Will another hockey player ever have Gretzky's wide appeal and notoriety?

[Big Phil]

In the age of Social Media, probably come close at least. Problem is these guys like McDavid and Crosby just don't seem to have the outgoing personality to benefit from it enough.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, but they have a more shy personality. Quieter, etc. This was often a criticism of Mario Lemieux when he was playing in the same league as Gretzky. Mario wasn't selfish, he just didn't have that natural ability that Gretzky had to interact, few do. Even Lindros, if he had ever hit the superhuman levels of Gretzky would have not quite had the same appeal. I don't know, could it be that Gretzky had the everydayman look to him?

For the record Crosby did appear on Jay Leno in 2005. Keep in mind, he is a prospect at this point and it is the summer and Leno has him shoot pucks into a dryer. I remember thinking right away that Crosby didn't look completely comfortable at that point, but he was 18, who would? Eventually you realize that this whole "famous" thing just wasn't him.

Incidentally, what is the "notoriety" part of Gretzky...?

Not in the bad sense of the word "notoriety" of course. Maybe that was the wrong choice of word. I just mean name recognition, even facial recognition.

 

[Big Phil]

I was thinking about a quote from Larry Bird back in the day. It might have been 1988 or so because the Oilers were playing in the Boston Garden for the Cup final and Bird's Celtics were playing in the playoffs at the same time. Someone made an off the cuff comment to Bird along the lines of "you can warm up the crowd for Gretzky" who was playing either later in the day or the next day in Boston. Bird took exception and said that "Gretzky can do that for ME!"

It just got me thinking, Larry Bird for all of his greatness was not Wayne Gretzky. So which brings me to another point, in his era, let's say the 1980s, what athlete was more well known that Gretzky? This is the list I've got.

Bird, Magic Johnson, Joe Montana, Dan Marino(?), Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, possibly later Bo Jackson. I can't think of a boxer in the 1980s that compares even closely. Was there a more famous athlete in the western world?

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Bird, Magic Johnson, Joe Montana, Dan Marino(?), Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, possibly later Bo Jackson. I can't think of a boxer in the 1980s that compares even closely. Was there a more famous athlete in the western world?

Michael Jordan

 

[Big Phil]

Michael Jordan

Right, but in the 1980s? Jordan didn't really hit his stride until the late 1980s. 1988 or 1989. Overall Jordan beats Gretzky here just because basketball is more popular than hockey in the states and he had a shoe named after him.

 

[The Panther]

I was thinking about a quote from Larry Bird back in the day. It might have been 1988 or so because the Oilers were playing in the Boston Garden for the Cup final and Bird's Celtics were playing in the playoffs at the same time. Someone made an off the cuff comment to Bird along the lines of "you can warm up the crowd for Gretzky" who was playing either later in the day or the next day in Boston. Bird took exception and said that "Gretzky can do that for ME!"

It just got me thinking, Larry Bird for all of his greatness was not Wayne Gretzky. So which brings me to another point, in his era, let's say the 1980s, what athlete was more well known that Gretzky?

 

[psycat]

I believe it's simply because he was that dominating. Impossible to ignore as you described it, everybody knows Gretzky.

 

[streitz]

Well the difference is Gretzky was dominating the league as an 18 year old, won a cup when he was what, like 22? From there a dynasty ect ect.


Jordan spent like 8 years getting bullied(and I really do mean bullied) by the Pistons. Obviously from the early 90's the rest is history.

 

[MadLuke]

Bird, Magic Johnson, Joe Montana, Dan Marino(?), Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, possibly later Bo Jackson. I can't think of a boxer in the 1980s that compares even closely. Was there a more famous athlete in the western world?

Mike Tyson considering most of the western world is in Europe it would be hard for a north american to tell, Prost, Maradona, Platini, Carl Lewis ?

 

[FerrisRox]

I can't think of a boxer in the 1980s that compares even closely. Was there a more famous athlete in the western world?

Mike Tyson.

 

[Big Phil]

Mike Tyson.

Fair enough. Of course, didn't dominate at his best quite like Gretzky, but was notorious, and obviously well known.

 

[unknown33]

The NHL needs to pull off NFL style rule changes favoring offense
People love record chases

 

[The Panther]

The NHL needs to pull off NFL style rule changes favoring offense
People love record chases

I think the recent goalie-equipment tweaks and all-out speed game today are finally showing signs of this happening. Goalies are amazingly less dominant now than even five years ago. A dude had a five-goal game a few days ago. Weird stuff sometimes happens now.

Now, we just need a new Gretzky...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He said Gretzky had name cache that transcended his sport like those athletes did and that was absolutely true.

i don't want to get into a whole thing about having to be right all the time but transcended his sport like walt disney and luke skywalker?

Mike Tyson considering most of the western world is in Europe it would be hard for a north american to tell, Prost, Maradona, Platini, Carl Lewis ?

carl lewis had to have been the most famous athlete in the world in the '80s right? he won four gold medals in 1984 including the 100.

in basketball, everybody is forgetting that kareem abdul-jabbar is still racking up championships, all-star nods, and awards in the 1980s. and dr. j is still a force up to mid-decade too. if we're talking name recognition, wide appeal, and notoriety, those are some all-time heavy hitters.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Bird, Magic Johnson, Joe Montana, Dan Marino(?), Pete Rose, Jose Canseco, possibly later Bo Jackson. I can't think of a boxer in the 1980s that compares even closely. Was there a more famous athlete in the western world?

Diego Armando Maradona.

 

[Big Phil]

I think the recent goalie-equipment tweaks and all-out speed game today are finally showing signs of this happening. Goalies are amazingly less dominant now than even five years ago. A dude had a five-goal game a few days ago. Weird stuff sometimes happens now.

Now, we just need a new Gretzky...

I said ALL the time back in the dead puck era and even after the lockout when scoring was a little stagnant that while goalies are the best athletes on the team they are not as good as people all of the sudden said they became. Much of it was in part due to trapping defenses and goaltending equipment. This is how Garth Snow managed to help take a team to the Cup final, for example.

No, no, no............goalies are better, that's why. Goalies anytime before the mid-1990s just sucked. (Sigh)...................

The fact that GAA of goaltenders went down right away as soon as equipment ballooned was no shock. The fact that GAA has gone up since the new equipment changes is not a shock either. I've seen some bad goals let in - hey, just like the 1980s - from time to time that a goalie just let hit them only 2 years ago. Now we are at the same level as when Mario put up 161 points in a season.

Now if we can just get that passion back in the game (fights, hits without overreaction from the media) we'll have the perfect game again

 

[The Panther]

I said ALL the time back in the dead puck era and even after the lockout when scoring was a little stagnant that while goalies are the best athletes on the team they are not as good as people all of the sudden said they became. Much of it was in part due to trapping defenses and goaltending equipment. This is how Garth Snow managed to help take a team to the Cup final, for example.

No, no, no............goalies are better, that's why. Goalies anytime before the mid-1990s just sucked. (Sigh)...................

The fact that GAA of goaltenders went down right away as soon as equipment ballooned was no shock. The fact that GAA has gone up since the new equipment changes is not a shock either. I've seen some bad goals let in - hey, just like the 1980s - from time to time that a goalie just let hit them only 2 years ago. Now we are at the same level as when Mario put up 161 points in a season.

Now if we can just get that passion back in the game (fights, hits without overreaction from the media) we'll have the perfect game again

I agree with everything you wrote.

Here is the peak evolution of goaltending:


There are so many bad goals going in lately I had to check the calendar and make sure I didn't Marty-McFly back to 1985. There are many 80s'-era playoff series (and RS games for that matter) with much better goaltending than I've seen recently.

 

[streitz]

Right, but in the 1980s? Jordan didn't really hit his stride until the late 1980s. 1988 or 1989. Overall Jordan beats Gretzky here just because basketball is more popular than hockey in the states and he had a shoe named after him.

Joe Montana

 

[streitz]

Now if we can just get that passion back in the game (fights, hits without overreaction from the media) we'll have the perfect game again

Not only is that never going to happen but it's going to get even worse lol.

 

[The Panther]

Now if we can just get that passion back in the game (fights, hits without overreaction from the media) we'll have the perfect game again

I also agree that this is the one thing missing now. I don't necessarily think we need 'fights' per se (though a bit more would be welcome), but just more intense passion and enmity between teams. Hockey unfortunately is trending like the NBA now, where players on opposing teams are all 'besties', chatting and taking selfies before games.

The easy solution is to divide the (increasingly large and unwieldy) League into two different Leagues, and thus have divisional rivals play each other A LOT more often.

 

[Big Phil]

I also agree that this is the one thing missing now. I don't necessarily think we need 'fights' per se (though a bit more would be welcome), but just more intense passion and enmity between teams. Hockey unfortunately is trending like the NBA now, where players on opposing teams are all 'besties', chatting and taking selfies before games.

The easy solution is to divide the (increasingly large and unwieldy) League into two different Leagues, and thus have divisional rivals play each other A LOT more often.

Then have it like the National League vs. the American League in Baseball? If so, that'll never happen. I don't know what it will take to throw more passion into the game. Maybe it is because its November right now, I don't know, but I was watching the Leafs pound the Flyers the other night 6-0 and the Flyers of old would never have let that happen. If they lost like that, they'd at least stand up for themselves, leave an imprint on the game like throw their body around or drop the mitts.

 

[The Panther]

Then have it like the National League vs. the American League in Baseball? If so, that'll never happen.

Phil, why do you think this'll never happen? As long as there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, the NHL will do anything. Do you think it will be a money-loser to have two Leagues?

 

[rfournier103]

Wayne Gretzky was an absolute perfect storm. A dozen planets aligned at just the right moment to create a hockey "David" who slew all kinds of "Goliaths" over the course of 20 NHL seasons. If one had a mind to do so, one could write an entire thesis on several facets of Gretzky's career. The hows and whys of what made him so great will be discussed long after all of us are in the ground, much the same way Babe Ruth's hitting AND pitching are still discussed in baseball circles.

Here's my Cliffs Notes thesis...

First of all, Gretzky just had mind-blowing God-given talent. That is the number one ingredient in all this. To be a transcendent player like a Gretzky or an Orr, that is a MUST. Not much more to say about that.

Secondly, Gretzky played in an era of wide open hockey. Whatever the reasons were, there was just more scoring in the 1980s. He had the benefit of playing in the highest scoring era of all time. Nobody could have any control over that, but it certainly didn't hurt Wayne's numbers. Sure, lots of guys scored lots of goals, but it comes back to my first point - talent. Wayne had a little more talent and that helped him alot.

Thirdly, this amazing phenom played on the most talented team of his era. Not only was Wayne Gretzky more talented than his peers, his teammates were pretty amazing themselves. They fed off each other and feasted on the rest of the NHL in a way that nobody else really ever has. Had Gretzky played for the Minnesota North Stars, I think the Oilers would still have contended for the Cup, but I think Gretzky's numbers would be more in line with the other top scorers of the early and mid-1980s.

Another factor that helped Gretzky was the fact that he played in the Smythe Division. The Oilers were fed a steady diet of Kings, Canucks, Jets, and Flames hockey. Living on the East Coast myself, I couldn't follow the Smythe Division that closely, but I do know that the Oilers were the class of that division for many years and Gretzky scored A LOT on those teams. Just like Tom Brady and the Patriots playing in the AFC East - it's almost not fair. Had the Oilers been in the Adams or Patrick Divisions, I think it may have hurt his numbers a little. I'm not saying we'd have never heard of him, I'm just saying his numbers would be a little less. If the Oilers were still in the Smythe and Gretzky played for one of the Adams or Patrick Division teams, I think his numbers would be even lower without the high-powered Oilers backing him up.

So, all those things came together to create a high-scoring juggernaut. His numbers were too good to ignore, and even if you play in Edmonton, people will notice. "Sport" magazine, "Sports Illustrated," "Time," and numerous other publications covered every single milestone. The "news" was reported. If another player is going to garner Gretzky-like appeal, he's going to have to put up numbers and break some records.

Now that we have that, what ELSE made him such an icon? This is where the real speculation comes in...

He's "relatable." Beside his otherworldly hockey skills, Wayne Gretzky was exactly like hundreds of people I know personally. Working/middle class, and just a regular joe. Not too handsome; not much bigger or heavier than the guys watching on TV at home; not much of a big mouth; modest; and hard working. Kind of an "everyman" in skates.

I also think he kind of broke the image of the knuckle-dragging thug that most Americans had at that time of NHL hockey players. As great as Bobby Orr was, he loved a good fight, and the whole world knew it. Gretzky wasn't like that. He played the game differently and people noticed. He did all the interviews and didn't make it seem like a chore. I heard Connor McDavid say very awkwardly on NHL Network Radio that he does interviews because he has to. Whether he feels that way or not, Wayne Gretzky would NEVER say that! Gretzky is articulate and well-spoken, and always made time for the press. The public got to know him because he let us in in a way McDavid, Crosby, and Matthews just don't. They just seem a little awkward to me, and hockey isn't mainstream enough where the American media and public would get past that. Gretzky never shied away from the media, and when he left the Oilers, he made stops in the two biggest media markets in the Western Hemisphere. Having already moved into the spotlight in Edmonton, playing for the Kings and Rangers intensified and kept him in the spotlight. Not to mention that people's attention spans are shorter these days, and unless someone really makes themselves noticeable, non-hockey fans will just move on to something else.

For another NHL hockey player to achieve the fame and recognition that Wayne Gretzky had, it would take a serious attention grabber with ungodly talent and record-shattering stats that is also super-accessible to the media. That being said, I doubt we will see another phenomenon like Wayne Gretzky anytime soon. He was once in a lifetime. To put it in perspective - Babe Ruth retired in 1935 and baseball STILL hasn't seen anything like him! Just like Ruth; Muhammad Ali; and Michael Jordan; Gretzky was one of a kind and we'll never see anyone like him ever again.

 

[The Panther]

Wayne Gretzky was an absolute perfect storm. A dozen planets aligned at just the right moment to create a hockey "David" who slew all kinds of "Goliaths" over the course of 20 NHL seasons. If one had a mind to do so, one could write an entire thesis on several facets of Gretzky's career. The hows and whys of what made him so great will be discussed long after all of us are in the ground, much the same way Babe Ruth's hitting AND pitching are still discussed in baseball circles.

Here's my Cliffs Notes thesis...

First of all, Gretzky just had mind-blowing God-given talent. That is the number one ingredient in all this. To be a transcendent player like a Gretzky or an Orr, that is a MUST. Not much more to say about that.

Secondly, Gretzky played in an era of wide open hockey. Whatever the reasons were, there was just more scoring in the 1980s. He had the benefit of playing in the highest scoring era of all time. Nobody could have any control over that, but it certainly didn't hurt Wayne's numbers. Sure, lots of guys scored lots of goals, but it comes back to my first point - talent. Wayne had a little more talent and that helped him alot.

Thirdly, this amazing phenom played on the most talented team of his era. Not only was Wayne Gretzky more talented than his peers, his teammates were pretty amazing themselves. They fed off each other and feasted on the rest of the NHL in a way that nobody else really ever has. Had Gretzky played for the Minnesota North Stars, I think the Oilers would still have contended for the Cup, but I think Gretzky's numbers would be more in line with the other top scorers of the early and mid-1980s.

Another factor that helped Gretzky was the fact that he played in the Smythe Division. The Oilers were fed a steady diet of Kings, Canucks, Jets, and Flames hockey. Living on the East Coast myself, I couldn't follow the Smythe Division that closely, but I do know that the Oilers were the class of that division for many years and Gretzky scored A LOT on those teams. Just like Tom Brady and the Patriots playing in the AFC East - it's almost not fair. Had the Oilers been in the Adams or Patrick Divisions, I think it may have hurt his numbers a little. I'm not saying we'd have never heard of him, I'm just saying his numbers would be a little less. If the Oilers were still in the Smythe and Gretzky played for one of the Adams or Patrick Division teams, I think his numbers would be even lower without the high-powered Oilers backing him up.

So, all those things came together to create a high-scoring juggernaut. His numbers were too good to ignore, and even if you play in Edmonton, people will notice. "Sport" magazine, "Sports Illustrated," "Time," and numerous other publications covered every single milestone. The "news" was reported. If another player is going to garner Gretzky-like appeal, he's going to have to put up numbers and break some records.

Now that we have that, what ELSE made him such an icon? This is where the real speculation comes in...

He's "relatable." Beside his otherworldly hockey skills, Wayne Gretzky was exactly like hundreds of people I know personally. Working/middle class, and just a regular joe. Not too handsome; not much bigger or heavier than the guys watching on TV at home; not much of a big mouth; modest; and hard working. Kind of an "everyman" in skates.

I also think he kind of broke the image of the knuckle-dragging thug that most Americans had at that time of NHL hockey players. As great as Bobby Orr was, he loved a good fight, and the whole world knew it. Gretzky wasn't like that. He played the game differently and people noticed. He did all the interviews and didn't make it seem like a chore. I heard Connor McDavid say very awkwardly on NHL Network Radio that he does interviews because he has to. Whether he feels that way or not, Wayne Gretzky would NEVER say that! Gretzky is articulate and well-spoken, and always made time for the press. The public got to know him because he let us in in a way McDavid, Crosby, and Matthews just don't. They just seem a little awkward to me, and hockey isn't mainstream enough where the American media and public would get past that. Gretzky never shied away from the media, and when he left the Oilers, he made stops in the two biggest media markets in the Western Hemisphere. Having already moved into the spotlight in Edmonton, playing for the Kings and Rangers intensified and kept him in the spotlight. Not to mention that people's attention spans are shorter these days, and unless someone really makes themselves noticeable, non-hockey fans will just move on to something else.

For another NHL hockey player to achieve the fame and recognition that Wayne Gretzky had, it would take a serious attention grabber with ungodly talent and record-shattering stats that is also super-accessible to the media. That being said, I doubt we will see another phenomenon like Wayne Gretzky anytime soon. He was once in a lifetime. To put it in perspective - Babe Ruth retired in 1935 and baseball STILL hasn't seen anything like him! Just like Ruth; Muhammad Ali; and Michael Jordan; Gretzky was one of a kind and we'll never see anyone like him ever again.

I agree with a lot of this post, but I think you're under-selling Gretzky when you say a couple of your points:

-- "Had Gretzky played for the Minnesota North Stars... I think Gretzky's numbers would be more in line with the other top scorers of the early and mid-1980s."

The evidence does not support this. Consider:

- 1979-80 Gretzky played a for a 1st-year expansion team with an all-AHL caliber line-up and had the #1 PPG in the NHL. That has to be one of the most incredible stats/scoring-feats in sports history (not just hockey), and the only reason it doesn't get more attention is the even-greater seasons Gretzky had later. No other player ever came remotely close to doing that. Mario was 9th. Crosby 6th. Selanne (two or three years older) 7th.

- 1980-81 Gretzky played for a losing team with no other PPG player and posted the highest scoring season in NHL history. So, just before he reached his physical prime, he was already the highest-scoring player in the history of hockey. The Smythe division, btw, didn't exist yet, and there was no other star-level player on the Oilers.

- 1993-94: Gretzky in his 15th NHL season, three years past his late-prime, won the scoring title on a .393 team.


Also, I have run the numbers on some of his seasons (I did a post once re: 1982-83 and 1983-84) and the idea that he scored much bigger numbers against the Smythe division isn't really true. He did tend to score less against the very tightest defensive teams of that era (ex: Washington, Montreal) but the sample sizes are so small I hesitate to draw any conclusion -- for one thing, he ripped Montreal a new one in the '81 playoff series --, but he still scored at a superhuman rate against all the other teams in the Adams, Patrick, etc.

So, I don't really see those points you made as holding up to close scrutiny.


Of course, I can't really point to actual evidence about how peak-era Gretzky would have done on a different team -- that's just speculation. I think it's clear that if he had played on a defence-first team with no Paul Coffey, he likely couldn't have cracked 200 points, etc. But, would it matter?

 

[McFlash97]

Gretzky was doing track meets with Sugar Ray and Ali, Montana, That's how big his status was as a hockey player. That's like saying McDavid or Crosby was going up against Mayweather, Federer etc in different events to see who was the best .

Note Gretzky came out on top on many of these events.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Here is the peak evolution of goaltending:

This has nothing to do with rule changes or new equipment, it's just Connor Hellybuck being terrible. And I can tell you precisely why Connor Helleybuck is terrible this year: because I picked him in my hockey pool.