Will Auston Matthews break Rick Vaive's record this season?

Will Auston Matthews break Rick Vaive's record this season?


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    219

Thenameless

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
3,854
1,788
Do you understand the difference between theory and practice? Of course they have Richards, I said it was likely, it is also theoretically possible to do it without winning any.

You do realize that there is also the idea of "practically impossible". While it is theoretically possible that a future greatest goal scorer of all time never wins a season goal scoring title, it would also be highly, highly, highly unlikely to happen - as in practically impossible.

Just think of the theoretical things that would have to happen.

1. This player automatically loses an all-time peak comparison, because he can't even claim one Richard trophy, whereas other greats have several. It implies that he does not have the single best goal scoring season.
2. This player would have to be beaten by different players every season of his career, because if one player played in the same era and won multiple Rockets, then he would be considered better at goal scoring.
3. In order to make a valid excuse for not winning a Rocket, this player would have to suffer a minor injury every season (say missing around 5-10 games at most), and then lose the goal title every time by just one or two goals.
4. This player would then have to have the unquestionably greatest playoff goal scoring resume of all time; easily exceeding those of players like Rocket Richard, Jari Kurri, Mike Bossy, and Wayne Gretzky. This is needed to make up for the weak regular season resume.
5. Longevity would be a must for this player, since his peak is so weak. So what are we talking here? 20 seasons of averaging almost 50 goals per season? Again, with different players somehow beating him every season.
6. This goes with point number 5. And how likely is a guy that gets injured every season to play 20 seasons of out-of-this-world goal scoring hockey? Would he not likely slow down from all those injuries?
 
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BlueBaron

Registered User
May 29, 2006
15,669
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Sarnia, On
You do realize that there is also the idea of "practically impossible". While it is theoretically possible that a future greatest goal scorer of all time never wins a season goal scoring title, it would also be highly, highly, highly unlikely to happen - as in practically impossible.

Just think of the theoretical things that would have to happen.

1. This player automatically loses an all-time peak comparison, because he can't even claim one Richard trophy, whereas other greats have several. It implies that he does not have the single best goal scoring season.
2. This player would have to be beaten by different players every season of his career, because if one player played in the same era and won multiple Rockets, then he would be considered better at goal scoring.
3. In order to make a valid excuse for not winning a Rocket, this player would have to suffer a minor injury every season (say missing around 5-10 games at most), and then lose the goal title every time by just one or two goals.
4. This player would then have to have the unquestionably greatest playoff goal scoring resume of all time; easily exceeding those of players like Rocket Richard, Jari Kurri, Mike Bossy, and Wayne Gretzky. This is needed to make up for the weak regular season resume.
5. Longevity would be a must for this player, since his peak is so weak. So what are we talking here? 20 seasons of averaging almost 50 goals per season? Again, with different players somehow beating him every season.
6. This goes with point number 5. And how likely is a guy that gets injured every season to play 20 seasons of out-of-this-world goal scoring hockey? Would he not likely slow down from all those injuries?
I do realize it. It was an outlandish statement being taken far too seriously by posters desperately seeking a win.
 

BlueBaron

Registered User
May 29, 2006
15,669
6,302
Sarnia, On
I don’t understand why people would click on the title if you don’t know who the guy in the title is. Maybe just nothing better to do?

You have not noticed numerous fans obsessed with bringing down Matthews who have to be involved in his threads? I'm sure if you scroll back some guy posted "Matthews sucks" and got 10 likes for it (sarcasm).

HF can't complain about Toronto getting too much attention unless they give us too much attention :P
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
21,936
Vancouver, BC
You do realize that there is also the idea of "practically impossible". While it is theoretically possible that a future greatest goal scorer of all time never wins a season goal scoring title, it would also be highly, highly, highly unlikely to happen - as in practically impossible.

Just think of the theoretical things that would have to happen.

1. This player automatically loses an all-time peak comparison, because he can't even claim one Richard trophy, whereas other greats have several. It implies that he does not have the single best goal scoring season.
2. This player would have to be beaten by different players every season of his career, because if one player played in the same era and won multiple Rockets, then he would be considered better at goal scoring.
3. In order to make a valid excuse for not winning a Rocket, this player would have to suffer a minor injury every season (say missing around 5-10 games at most), and then lose the goal title every time by just one or two goals.
4. This player would then have to have the unquestionably greatest playoff goal scoring resume of all time; easily exceeding those of players like Rocket Richard, Jari Kurri, Mike Bossy, and Wayne Gretzky. This is needed to make up for the weak regular season resume.
5. Longevity would be a must for this player, since his peak is so weak. So what are we talking here? 20 seasons of averaging almost 50 goals per season? Again, with different players somehow beating him every season.
6. This goes with point number 5. And how likely is a guy that gets injured every season to play 20 seasons of out-of-this-world goal scoring hockey? Would he not likely slow down from all those injuries?
Yeah agreed. It is so unlikely that it should be ignored. I’m not sure why it was even raised except to try to prop up the player. If Matthews is generational he will win multiple Rockets. Just like every other great scorer of the past.

To me a generational player, in this case a goal scorer, needs to do two things:
1. Play at a high level for a long time and have the career totals that put him with the other greats.
And
2. Have a peak period of a number of years where he is well ahead of his contemporaries.

It’s not good enough to be a really good for a long time like a Mike Gartner when you never are the best goal scorer for a number of years.
The peak period test will always result in multiple Rockets.
 

BoredBrandonPridham

Registered User
Aug 9, 2011
7,573
4,061
That’s ok. He’ll have a trophy case of Most Goals Per 60 Minutes at Even Strength to fall back on. No one can take that away from him. ;)

yes no one can take being a generational goal scorer in the league away from him. Lots of time to go to get trophies if playing conditions change but I doubt he’s all that concerned about it.
 

Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
22,958
6,029
After doing my own legwork to confirm/ determine the actual records here, I see that:
1) Rick Vaive once scored 54 goals for the Leafs.
2) Dave Andreychuk once scored 53 goals for the Leafs.

I voted #5. I wouldn't be shocked if Matthews cleared 54. But **** happens and scorers can go hot and cold. For example: a very respectable 18 goals in the remaining 35 games would be great, but would put him short of both players.

And lol at people getting mad that Rick Vaive is not well known. I'm in my 40s. I remember seeing at least some of Rick Vaive's career when I was a kid. I remember the weird neck brace thingy he wore. Maybe it was different earlier in his career, but his profile later on while he was still in the league wasn't super-high. 30+ years later, it's totally reasonable that people won't know Vaive. Not in an era that had the dynasty Islanders, the dynasty Oilers, Mario Lemieux, Ray Bourque, Patrick Roy, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, Denis Savard, and so on. I'd put Vaive on par with someone like John Ogrodnick (a former 55 goal scorer that I suspect many people in this thread are hearing of for the first time).

While I get the point, you are again bringing up someone who did it ONCE (for the record I remember Ogrodnick well). To Vaive's credit, only 14 people have done it more times than him.
 

Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
22,958
6,029
Yes. I’ll wait for your list of players who didn’t win multiple Rockets and were amongst the greatest goal scorers of all time.

That's not even difficult.

5th all time in goals scored. Ten 40+ goal seasons. Six 50+ goal seasons. Zero goal titles.

I mean, up to you where you rank him but great player.
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
21,936
Vancouver, BC
That's not even difficult.

5th all time in goals scored. Ten 40+ goal seasons. Six 50+ goal seasons. Zero goal titles.

I mean, up to you where you rank him but great player.
Yeah. Marcel Dionne was a great and underrated player. But not a single person would call Marcel Dionne a generational goal scorer.
Thanks for playing!
 
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Rants Mulliniks

Registered User
Jun 22, 2008
22,958
6,029
Yeah agreed. It is so unlikely that it should be ignored. I’m not sure why it was even raised except to try to prop up the player. If Matthews is generational he will win multiple Rockets. Just like every other great scorer of the past.

To me a generational player, in this case a goal scorer, needs to do two things:
1. Play at a high level for a long time and have the career totals that put him with the other greats.
And
2. Have a peak period of a number of years where he is well ahead of his contemporaries.

It’s not good enough to be a really good for a long time like a Mike Gartner when you never are the best goal scorer for a number of years.
The peak period test will always result in multiple Rockets.

The difference between Gartner and Matthews is Gartner only cracked top 10 three times and top 8 once. Versus his peers Matthews has been much better. Hasn't won it yet of course.
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
21,936
Vancouver, BC
The difference between Gartner and Matthews is Gartner only cracked top 10 three times and top 8 once. Versus his peers Matthews has been much better. Hasn't won it yet of course.
Agreed. Matthews is more impactful than Gartner.
And he’s one of the top young goal scorers in the game today along with Pasta, Eichel and Drai. Too soon at this stage to say who ends up the best of this generation as that player may not even have been drafted yet.
The discussion though is about him being generational. And to get there he will need multiple Rockets just like every other generational goal scorer. Excuses about PP time and minutes per game won’t cut it.
 
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MagicalRazor

Registered User
Oct 25, 2016
1,518
591
I would say yes but supposedly he has a wrist injury , reason why he bailed at the all Star game . Maybe he didn't want to partake and he milked it but I don't know the extent of this injury I could say a troublesome wrist could slow his pace down .
 

LeafsNation75

Registered User
Jan 15, 2010
37,975
12,506
Toronto, Ontario
I would say yes but supposedly he has a wrist injury , reason why he bailed at the all Star game . Maybe he didn't want to partake and he milked it but I don't know the extent of this injury I could say a troublesome wrist could slow his pace down .
So far Matthews has been playing trough that with the Leafs and there are no plans for him to miss any other NHL games.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,518
46,235
I would say yes but supposedly he has a wrist injury , reason why he bailed at the all Star game . Maybe he didn't want to partake and he milked it but I don't know the extent of this injury I could say a troublesome wrist could slow his pace down .

Anthony Stewart tweeted a funny gif about that. The "wrist brace" magically disappears tomorrow afternoon.
 

LeafsNation75

Registered User
Jan 15, 2010
37,975
12,506
Toronto, Ontario
Even though it was into an empty net they all still count because Matthews scored his 35th goal of the season tonight. So he's now 19 goals away from tying the Leafs record and 20 goals away from setting the record for most goals in a season.
 

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