Will Hard Cap Break up Winning teams?

[Hockey_Nut99]

I don't deny that Edmonton has drafted poorly (until recently). It pretty much sucked. I remember yelling at my tv when they made that bonehead move and picked that loser Steve Kelly. All I'm saying is that in a new era, they wouldn't be hurt by the economics so much. If the last CBA wasn't so inflated, then people wouldn't always talk about the "money excuse".

It's a 2 tier league right now. Big teams already have a big advantage in the regular season (where they are 99% guaranteed a playoff spot). On top of that, they can "rent" bigtime players if they choose to do so, giving them a bigger advantage in the playoffs. Most of the smaller teams can maybe call someone up. I don't know. People who say that the league is good and every team is on the same level playing field, are either fans of a "big club" or have PA goggles on.

 

[Chayos]

Then Edmonton had better start to draft better. They have always used the money excuse, wonder what excuse it will be now. The fact is that they draft terrible.

Need an example:

1995 Edmonton has the 6th draft pick. Shane Doan is still out there and who does Edmonton draft? Steve Kelly. Who? He's spent most of his career bouncing from team to team while Shane is now the captain of the Phoenix Coyotes and as we all know scored the winning goal in the World Cup.

Some of those "rich" teams will be just fine, but it won't be just the "rich" teams that will be in that scenario, it will be everyone. Two of the best drafting teams are the NJ Devils and Colorado Avalanche, who also have excellent development. Detroit is also a good drafting team.

The oil has a new draft team since low took over and have been very solid since as their HF prospects status shows. Lets be frank here every team has a 1st round pick they would like to redo in thier past so why bring up that one.

The one thing the oil is really good at and has been for over 10 years is identifying players on other team who are going to be good nhl players and trading for them. EG: Brewer, York , Torres, Smith, Guerin, Weight, and marchant.

The system propsosed by the NHL wouldn't give the oil the licence to spend but it would make the the money they are spending more in line with wha the rest of the league is spending.

people think salaries will suddenly stop growing with this deal i dare to say they won't stop growing, but they will just be smaller jumps than they have at to this point. With a whole generation of big money players set to retire this is the ideal time to get salaries under control before the next generation get use to the big money. The players of the future like Thornton, Vinny, Kovalchuk and healtly won't be making 10 mil they will be making 6 mill. Teams like the wings , ranger leafs and stars will have to develop their own talent to be competetive for the long haul.

The teams who are set to excel in the NEW nhl environment are NJ, Tampa bay, Florida, Ott Edm, and washington.

These teams have been building their teams through the draft for years now and they are set up to continue doing this.

 

[Guy Caballero]

Karyia did it to play on a good team but he didnt fool anybody when we noticed that it was to be unrestricted at the end of the year. The point asnt about this topic though is just wanted to explain why the Patriots were able win all these champisonships.

That worked out well for him, didn't it?

 

[Sotnos]

Correct, I was too lazy to add up the rollback

But my point was just that teams would have to learn to say "Thanks for the productive years, but we're headed in a different direction" in choosing which players to resign. Ie, the Lightning would probably have to see Khabibulin go elsewhere........although that's probably the direction they would have gone regardless of the cap.

But as missK pointed out, if you're putting the rollback in there the payroll is down to $15mil for the players mentioned, thus leaving a lot of room to work with before they get to a cap.

 

[AM]

Easy

I am sorry if this was already covered.

I read alot from posters who are against a Hard cap.

Saying that a hard cap will make it impossible for a winning team to be able to keep there roster together.

I was wondering if someone who supported that stance would explain to me in detail why a winning team under a hard cap will not be able to stay together? If you are against the stance that a hard cap breaks up winning teams can you in turn explain how a winning team can stay together under a hard cap?

I have thought this out myself but feel as though I may be missing a couple serious components.

Teams can stay together by the players choosing to take less money to keep the team together.

 

[wazee]

It'll break up expensive teams, but as we've seen in the last 5 years, just because you spend a lot of money doesn't mean you're going to successful.

2000: Devils - I count 10 out of the 23 regulars are still around
2001: Avalanche - 8 are still on Colorado
2002: Red Wings - 13 still on the team today
2003: Devils - 14 still on the roster today

I think there was already a tremendous amount of roster turnover going on anyways. If anything, teams will just have to be smarter about which impending free agents they keep around.

That sounds about right for the Avs. And, IIRR, there were only 5 players who lifted the Cup in 1996 who were still there to lift in in 2001. There were lots of reasons...Hockey player's careers are short, The Avs had to trade away a lot of their mid-range players for draft picks because hit they took when the Rangers signed Sakic to an offer sheet. So...turnover happened under the old CBA anyway.

From a fan standpoint, I have always thought the ideal cap would allow a team to 'bank' money on the years they were under the cap, and be allowed to go over the cap by the same amount in other years. This would fit the natural cycle of low salaries for a rebuilding team and would allow the team to be kept together for a few years after they reached their prime. There would have to be strict regulations on how much you could 'bank', how much you could withdraw (go over the cap) in a year, and how many years a team could store up money without withdrawing some.

Just a thought...

 

[Icey]

The oil has a new draft team since low took over and have been very solid since as their HF prospects status shows. Lets be frank here every team has a 1st round pick they would like to redo in thier past so why bring up that one.

It was the first one I thought of off the top of my head.

The one thing the oil is really good at and has been for over 10 years is identifying players on other team who are going to be good nhl players and trading for them. EG: Brewer, York , Torres, Smith, Guerin, Weight, and marchant.

The system propsosed by the NHL wouldn't give the oil the licence to spend but it would make the the money they are spending more in line with wha the rest of the league is spending.

And where are Guerin, Marchant and Weight today??? You can hardly use the big market team excuse when talking about Marchant. Columbus is a small market team with small pockets just like the Oilers (just look at their payroll), but they got Marchant to walk away, you need to ask yourself why, its more than just money.

people think salaries will suddenly stop growing with this deal i dare to say they won't stop growing, but they will just be smaller jumps than they have at to this point. With a whole generation of big money players set to retire this is the ideal time to get salaries under control before the next generation get use to the big money. The players of the future like Thornton, Vinny, Kovalchuk and healtly won't be making 10 mil they will be making 6 mill. Teams like the wings , ranger leafs and stars will have to develop their own talent to be competetive for the long haul.

Joe Thorton already makes more than $6M and he's only 25.

The Stars have already taken steps in developing their own talent when they bought an AHL team this past fall, so they could better monitor their prospects development. They will be able to bring the kids over from Europe sooner than they have in the past. They no longer will have to relie on someone elses staff to develop their youth, they will be doing it themselves.

Starting next season the Stars will develop their youth in Des Moines, Iowa with the Iowa Stars.

The teams who are set to excel in the NEW nhl environment are NJ, Tampa bay, Florida, Ott Edm, and washington.


These teams have been building their teams through the draft for years now and they are set up to continue doing this.

Washington??? Your kidding right? But I certainly would add San Jose in that group. They have always had a top notch development team and it shows with the team they put on the ice and their AHL team.

 

[me2]

It'll break up expensive teams, but as we've seen in the last 5 years, just because you spend a lot of money doesn't mean you're going to successful.

2000: Devils - I count 10 out of the 23 regulars are still around
2001: Avalanche - 8 are still on Colorado
2002: Red Wings - 13 still on the team today
2003: Devils - 14 still on the roster today

I think there was already a tremendous amount of roster turnover going on anyways. If anything, teams will just have to be smarter about which impending free agents they keep around.

Lou will absolutely rock under a hard cap.

 

[me2]

I don't deny that Edmonton has drafted poorly (until recently). It pretty much sucked. I remember yelling at my tv when they made that bonehead move and picked that loser Steve Kelly. All I'm saying is that in a new era, they wouldn't be hurt by the economics so much. If the last CBA wasn't so inflated, then people wouldn't always talk about the "money excuse".

It's a 2 tier league right now. Big teams already have a big advantage in the regular season (where they are 99% guaranteed a playoff spot). On top of that, they can "rent" bigtime players if they choose to do so, giving them a bigger advantage in the playoffs. Most of the smaller teams can maybe call someone up. I don't know. People who say that the league is good and every team is on the same level playing field, are either fans of a "big club" or have PA goggles on.

Under a cap you sail your own ship and the wind is the same for everyone. If Edmonton suck under a cap then its their own fault. No outside influences to blame.

 

[me2]

I was thinking that maybe the opposite would happen. Instead of teh Wings replaceing a very good checking line they would instead lose 1 or 2 super stars and field a more lineup with role players incudeing a sprinkling of super stars.

Example:
Instead of this expensive lineup

Zetterberg/Lang/Yzerman
Shannahan/Datsyuk/Hull
Maltby/Draper/McCarty
Whytney/Deveroux/Holmstrom

Lidstrom/Hatcher
Fischer/Dandenault
Schnieder/Chelios

Hasek/Joseph

They would be forced to go with this lineup:

Zetterberg/Lang/Yzerman
Holmstrom/Datsyuk/Grigorenko or McCarty
Maltby/Draper/McCarty or Williams
Kopecky/Mowers/Bootland Or Williams

Lidstrom/Fischer
Dandenault/Kranwall
Woolley/...........

Joseph/Legacy

Yes the second lineup isn't as much of a power house as the 1st one. I am not sure if the Wings woudl be able to afford to get another 3rd or 4th defenseman as well to plug the hole on defense. Or if they could fit Hatcher or Schnieder in there budget, they may only be able to afford the one. Why even consider keeping Chelios at the salary he would be demanding. Anywhich way you look at it that lineup is still a very good lineup that should get the Wings into the playoffs and contend for the cup.

The second lineup is just an example of what they could do to ice a team under the cap withouth tearing it apart completely.Though I think my second lineup is pretty close to the $40mil mark. Thats not to bad imo.

The thing that often gets overlooked is the effect that will have on lesser clubs. With the big spenders monopolising the best UFAs it damages the lesser teams perhaps even more than it helps the better teams. Adding Lucky Luc to a stacked Wings team didn't improve them much, while adding Lucky Luc to LA made them a much better team. LA are 10% better with Luc and the wings were 1 or 2% better.


Players like Shanahan, Hull, Chelios, Hatcher and Schnieder are now released onto the UFA market and a lesser team can take a run at them and plug a big hole.

Take the Nucks for example (it could be a SJ, Ottawa, Tampa or one of the other playoff clubs with lower budgets). The Nucks could really use Schneider, he'd be great to round out the Nucks top 4. With the Wings, TO, Philly etc not in the bidding the Nucks have a chance. The Nucks get much better if they can replace Sopel or Malik on the top pairings. This improvement in the competition is more of a threat to the Wings than the drop off from losing Schneider.