading up on the wings and being a little weak (inexperienced) down the middle and reaching the same net impact.

 

[Striiker]

None players.

40-45 points is the most you can realistically ask for.

Yeah, which I think is doable but would be tough.

Although we might need to start talking about P/PG instead of point totals depending on how long this injury lasts. So basically aiming for 0.50 P/PG.

 

[Rebels57]

Yeah, which I think is doable but would be tough.

Although we might need to start talking about P/PG instead of point totals depending on how long this injury lasts. So basically aiming for 0.50 P/PG.

Yeah .50 would be nice.

Not missing the start of the season would also be nice. I really really really want to know how the hell he got hurt. Was he wrestling over a PS4 controller with TK?

 

[Striiker]

I would have so much less confidence going into this season had we not signed Hayes. We know we are going to get 50+ point play and very good defense and likely 75 games out of him. Who the hell knows what Patrick is going to do. This is a massive season for him as far as being able to predict what he will do for us going forward.

Couturier - Hayes - Patrick - Laughton

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Couturier - Patrick - Laughton - Whoever

We actually don’t KNOW that since he’s only done that once in his career.

 

[Jtown]

I wish I lived in a world where Kevin Hayes was an elite 2C, too. Sounds like a nice place. Much better than reality, at least.

It's a beautiful world. My next door neighbor is Markelle Fultz's jumpshot.

 

[Rebels57]

We actually don’t KNOW that since he’s only done that once in his career.

Not going down this road again. It's the same as when people complained about Couturier not scoring 40 points in injury shortened seasons. Since getting top 6 minutes, he paced for over 50 in 16-17, a smidge under 50 in 17-18, and over 60 in 18-19.

 

[Striiker]

Not going down this road again. It's the same as when people complained about Couturier not scoring 40 points in injury shortened seasons. Since getting top 6 minutes, he paced for over 50 in 16-17, a smidge under 50 in 17-18, and over 60 in 18-19.

Well with Couts it was people saying he had the ability to score 40 vs the people said he didn't have the ability.

Here we know Hayes has the ability to score 50+, but we don't know for sure if he actually will.

 

[Striiker]

What does signing Kevin Hayes have to do with signing MacDonald to 5x5? Nobody wanted to sign MacDonald. MacDonald is a bad player. Hayes is a good one.

“Patience” is cool and all, but sometimes the pieces you have don’t all materialize like you expected, and you need to be a little bit proactive. Yes, we understand that the Holmgren mentality (acquire everything and mortgage the future) doesn’t work long term. Nobody is advocating that. Signing Kevin Hayes is not that.

“Be patient!” is a good mantra, but it’s an utterly meaningless platitude when it comes five years after Hextall made his first draft pick for the Flyers. And eight years after we traded Richards and Carter to make room for a new core.

We have been patient, and more importantly, *we continue to be patient* while we wait for Patrick, Provorov, Konecny, Sanheim, etc etc. to take their next steps in development. But being patient is not mutually exclusive from adding core pieces that make the lineup competitive.

The idea that these two things are mutually exclusive is just an artifact of the derangement Flyers fans developed after Holmgren. Lots of fans are so battered by that experience that anything remotely considered “win now” is anathema to them. There’s an enormous gulf between the disastrous impatience of Paul Holmgren and having a paralyzing fear of ever making moves out of some misguided vision of “patience”.

Surely you must also realize that the people preaching patience and not in love with the Hayes signing or the other signings also aren't saying that NO additions could be made. Like you said, it's not mutually exclusive and that goes both ways.

You can dislike these specific offseason additions, think more patience is needed, AND believe that there could have been other ways to go about improving the roster.

And sure, maybe not all the young guys pan out, but we're invested in them and ultimately they're going to be what will decided if we see success or not, so it's not unreasonable to be wary of a roster move that has a chance (even if it's slim) of holding them back.

 

[04hockey]

"patty" has to decide if he wants to play or he doesn't.....I hope he isn't the NHL version of fultzie

 

[Striiker]

You can't just decide to not be injured...

 

[Random Forest]

Surely you must also realize that the people preaching patience and not in love with the Hayes signing or the other signings also aren't saying that NO additions could be made. Like you said, it's not mutually exclusive and that goes both ways.

You can dislike these specific offseason additions, think more patience is needed, AND believe that there could have been other ways to go about improving the roster.

And sure, maybe not all the young guys pan out, but we're invested in them and ultimately they're going to be what will decided if we see success or not, so it's not unreasonable to be wary of a roster move that has a chance (even if it's slim) of holding them back.

Okay, but the obvious implication of the “be patient” admonishment is that signing Hayes was impatient. Given that Patrick has mostly sucked throughout his career and is now injured again, it’s just crazy to think the Hayes signing is anything other than a pragmatic safety option for the 2C spot. That’s not being impatient. It’s filling a gaping void on this roster with the best available option.

You can critique the contract value, fine, but it’s just hysterical how often Flyers fans blather on about patience, as if this franchise hasn’t shown an immense amount of patience already. What were these supposed other options, aside from just hoping that one of the young players rises to the challenge? That’s not being “patient”, that’s just being paralyzed by an overzealous instinct toward inaction. And if Patrick or Frost makes the jump to 2C next season, then it’s all the better! There’s just no reality in which the current Flyers are exhibiting anything other than patience.

 

[hatcher]

Fletcher told me Patrick is made of cheap glass so I gotta sign Hayes big Hatch.

 

[Jtown]

Fletcher told me Patrick is made of cheap glass so I gotta sign Hayes big Hatch.

Bro , I was there and he did not say that. He said "When patrick and I smoke this glass we see signs through the haze"

 

[flyersjim73]

"patty" has to decide if he wants to play or he doesn't.....I hope he isn't the NHL version of fultzie

This sure is a terrible post.

 

[Striiker]

Okay, but the obvious implication of the “be patient” admonishment is that signing Hayes was impatient. Given that Patrick has mostly sucked throughout his career and is now injured again, it’s just crazy to think the Hayes signing is anything other than a pragmatic safety option for the 2C spot. That’s not being impatient. It’s filling a gaping void on this roster with the best available option.

You can critique the contract value, fine, but it’s just hysterical how often Flyers fans blather on about patience, as if this franchise hasn’t shown an immense amount of patience already. What were these supposed other options, aside from just hoping that one of the young players rises to the challenge? And if Patrick or Frost makes the jump to 2C next season, then it’s all the better. There’s just no reality in which the current Flyers are exhibiting anything other than patience.

Well keep in mind that 99% of the time when people on here talk about patience it's when they're arguing what they want to happen with another fan on this board. So often that other person is being impatient and their praise/support for the Hayes deal comes from that impatience. Of course not everyone who likes that signing is coming from an impatient viewpoint, but many of them are. Like the type of people on here who were just desperate for change for the sake of change and suggested some awful trade ideas... and there were plenty.

Some liked the signing because it adds middle six depth, regardless of how Patrick performs. (which is perfectly acceptable)
Others liked the signing because they said we MUST get a 2C at any cost, because they lost faith that Patrick can become a 2C or more. (which is an example of impatience and a mistake)

And again, you talk about the franchises patience but that's not what's being discussed 99% of the time. I talk about patience a lot, but it's almost always due to telling people they have to relax and be patient when they're freaking out over the initial performances of players like TK, Sanheim, Lindblom, and some others.... going all the way back to when we were telling people they needed to be patient with Couturier. People got so impatient that trade proposals started flying around for all these players. And look what happened, those players significantly improved, as the people preaching patience said they would.

 

[mja]

What does signing Kevin Hayes have to do with signing MacDonald to 5x5? Nobody wanted to sign MacDonald. MacDonald is a bad player. Hayes is a good one.

“Patience” is cool and all, but sometimes the pieces you have don’t all materialize like you expected, and you need to be a little bit proactive. Yes, we understand that the Holmgren mentality (acquire everything and mortgage the future) doesn’t work long term. Nobody is advocating that. Signing Kevin Hayes is not that.

“Be patient!” is a good mantra, but it’s an utterly meaningless platitude when it comes five years after Hextall made his first draft pick for the Flyers. And eight years after we traded Richards and Carter to make room for a new core.

We have been patient, and more importantly, *we continue to be patient* while we wait for Patrick, Provorov, Konecny, Sanheim, etc etc. to take their next steps in development. But being patient is not mutually exclusive from adding core pieces that make the lineup competitive.

The idea that these two things are mutually exclusive is just an artifact of the derangement Flyers fans developed after Holmgren. Lots of fans are so battered by that experience that anything remotely considered “win now” is anathema to them. There’s an enormous gulf between the disastrous impatience of Paul Holmgren and having a paralyzing fear of ever making moves out of some misguided vision of “patience”.

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm not advocating for patience as a general strategy, I'm advocating for patience as a targeted strategy when it makes sense to do so, like with our 20 year old 2OV center. But I'd be just as much in favor with packaging Patrick in a trade if it brought back a legitimate top center. I'm all in favor of making moves that move the needle, and when those aren't available, being patient and letting our young talent go through growing pains. You think Hayes moves the needle, while I have my doubts. Throw in the contract and my doubts become concerns.

And yes, people ABSOLUTELY defended the MacDonald signing at the time using the same arguments being used to defend the Hayes move now, if somewhat less enthusiastically.

 

[deadhead]

We KNOW who signed and moved last offseason, so it's not a matter of hypotheticals.
Duchesne was not coming here, neither was Panarin.

Lee (29) - 6x7
Pavelski (35) - 3x7
Zuccarello (32) - 5x6
Nyquist (30) - 4x5.5
Ferland (27) - 4x3.5
Dzingel (27) - 2x3.38
Johannson (29) - 2x4.5
Connolly (27) - 4x3.3
Donskoi (27) - 4x3.9

That's your menu.