Will Auston Matthews break Rick Vaive's record this season?

[TychoFan]

I read through the whole thread, not once was the record actually stated (I apologise if it was somewhere): Rick Vaive has the record for the Toronto Maple Leafs goal scoring season with 54 goals. Fun fact: Tavares is tied for 7th in Leafs history with 47 goals last season.

I did not know who Rick Vaive was either though about the question, I do think someone from the Leafs right now (probably Matthews/Tavares) will score 55 goals with the Leafs!

 

[Juxta Position]

Jesus tap dancing christ! Learn your hockey history guys! Rick Vaive is one of only 3 players to score 50 goals with the Toronto Maple Leafs! Only 5 times has someone been able to score 50 goals with the Toronto Maple Leafs in their 100 year history and Rick Vaive was the guy to do it 3 of those 5 times! The only other players to do it was Dave Andreychuk in the early high scoring 90s and Gary Leeman. Gary Leeman was only able to do it because he had a mullet during te season he scored 51 goals.

Rick Vaive could've been one of the all time greats but he eventually cracked under the pressure from the Toronto media and fans. Legend has it he was a Mike Bossy level talent and should've had at least 7 50 goal seasons in a row. Instead he only had 3 straight 50 goal seasons during his peak. But once he left Toronto, a old broken down Rick Vaive, way past his prime, was still able to put up 43 goals playing for Chicago in 1987-88.

This is Leafs lore not hockey lore. no offense man, but Vaive is not somebody who people are gonna truely remember unless they're a Leaf diehard. I know who he is but that's only because i'm in my 40's and actually remember him playing. that being said, he was definately no stand out player considering 50 goal scorers were relatively common when Vaive played.

but to answer the question, no i don't think matthews will do it. he's way to prone to extended hot and cold streaks, he was currently on a heater before the break, but he's due for a solid month cooldown.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Me in 40 years

"whhhaaAAATT? YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE LEGENDARY ZEMGUS GIRGENSON, LEARN YOUR HOCKEY HISTORY YOU UNGRATEFUL PATHETIC WORM"

A valid statement if he finishes 15th all time in anything.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

No disrespect to Rick Vaive, but Matthews season would be more impressive.

Strangely though the Leafs have never won the goal scoring race since the 1945-1946 season even when there were only six teams. They just never had that super elite goal scorer even though they had some amazing players.

Vaive played in a more high scoring era. He was a very good player but Vaive in his record year was fifth in the NHL behind Gretzky, Bossy, Dennis Maruk and Dino Cicarelli. It will be fitting that Matthews takes over the honour as his season would be much more impressive in this era imo.

 

[lauraP]

A valid statement if he finishes 15th all time in anything.

you're talking about an allstar here bud

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

No disrespect to Rick Vaive, but Matthews season would be more impressive.

Strangely though the Leafs have never won the goal scoring race since the 1945-1946 season even when there were only six teams. They just never had that super elite goal scorer even though they had some amazing players.

Vaive played in a more high scoring era. He was a very good player but Vaive in his record year was fifth in the NHL behind Gretzky, Bossy, Dennis Maruk and Dino Cicarelli. It will be fitting that Matthews takes over the honour as his season would be much more impressive in this era imo.

This is correct on all counts and I don't think you'll hear anyone argue that Matthews is a superior player to Vaive. Matthews since entering the league is scoring at a clip that will put him among the best goal scorers in the history of the game.

 

[Thenameless]

Matthews since entering the league is scoring at a clip that will put him among the best goal scorers in the history of the game.

He'd be a tier or two down from the best goal scorers in history, but I hear where you're coming from. A great start to a goal scoring career nonetheless.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He'd be a tier or two down from the best goal scorers in history, but I hear where you're coming from. A great start to a goal scoring career nonetheless.

When you add context, he could very well finish top 5. Probably not on total goals scored but the context being era, comparison to peers, etc. He hasn't even hit his prime yet and basically has been the most productive goal scorer since entering the league, going toe to toe with the guy that will probably end up #1 or #2 (but has played thousands - if memory serves -more minutes in that frame).

 

[Thenameless]

When you add context, he could very well finish top 5. Probably not on total goals scored but the context being era, comparison to peers, etc. He hasn't even hit his prime yet and basically has been the most productive goal scorer since entering the league, going toe to toe with the guy that will probably end up #1 or #2 (but has played thousands - if memory serves -more minutes in that frame).

Finishing top 5 as an all-time goal scorer (even factoring for era context) would be a very tall order. There are some giants on that list:

1. Rocket Richard (the first 50/50 goal scorer, 82 playoff goals in 133 playoff games. I don't think Matthews is getting the trophy named after him)
2. Bobby Hull (7 goal scoring titles)
3. Guy Lafleur (six 50 goals seasons in a row, 58 playoff goals in 128 playoff games)
4. Mike Bossy (nine 50 goal seasons in a row, 85 playoff goals in 129 playoff games)
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Mario Lemieux
7. Alexander Ovechkin

I don't see Top 5 happening unless he starts winning some Rockets very soon. And scores his healthy share of playoff goals.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

This is correct on all counts and I don't think you'll hear anyone argue that Matthews is a superior player to Vaive. Matthews since entering the league is scoring at a clip that will put him among the best goal scorers in the history of the game.

Woah there!
He has a long way to go before he enters into the great goal scorers discussion. He’s no doubt off to a good start but me needs to win a Rocket or two to get in the discussion. Not many people care that much about the other stats. He’s definitely in the top three this year though. Should be a good race.

 

[KCC]

So Auston Matthews is on fire right now with 34 goals in just 47 games. That's a 59 goal pace over a full 82 game season. So he's basically easilly on pace to break Rick Vaive's record right now. But will Auston Matthews be able to pull it off, or will he slow down and fall short in the end. 55 goals is a pretty tall order after all. Only Cheechoo, Ovechkin and Stamkos has been able to score 55 or more since the 2004-05 lockout.

On pace, on pace, on pace. Those two words have to be the most overused on these boards. Very few players ever stays "on pace" with anything even the very best. They always cool down or get injured etc. Not to say he can't or won't do it but yeesh. All these "on pace" threads make me chuckle. You go back and look none of them ever come true. lol

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Finishing top 5 as an all-time goal scorer (even factoring for era context) would be a very tall order. There are some giants on that list:

1. Rocket Richard (the first 50/50 goal scorer, 82 playoff goals in 133 playoff games. I don't think Matthews is getting the trophy named after him)
2. Bobby Hull (7 goal scoring titles)
3. Guy Lafleur (six 50 goals seasons in a row, 58 playoff goals in 128 playoff games)
4. Mike Bossy (nine 50 goal seasons in a row, 85 playoff goals in 129 playoff games)
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Mario Lemieux
7. Alexander Ovechkin

I don't see Top 5 happening unless he starts winning some Rockets very soon. And scores his healthy share of playoff goals.

All depends how you weigh a top 5. I could see him having a very Gartneresque career. A guy who (barring injury of course) consistently puts up season after season. Doing just that landed Gartner at #7 overall for totals (sans context of course). What we know so far about Matthews is no matter who he plays with or what his ice time and usage, he's basically a lock for 40+ goal pace. Has done so every year of his career and hasn't even hit his prime yet. That's actually superior to Gartner, who played much of his career in the 80's. So injuries aside, it isn't unreasonable that he'll finish very high up the totals list despite the era difference. Look how many guys in the top 15 totals played a lot in the 80's. He's also scored at almost exactly the same rate in playoff hockey (0.5 G/GP). His current playoff goal scoring pace puts him right around top 15 all time (ahead of Lafleur....again, hasn't hit his prime).

Whether it's top 5, top 10....no matter really. I don't think people appreciate how special his goal scoring is, especially when you factor in eras. He has to deliver on it obviously but the potential he is showing is scary.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Woah there!
He has a long way to go before he enters into the great goal scorers discussion. He’s no doubt off to a good start but me needs to win a Rocket or two to get in the discussion. Not many people care that much about the other stats. He’s definitely in the top three this year though. Should be a good race.

If he continues doing what he has to date over his career (and plays a full career), there is no question he'll end up among the top all time, awards or no awards.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

If he continues doing what he has to date over his career (and plays a full career), there is no question he'll end up among the top all time, awards or no awards.

No. He will need to win multiple Rockets. If he continues to score at a high rate and doesn’t win 4 or 5 Rockets like the other greats he will be a very good goal scorer. Not a generational one.
Every all time great goal scorer has that on his resume.
The Rocket had 5
Gordie Howe had 5
Bobby Hull had 6
Espo had 6
Gretzky 5
Lemieux 3
Ovechkin 8
Bure 3
Brett Hull 3

It’s possible though that he could join some very good goal scorers with one or two awards though.
Bondra, Selanne, Mike Bossy and Bernie Geoffrion each won two and a lot won one. If there’s no hardware though there’s no way he joins the list of the greats above.

 

[Thenameless]

All depends how you weigh a top 5. I could see him having a very Gartneresque career. A guy who (barring injury of course) consistently puts up season after season. Doing just that landed Gartner at #7 overall for totals (sans context of course).

I can definitely agree with Gartneresque. I was actually going to mention him as a comparable. Again, I wouldn't be too hopeful about ending up Top 5 though. There are some real heavyweights on that list.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I can definitely agree with Gartneresque. I was actually going to mention him as a comparable. Again, I wouldn't be too hopeful about ending up Top 5 though. There are some real heavyweights on that list.

Top 5 may be generous but again, in part comes down to how you weight things. Some players were great scorers but shorter careers. The whole 80's thing of course. Awards obviously helps. On Gartner, the comparison may be apt in terms of consistency but where it falls apart is comparison to peers. I think Gartner only finished top 10 three times and only higher than 9th (5th) once? Matthews finished second once and I think is currently second again. On pure production rates he may be #1 since he started. Regardless, going to be interesting to watch.

Some of this is actually making me take more notice of Ovechkin. When you consider his era, his numbers become much more impressive.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

After doing my own legwork to confirm/ determine the actual records here, I see that:
1) Rick Vaive once scored 54 goals for the Leafs.
2) Dave Andreychuk once scored 53 goals for the Leafs.

I voted #5. I wouldn't be shocked if Matthews cleared 54. But **** happens and scorers can go hot and cold. For example: a very respectable 18 goals in the remaining 35 games would be great, but would put him short of both players.

And lol at people getting mad that Rick Vaive is not well known. I'm in my 40s. I remember seeing at least some of Rick Vaive's career when I was a kid. I remember the weird neck brace thingy he wore. Maybe it was different earlier in his career, but his profile later on while he was still in the league wasn't super-high. 30+ years later, it's totally reasonable that people won't know Vaive. Not in an era that had the dynasty Islanders, the dynasty Oilers, Mario Lemieux, Ray Bourque, Patrick Roy, Dale Hawerchuk, Peter Stastny, Denis Savard, and so on. I'd put Vaive on par with someone like John Ogrodnick (a former 55 goal scorer that I suspect many people in this thread are hearing of for the first time).

 

[Pyrophorus]

I would really like him too.
In fact I would like him to work like Crosby and get 60.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If he continues to score at a high rate and doesn’t win 4 or 5 Rockets like the other greats he will be a very good goal scorer. Not a generational one.

This is ridiculous. Rockets are not the sole determining measure of goal scoring ability.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If Ovechkin was a generational goal scorer coming into the league so is a Matthews as far as talent goes. Only diff is Matthews had generationally low PP time and Ov had generationally high PP time.

 

[Mugzy97]

What you get when a leaf board topic goes main board.

If you put a poll on the main board I assume you are looking for the opinion of the NHL fan base and not just the Leafs fan base? There is nothing wrong with where he posted this IMO.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

If you put a poll on the main board I assume you are looking for the opinion of the NHL fan base and not just the Leafs fan base? There is nothing wrong with where he posted this IMO.

poll result with “I don’t know who this is” as the #1 answer proves you and OP wrong.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

This is ridiculous. Rockets are not the sole determining measure of goal scoring ability.

Lol! Post a list of all the generational goal scorers who didn’t win multiple Rockets.
There are none.
That’s because every single generational goal scorer in the history of the game has on multiple occasions scored the most goals in a season.
Cherry picked stats won’t get your boy in that group. Sorry.

 

[BlueBaron]

I'm not sure why people think Richard trophies are required to be among the greatest all time. Obviously the two are likely to go hand in hand but it seems like you guys don't get that it's about total goals. He could be 1 goal short on a Richard every year but still have a higher career total than all his peers and still pass all time greats.

The main thing is keeping up his current pace (matching Ovies career pace I believe?) and he stays healthy.

Still, it's way too early for that kind of talk. I'm just going to enjoy him now and let the future take care of itself.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I'm not sure why people think Richard trophies are required to be among the greatest all time. Obviously the two are likely to go hand in hand but it seems like you guys don't get that it's about total goals. He could be 1 goal short on a Richard every year but still have a higher career total than all his peers and still pass all time greats.

The main thing is keeping up his current pace (matching Ovies career pace I believe?) and he stays healthy.

Still, it's way too early for that kind of talk. I'm just going to enjoy him now and let the future take care of itself.

Yes. I’ll wait for your list of players who didn’t win multiple Rockets and were amongst the greatest goal scorers of all time.
If he’s the greatest of this generation he will win multiple Rockets. There has never been a generational goal scorer who missed by one goal every year. It just doesn’t happen. You guys are going to ridiculous lengths to make excuses. If he wants to join the greats he needs to sore the most goals in a few seasons. If he doesn’t then yes he can still be a very good deal scorer. Just keep the generational stuff out of it. And for sure enjoy him. He’s a very good player.