Will Atlanta Get Another Team?

[MikeCubs]

Not too familiar with the Atlanta arena situation other than knowing that State Farm Arena was recently renovated to basketball only configurations. Just wondering why a downtown arena wouldn't be the desired location for a new NHL team there. Isn't the current problem with both Arizona and Ottawa that their arenas are too far from downtown? It seems that most new sports facilities are being built in downtown locations. What would make Atlanta different in that regard?

State Farm arena is still NHL compatible. The table area behind the hoop can be removed.
Atlanta is a little different in that most of the rich fans live in the north suburbs(at least for baseball).

Ticket sales by area for the Braves from a few years ago below

I can't see an arena being privately financed though for just hockey. Only a few elite teams in any of the 4 major sports can privately finance their own facility. Yes Atlanta totally got 100% screwed by Atlanta Spirit but still I don't see them being so great they can build their own building with no public help plus pay an expansion fee. The guy who did the Braves deal in Cobb county was voted out of office so they aren't going to get public help in the suburbs.

Arena cost are now up to $700M dollars

As Philadelphia changes, Wells Fargo Center tries to change with it

I think it would be best to wait until you can get into State Farm Arena again and avoid the costs of a new arena. Maybe the new Hawks owners will eventually want hockey or very long term they will sell. Owners don't last forever. Things change. Look how all of a sudden Houston got an owner that wants NHL. Same could happen some day in Atlanta

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Not too familiar with the Atlanta arena situation other than knowing that State Farm Arena was recently renovated to basketball only configurations. Just wondering why a downtown arena wouldn't be the desired location for a new NHL team there. Isn't the current problem with both Arizona and Ottawa that their arenas are too far from downtown? It seems that most new sports facilities are being built in downtown locations. What would make Atlanta different in that regard?

part of that is the standard agreement....no league can enter another's territory, and if there's an existing team DB.... Atlanta has hockey

 

[dkitson16]

part of that is the standard agreement....no league can enter another's territory, and if there's an existing team DB.... Atlanta has hockey

You keep saying this without any evidence.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

You keep saying this without any evidence.

so where's the ownership willing to pay 10 Million + or an NHL affiliation is now required before approval

 

[Bear of Bad News]

so where's the ownership willing to pay 10 Million + or an NHL affiliation is now required before approval

That's not evidence of what you claimed.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

That's not evidence of what you claimed.

Bear:

that has been the rule of MO since 2001, all 6 teams accepted were told that had to have an NHL affiliation, the Independent days ended well before that, where you simply could operate without an affiliation

Baltimore and Binghamton each went independent at the AHL Level and were unmitigated disasters on ice, if not off ice, Baltimore's was 87-88, AND Binghamton's were around the same timeframe, is when the league started requiring an affiliation either be part of any proposed franchise, that was the year prior to Ebright buying the franchise there, and Washington in '88/89 UNTIL 2004/05, became the affiliate of record.... Baltimore's losses at the time of the relocation to Portland were 2.5 M

 

[DowntownBooster]

State Farm arena is still NHL compatible. The table area behind the hoop can be removed.
Atlanta is a little different in that most of the rich fans live in the north suburbs(at least for baseball).

Ticket sales by area for the Braves from a few years ago below

I can't see an arena being privately financed though for just hockey. Only a few elite teams in any of the 4 major sports can privately finance their own facility. Yes Atlanta totally got 100% screwed by Atlanta Spirit but still I don't see them being so great they can build their own building with no public help plus pay an expansion fee. The guy who did the Braves deal in Cobb county was voted out of office so they aren't going to get public help in the suburbs.

Arena cost are now up to $700M dollars

As Philadelphia changes, Wells Fargo Center tries to change with it

I think it would be best to wait until you can get into State Farm Arena again and avoid the costs of a new arena. Maybe the new Hawks owners will eventually want hockey or very long term they will sell. Owners don't last forever. Things change. Look how all of a sudden Houston got an owner that wants NHL. Same could happen some day in Atlanta

part of that is the standard agreement....no league can enter another's territory, and if there's an existing team DB.... Atlanta has hockey

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Bear:

that has been the rule of MO since 2001, all 6 teams accepted were told that had to have an NHL affiliation, the Independent days ended well before that, where you simply could operate without an affiliation

Baltimore and Binghamton each went independent at the AHL Level and were unmitigated disasters on ice, if not off ice, Baltimore's was 87-88, AND Binghamton's were around the same timeframe, is when the league started requiring an affiliation either be part of any proposed franchise, that was the year prior to Ebright buying the franchise there, and Washington in '88/89 UNTIL 2004/05, became the affiliate of record.... Baltimore's losses at the time of the relocation to Portland were 2.5 M

And again, what does this have to do with the claim that you're being asked to show evidence for: "no league can enter another's territory, and if there's an existing team DB."?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

And again, what does this have to do with the claim that you're being asked to show evidence for: "no league can enter another's territory, and if there's an existing team DB."?

uh, it's been a rule across leagues..... no team currently served by a league can have another team from ANY league enter its territory unless it's declared an open territory....

ie, Atlanta would have to be declared open territory for any franchise to enter or be approved, ie, the existing Gladiators would have to collapse or cease operations, neither of which is occurring

 

[BattleBorn]

I'm guessing we're not counting junior hockey as a "league" but in case we are...the NHL just entered a WHL metro area x2 today.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

uh, it's been a rule across leagues..... no team currently served by a league can have another team from ANY league enter its territory unless it's declared an open territory....

ie, Atlanta would have to be declared open territory for any franchise to enter or be approved, ie, the existing Gladiators would have to collapse or cease operations, neither of which is occurring

Right, we agree that you keep saying this. Evidence doesn't mean that you just say it again.

Give some evidence other than "I think that this is the case, and it applies here".

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Right, we agree that you keep saying this. Evidence doesn't mean that you just say it again.

Give some evidence other than "I think that this is the case, and it applies here".

experience

 

[Bear of Bad News]

experience

Sure thing.

 

[Jets4Life]

part of that is the standard agreement....no league can enter another's territory, and if there's an existing team DB.... Atlanta has hockey

You have no idea what you are talking about. Considering numerous people have explained to you how having a minor hockey team has no bearing on the city obtaining an NHL club, leads me to believe you are simply trolling.

Recent examples that disprove your claim:

2011: Winnipeg Jets (NHL) displace Manitoba Moose (AHL)
1997: Carolina Hurricanes (NHL) displace Carolina Monarchs (AHL)
1995: Colorado Rockies (NHL) displace Denver Grizzlies (IHL)

 

[Ted Hoffman]

This is exactly what happened with the Thrashers. Time Warner, which was pretty heavily involved with Ted Turner, owned the expansion Thrashers, plus the Atlanta Hawks, plus the Atlanta Braves.

In the aftermath of the disastrous AOL/Time Warner merger, they began divesting themselves of various holdings. That's how ASG ended up buying the Thrashers and Hawks, in addition to operating rights to Philips Arena. Whereas Ted Turner was a true sportsman who could not tolerate mediocrity, ASG never saw sports, teams, and fans as anything more than a line on a ledger.

The idea that the Thrashers would have continued to languish under Turner and Time Warner is absurd.

This bears repeating. A good corollary to this is St. Louis and the NFL; after having (and losing) 2 different teams, I'm sure there are people who look at St. Louis and say "no way in hell it should get yet another team when fan support sucked for the first two." It ignores that fan support went to hell over shitty ownership in both cases (fans stayed away in droves in the 80s because they hated Bill Bidwell and the way he ran the Cardinals like a shoddy also-ran; they stayed away in the last few years of the Rams existence because Kroenke hired morons to run the team to ensure it was shit on the field so fans stayed away so he could build a case for moving the team to LA) and that when ownership and team mismanagement wasn't an issue, fan support was there.

As I always like to point out, winning has a way of making bad markets look good - and losing has a way of making good markets look bad. It's especially true for both the NHL in Atlanta the 2nd time around; having an ownership group that was fractured and then later openly hostile to the hockey side of operations is a great way to chase away fans no matter how interested they may be in the sport, no matter the location of the franchise.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Considering numerous people have explained to you how having a minor hockey team has no bearing on the city obtaining an NHL club, leads me to believe you are simply trolling.

Recent examples that disprove your claim:

2011: Winnipeg Jets (NHL) displace Manitoba Moose (AHL)
1997: Carolina Hurricanes (NHL) displace Carolina Monarchs (AHL)
1995: Colorado Rockies (NHL) displace Denver Grizzlies (IHL)

Yea I can’t imagine leagues like NHL would let minor league teams stop them from expanding or moving teams.

 

[sexydonut]

This bears repeating. A good corollary to this is St. Louis and the NFL; after having (and losing) 2 different teams, I'm sure there are people who look at St. Louis and say "no way in hell it should get yet another team when fan support sucked for the first two." It ignores that fan support went to hell over ****ty ownership in both cases (fans stayed away in droves in the 80s because they hated Bill Bidwell and the way he ran the Cardinals like a shoddy also-ran; they stayed away in the last few years of the Rams existence because Kroenke hired morons to run the team to ensure it was **** on the field so fans stayed away so he could build a case for moving the team to LA) and that when ownership and team mismanagement wasn't an issue, fan support was there.

As I always like to point out, winning has a way of making bad markets look good - and losing has a way of making good markets look bad. It's especially true for both the NHL in Atlanta the 2nd time around; having an ownership group that was fractured and then later openly hostile to the hockey side of operations is a great way to chase away fans no matter how interested they may be in the sport, no matter the location of the franchise.

Don't forget about both LA football teams bolting in the same year. Washington losing two baseball teams, San Diego losing two NBA teams, Montreal losing the Expos, and Seattle and Vancouver losing NBA teams within a few years of each other.

North American sports leagues are a cartel and they maintain high franchise values partially because they intentionally limit the supply of franchises. They get cities to compete against each other to subsidize services and grant tax breaks.

Both the Atlanta Flames and Thrashers were owned by carpet baggers who raided team cash flow to pay themselves. Might as well cite the Grizzlies and Expos sad sack history of crook owners.

 

[joelef]

This bears repeating. A good corollary to this is St. Louis and the NFL; after having (and losing) 2 different teams, I'm sure there are people who look at St. Louis and say "no way in hell it should get yet another team when fan support sucked for the first two." It ignores that fan support went to hell over ****ty ownership in both cases (fans stayed away in droves in the 80s because they hated Bill Bidwell and the way he ran the Cardinals like a shoddy also-ran; they stayed away in the last few years of the Rams existence because Kroenke hired morons to run the team to ensure it was **** on the field so fans stayed away so he could build a case for moving the team to LA) and that when ownership and team mismanagement wasn't an issue, fan support was there.

As I always like to point out, winning has a way of making bad markets look good - and losing has a way of making good markets look bad. It's especially true for both the NHL in Atlanta the 2nd time around; having an ownership group that was fractured and then later openly hostile to the hockey side of operations is a great way to chase away fans no matter how interested they may be in the sport, no matter the location of the franchise.

funny LA nor miami get the benefit of the doubt . They just say there "bad sports towns"

 

[Doctor No]

funny LA nor miami get the benefit of the doubt . They just say there "bad sports towns"

Are you intentionally being ironic, or did you miss the point of IB's post?

 

[garnetpalmetto]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Considering numerous people have explained to you how having a minor hockey team has no bearing on the city obtaining an NHL club, leads me to believe you are simply trolling.

Recent examples that disprove your claim:

2011: Winnipeg Jets (NHL) displace Manitoba Moose (AHL)
1997: Carolina Hurricanes (NHL) displace Carolina Monarchs (AHL)
1995: Colorado Rockies (NHL) displace Denver Grizzlies (IHL)

And to add more data points

2000: Columbus Blue Jackets (NHL) displace Columbus Chill (ECHL)

1998: Nashville Predators (NHL) displace Nashville Ice Flyers (CHL)

1997: Atlanta Thrashers (NHL) displace Atlanta Knights (IHL)

Also to be technical the Hurricanes displaced two teams - the AHL Monarchs and the ECHL Raleigh Ice Caps.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Considering numerous people have explained to you how having a minor hockey team has no bearing on the city obtaining an NHL club, leads me to believe you are simply trolling.

Recent examples that disprove your claim:

2011: Winnipeg Jets (NHL) displace Manitoba Moose (AHL)
1997: Carolina Hurricanes (NHL) displace Carolina Monarchs (AHL)
1995: Colorado Rockies (NHL) displace Denver Grizzlies (IHL)

the AHL has placed clubs in the same city as nhl teams going back to even the 70s Boston Braves (AHL) - Wikipedia

 

[BKIslandersFan]

How many of these seats are obstructed?

 

[sexydonut]

The former Philips Arena can just as easily be converted back to a hockey-friendly configuration. The hard points of the arena were built to an NHL rink dimensions.

All the talk of making it basketball-only is essentially fluff. Plus I can see any reasonably corrupt/business friendly municipality being lobbied/bribed into producing yet another subsidized plaything for a sports billionaire.

Atlanta's actually a very large, very wealthy market full of northern transplants. So they lost two hockey teams. Not any different from LA losing two football teams and Washington losing two baseball teams San Diego losing two basketball teams. The list just goes on.

 

[DowntownBooster]

How many of these seats are obstructed?

Those 2 in the far corner.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The former Philips Arena can just as easily be converted back to a hockey-friendly configuration. The hard points of the arena were built to an NHL rink dimensions.

All the talk of making it basketball-only is essentially fluff. Plus I can see any reasonably corrupt/business friendly municipality being lobbied/bribed into producing yet another subsidized plaything for a sports billionaire.

Atlanta's actually a very large, very wealthy market full of northern transplants. So they lost two hockey teams. Not any different from LA losing two football teams and Washington losing two baseball teams San Diego losing two basketball teams. The list just goes on.

then why was it transformed into a basketball only configuration, and why is the metro so spread out that Cobb County now is 'technically' Metro Atlanta, not Fulton County, ie, why did the Braves bolt Fulton for Cobb, and why is Cobb now the center of entertainment, even the speedway isn't in Atlanta, but Hampton, sd