Why they traded Hall (article)

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
85,950
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It's reductionist to pin that sole trade on turning our year around for that season. Much more likely was Talbot being a top 5 goalie in the world for the season and McDavid and Draisaitl having more points than any other tandem in the league. Yes Larsson was part of it. He's a very good player. But teams manage to add good d-men like Larsson all the time for less than what we gave up. If you can't get Adam Larsson for something less than Hall than do something different. If that's too "hard" for our GM, than he's not good at his job.

Larsson was a big part of the team and Klefbom's emergence IMO. That said the price that we paid was a high one, I never said otherwise and I was far less high on Hall than many before he left. Now we need a better defender or at least better offensive one, we'll see what Chia gives up or if he can even land one.
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
35,795
16,183
Same old tired argument. Hall had that type of season here multiple times.

Maybe he would have played 2nd fiddle. Or maybe we'd have clicked with McDavid if given more than ~4 games. Or maybe he and Draisaitl would have formed a dynamic line that would have been impossible for other teams to match up against while also trying to deal with McDavid.

So many conclusions were drawn by the lot of the Hall haters based on him having a poor ~25 games to end his last season here. As if it was somehow proof that he had to go and that he never could have done more here. Doubly frustrating because of the endless opo

As for upgrading on defense, funny how it was only the Oilers who needed to get absolutely raked over the coals to upgrade their defense. You mentioned the Devils. They added a top 4 puck moving RHD for a 2nd/3rd line C. We added a #3 defensive d-man for a world class player.

It's just amazing to me. Chiarelli pulled the exact same BS type of deals with the Bruins. Why do some Oiler fans think this deal somehow stands apart from all the other garbage Chiarelli has done in his career to make it not garbage?
It's fairly obvious that Hall would not have had as good a season here as he had in New Jersey. Hall might win the Hart. He would never get the Hart over McDavid on the Oilers. He wouldn't get the same role in key minutes either. I didn't say Hall would be bad if he stayed here. I loved Hall as an Oiler, and wanted him to be captain, he was great every year he was here. He was not "2018 great" though. I've been watching him.

As for only us overpaying, if you decide you MUST upgrade your defense, yeah, you will overpay. Vatanen was rumored to be available for a very long time, and Jersey had already had some wins when they got him. I can't think of a similar situation where there was one that got away from Chiarelli. Adam Larsson simply was not for sale.

I am hopeful that we have some kind of an edge to trade for Karlsson. The problem there is that he's a little bit too good. It would be better if it were a Vatanen equivalent available to us. But still, if we're not a major suitor for Karlsson then Chiarelli is failing at his job.
 

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
43,587
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Edmonton
Larsson was a big part of the team and Klefbom's emergence IMO. That said the price that we paid was a high one, I never said otherwise and I was far less high on Hall than many before he left. Now we need a better defender or at least better offensive one, we'll see what Chia gives up or if he can even land one.
He's had 3 years to get that d-man and hasn't been able to. With fewer assets and less cap space I don't see why that would change now.
 

MaxR11

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
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Same old tired argument. Hall had that type of season here multiple times.

Maybe he would have played 2nd fiddle. Or maybe we'd have clicked with McDavid if given more than ~4 games. Or maybe he and Draisaitl would have formed a dynamic line that would have been impossible for other teams to match up against while also trying to deal with McDavid.

So many conclusions were drawn by the lot of the Hall haters based on him having a poor ~25 games to end his last season here. As if it was somehow proof that he had to go and that he never could have done more here. Doubly frustrating because of the endless opo

As for upgrading on defense, funny how it was only the Oilers who needed to get absolutely raked over the coals to upgrade their defense. You mentioned the Devils. They added a top 4 puck moving RHD for a 2nd/3rd line C. We added a #3 defensive d-man for a world class player.

It's just amazing to me. Chiarelli pulled the exact same BS type of deals with the Bruins. Why do some Oiler fans think this deal somehow stands apart from all the other garbage Chiarelli has done in his career to make it not garbage?

hall did NOT have the same seasons here. points are not the be all end all. he did a LOT of bad things in his 80 pt season as far as irresponsible play, cheating, stupid giveaways etc etc etc. yes you still need to be a good offensive player to get 80 pts but doesn't mean your overall play is a net positive for the team... especially if you add the fact that he was a questionable teammate and character was of question as well.

no the conclusion is based on his entire body of work as an oiler. he was never a good pro. never played the right way despite getting points.

and as i've pointed out in another post... the whole chia made bad trades with the bruins is a bit of an overstatement and over-exaggerated.

the kessel trade was a win (got seguin AND doug hamilton).
seguin trade was not bad at the time (eriksson was a better player at the time and had 4 extremely good selke seasons but bruins got unlucky with eriksson getting injured.... reilly smith was a good talent)
wheeler was a 35-40 pt player that was struggling a bit behind the deep fwd depth of the bruins. he blossomed in the jets franchise because he was given the opportunity to play higher in the depth chart. his development would have been dicey in boston had he stayed.
 

BigFuzzyDice

the giant Kane in your azz
Jul 8, 2016
1,742
2,056
Same old tired argument. Hall had that type of season here multiple times.

Maybe he would have played 2nd fiddle. Or maybe we'd have clicked with McDavid if given more than ~4 games. Or maybe he and Draisaitl would have formed a dynamic line that would have been impossible for other teams to match up against while also trying to deal with McDavid.

So many conclusions were drawn by the lot of the Hall haters based on him having a poor ~25 games to end his last season here. As if it was somehow proof that he had to go and that he never could have done more here. Doubly frustrating because of the endless opo

As for upgrading on defense, funny how it was only the Oilers who needed to get absolutely raked over the coals to upgrade their defense. You mentioned the Devils. They added a top 4 puck moving RHD for a 2nd/3rd line C. We added a #3 defensive d-man for a world class player.

It's just amazing to me. Chiarelli pulled the exact same BS type of deals with the Bruins. Why do some Oiler fans think this deal somehow stands apart from all the other garbage Chiarelli has done in his career to make it not garbage?

The tired argument is that Hall would have magically done something here that his history up to the moment of the trade did not show. That with no external influence (like a trade of someone who felt untouchable) he would somehow evolve here into a better team player. all he needed was some snuggles from management and maybe bask in the light of McDavid just a little longer. When he was here his turnovers where untimely and costly, his "impressive" goal totals where in garbage time and his ability to influence the game was mostly negative.

Drai and hall clicked when drai first arrived on the scene because he was playing a simple north south game. After drai got comfortable in the NHL and his game went east west he no longer jived with halls straight forward one note rush game and everyone complained about how drai fell off at the end of the season. HE didn't fall off anything. His partner couldn't keep up with a more cerebral approach to the game and was always out of position to take the pass because it wasn't coming off the rush. Same reason McD and Hall didn't click. one plays with finesse the other approaches the game like a bull in a china shop. a cubic zirconia bull but a bull none the less.

Maybe the organization determined the return was less important than ridding themselves of the hall they had on their hands at the time of the trade and any return was going to work for them. I always thought they'd recognize the issue and unload him for a sack o cheeseburgers (cheese optional) so lars was a pretty decent win in my books.

Yes maybe those things you imagine would have happened, equally as probable was that as the core of the established culture tire fire on the team hall would have influenced McD who would begin to cheat for his offense and pay less attention to being defensively responsible then we could have let that culture vacuum suck our new captain down to that level instead of having him elevate the team to his. Yes another year may have saved hall here. Equal chance it could have put McDavid on the road to ruin. The organization wasn't going to take that risk and that is why he was unceremoniously moved in short order after the season was over. Like it or lump it.
 

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
43,587
14,946
Edmonton
The tired argument is that Hall would have magically done something here that his history up to the moment of the trade did not show. That with no external influence (like a trade of someone who felt untouchable) he would somehow evolve here into a better team player. all he needed was some snuggles from management and maybe bask in the light of McDavid just a little longer. When he was here his turnovers where untimely and costly, his "impressive" goal totals where in garbage time and his ability to influence the game was mostly negative.

Drai and hall clicked when drai first arrived on the scene because he was playing a simple north south game. After drai got comfortable in the NHL and his game went east west he no longer jived with halls straight forward one note rush game and everyone complained about how drai fell off at the end of the season. HE didn't fall off anything. His partner couldn't keep up with a more cerebral approach to the game and was always out of position to take the pass because it wasn't coming off the rush. Same reason McD and Hall didn't click. one plays with finesse the other approaches the game like a bull in a china shop. a cubic zirconia bull but a bull none the less.

Maybe the organization determined the return was less important than ridding themselves of the hall they had on their hands at the time of the trade and any return was going to work for them. I always thought they'd recognize the issue and unload him for a sack o cheeseburgers (cheese optional) so lars was a pretty decent win in my books.

Yes maybe those things you imagine would have happened, equally as probable was that as the core of the established culture tire fire on the team hall would have influenced McD who would begin to cheat for his offense and pay less attention to being defensively responsible then we could have let that culture vacuum suck our new captain down to that level instead of having him elevate the team to his. Yes another year may have saved hall here. Equal chance it could have put McDavid on the road to ruin. The organization wasn't going to take that risk and that is why he was unceremoniously moved in short order after the season was over. Like it or lump it.

lol at that last paragraph.

Enjoy living in whatever fantasy world that you and HK97 live in that Hall was some sort of evil boogeyman living under the Oilers bed. Not worth wasting time with this made up bullshit.
 

BigFuzzyDice

the giant Kane in your azz
Jul 8, 2016
1,742
2,056
lol at that last paragraph.

Enjoy living in whatever fantasy world that you and HK97 live in that Hall was some sort of evil boogeyman living under the Oilers bed. Not worth wasting time with this made up bull****.
the organization deciding to move his ass says differently. Which would suggest you're the one with the problem of living in a fantasy world.

Interestingly though the line about the hall oilers was "if hall is your best player you don't have a very good team" seems to still be true in jersey. They overachieved in their playoff run in my books. I didn't expect them to ever lead a game let alone win one.
 

Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
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the value would never have improved if the team didn't get the upgrade on defense though. We would not have made the playoffs last year, and Hall would have been second fiddle to McDavid and probably Draisaitl too.

There's just no way that Hall would have had the kind of season he had this year with the Devils if he stayed here. Not only is there that 2nd fiddle aspect here, the Devils had a great defense after they added Vatanen, along with other guys maturing.

It is, and always was a false notion that you needed to go out and get a an elite or shutdown D (which we didn't acquire in trade anyway) Vegas is testimony to how a team can be formed from the non protection list of other teams (i.e. players potentially available in trade) and what could come of it.

Ask yourself for instance what would it have cost to get McNabb from LA instead of them losing him outright, for nothing, to Vegas.

Now ask yourself how much difference there is between McNabb and Larsson.
 

Raoul Duke

Registered User
Feb 21, 2010
2,047
585
lol at that last paragraph.

Enjoy living in whatever fantasy world that you and HK97 live in that Hall was some sort of evil boogeyman living under the Oilers bed. Not worth wasting time with this made up bull****.

HK is a blast to read, highly entertaining, but there’s no point in engaging him.
His argument is purely hypothetical. Throwing facts and logic at it won’t work. There’s something personal at play.
It always comes back to Hall’s a cancer, wasn’t this good as an Oiler and was never going to be this good here.
The only thing quantifiable is if he was this good here and the numbers say he was.
He’ll even resort to the organization turfing him as proof he was bad, as if the organization hasn’t proven to put to lunch quite often.

What’s left of his argument is fan fiction.
 

Raoul Duke

Registered User
Feb 21, 2010
2,047
585
It is, and always was a false notion that you needed to go out and get a an elite or shutdown D (which we didn't acquire in trade anyway) Vegas is testimony to how a team can be formed from the non protection list of other teams (i.e. players potentially available in trade) and what could come of it.

Ask yourself for instance what would it have cost to get McNabb from LA instead of them losing him outright, for nothing, to Vegas.

Now ask yourself how much difference there is between McNabb and Larsson.

Grabbing someone like that wouldn’t have made room for Looch.

Besides many here will tell you the difference between Larsson and McNabb is astronomical.
 

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
43,587
14,946
Edmonton
It is, and always was a false notion that you needed to go out and get a an elite or shutdown D (which we didn't acquire in trade anyway) Vegas is testimony to how a team can be formed from the non protection list of other teams (i.e. players potentially available in trade) and what could come of it.

Ask yourself for instance what would it have cost to get McNabb from LA instead of them losing him outright, for nothing, to Vegas.

Now ask yourself how much difference there is between McNabb and Larsson.

A lot of teams look dumb in hindsight with what happened with Vegas. Just look at the Panthers. They traded Reilly Smith to the Vegas Knights for a 4th round pick and in doing so agreed to let the Knights take Marchessault in the expansion draft. It was done for salary purposes... but seriously, how the hell does that look now lol.

McNabb was a bottom pairing guy with Kings. It would be very difficult to argue with a straight face at the time that the Oilers should have acquired Brayden McNabb, a left shot 15 minute a night d-man on a non-playoff team, and protected him in the expansion draft. Doing so would have required the Oilers to either expose one of Klefbom or Larsson on defense or go to a 4+4 protection and leave a guy like Maroon or Eberle available. It would have been an insane suggestion at the time.

I agree with the premise of your post though. There are good d-men out there who are available every year. A shrewd GM needs to be able to identify guys who can come in and contribute beyond the cost it takes to acquire them.

Unfortunately Chiarelli is 0/2 on that front. Not only is he unable to identify the right "just needs a chance" guys he also pays through the nose for them.
 

MaxR11

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
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HK is a blast to read, highly entertaining, but there’s no point in engaging him.
His argument is purely hypothetical. Throwing facts and logic at it won’t work. There’s something personal at play.
It always comes back to Hall’s a cancer, wasn’t this good as an Oiler and was never going to be this good here.
The only thing quantifiable is if he was this good here and the numbers say he was.
He’ll even resort to the organization turfing him as proof he was bad, as if the organization hasn’t proven to put to lunch quite often.

What’s left of his argument is fan fiction.

just because something is "quantifiable" doesn't mean it's a true picture. it can fool people into thinking something is true when it isn't.

it's "quantifiable" by the city of edmonton studies that the slower you drive the less chance of death (ie 30km/hr playground zones) thus supposedly it's "the best thing" to make all residential areas 30k. but they don't take into account things like angry drivers that get pissed and speed past (on the oncoming lane) those driving the 30k speed limit, the drivers who are now texting while cruising at the much slower 30k speed when they wouldn't at 50k, the drivers who now zoom to 60-70k once they pass the 30k zone to make up for lost time. etc etc.

sorry, not sure where i was going with that.
 

MaxR11

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
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A lot of teams look dumb in hindsight with what happened with Vegas. Just look at the Panthers. They traded Reilly Smith to the Vegas Knights for a 4th round pick and in doing so agreed to let the Knights take Marchessault in the expansion draft. It was done for salary purposes... but seriously, how the hell does that look now lol.

McNabb was a bottom pairing guy with Kings. It would be very difficult to argue with a straight face at the time that the Oilers should have acquired Brayden McNabb, a left shot 15 minute a night d-man on a non-playoff team, and protected him in the expansion draft. Doing so would have required the Oilers to either expose one of Klefbom or Larsson on defense or go to a 4+4 protection and leave a guy like Maroon or Eberle available. It would have been an insane suggestion at the time.

I agree with the premise of your post though. There are good d-men out there who are available every year. A shrewd GM needs to be able to identify guys who can come in and contribute beyond the cost it takes to acquire them.

Unfortunately Chiarelli is 0/2 on that front. Not only is he unable to identify the right "just needs a chance" guys he also pays through the nose for them.

oversimplification. you can't assume mcnabb would do well if he was here. i wouldn't take him over larsson. the knights are a perfect example of how some intangible things lead to elevated overall play. these are players who were lower in the depth charts of an established team. they got the chance to move up and play a bigger role. much like wheeler wheen he went from boston to atlanta/winnipeg.

problem with your and many hall lovers thinking is "o the players is good now thus he would have been just as good if he was still on their original team". too simplistic and false thinking. so many factors go into players improving their play and get out of their stagnated development etc. a lot of times they need that new team, new environment, new role etc.
 

MoontoScott

Registered User
Jun 2, 2012
7,718
8,326
lol, hall is the only ne he throws shade at....



Taylor Hall obviously wouldn't win any popularity contestants with fellow NHL'ers but IIRC another massively talented Oiler winger, Glenn Anderson, wasn't very popular with fellow hockey players either.
 

Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
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A lot of teams look dumb in hindsight with what happened with Vegas. Just look at the Panthers. They traded Reilly Smith to the Vegas Knights for a 4th round pick and in doing so agreed to let the Knights take Marchessault in the expansion draft. It was done for salary purposes... but seriously, how the hell does that look now lol.

McNabb was a bottom pairing guy with Kings. It would be very difficult to argue with a straight face at the time that the Oilers should have acquired Brayden McNabb, a left shot 15 minute a night d-man on a non-playoff team, and protected him in the expansion draft. Doing so would have required the Oilers to either expose one of Klefbom or Larsson on defense or go to a 4+4 protection and leave a guy like Maroon or Eberle available. It would have been an insane suggestion at the time.

I agree with the premise of your post though. There are good d-men out there who are available every year. A shrewd GM needs to be able to identify guys who can come in and contribute beyond the cost it takes to acquire them.

Unfortunately Chiarelli is 0/2 on that front. Not only is he unable to identify the right "just needs a chance" guys he also pays through the nose for them.

McNabb is a 3-4 D on a lot of clubs. He's top 4 in Vegas. Of course LA has Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez so the guy would have to be miraculous, allstar material, to be any higher slotting in in LA. He did get a lot of top 4 assignments in LA and had two strong seasons prior to even last season. One year he had 25pts and without a lot of time on the PP. Last season McNabb was out afairc with injury and his absence hurt the Kings.

The Kings didn't want to lose McNabb outright. The talk was they wanted Vegas to pick Brown (could you imagine?) or Gaborik. Had the Knights picked Brown they would have looked like geniuses with his turnaround season but McNabb was no slouch.

What the Knights got immediately is a big mean moving traffic D with all kinds of Willy Mitchell game in him. He's a fierce competitor and balls up all the time. He was 26, seasoned NHL experience, ready to unpack. Buff/LA had done all the development years on the player.

Thing is that McNabb is just one of many key ingredients the Knights brought in who can certainly play hockey but can certainly intimidate as well. He's a bonecrusher with hits. tbh I liked him in LA more than Martinez. McNabb can really get in opponents heads. Even going at guys like Doughty and Kopitar.

But its just one story. Every D the Knights have came ready and able to play. Just solid additions.

Its kind of karma fitting that McNabb scored the series clinching only goal in the last game and Martinez did little but give up scoring chances as the weak link top 4 D defensively in LA. Always loved Brayden McNabb. My kind of D.

In anycase the Oilers would not have had to protect Larsson in my plan because Larsson would not be here, Hall would. That should go without saying. ;)
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
85,950
34,069
Taylor Hall obviously wouldn't win any popularity contestants with fellow NHL'ers but IIRC another massively talented Oiler winger, Glenn Anderson, wasn't very popular with fellow hockey players either.

Hall's problem is that he was touted as the next Messier so everyone assumed that he'd be a great leader, etc. but he wasn't that player. He tried to lead on the ice in the offensive zone but off of it it wasn't his forte.
 

Drivesaitl

Time to Drive
Oct 8, 2017
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Duck hunting
Hall's problem is that he was touted as the next Messier so everyone assumed that he'd be a great leader, etc. but he wasn't that player. He tried to lead on the ice in the offensive zone but off of it it wasn't his forte.

In fairness to Hall he was a MUCH better player than Mess early on in respective pro careers and Mark only unpacked his game to the degree that he did in the presence of greatness. Messier became a great player. He certainly wasn't one starting out. Mess did start pro career very early but in general guys matured quicker back then. Physically and otherwise. Mess had 2 years of pro experience in WHA in which he just was getting his feet wet and couldn't find traction. He then had 2 seasons in NHL with Oilers before he really hit his stride. Keeping in mind totals like 33-60pts were really pretty ordinary totals back then. His 5th pro season is when Mark hit his stride. Hall only played 6 here. Hall hit the ground running, at 18 he was night and day a better player than Mess. He was still at 20 as well.

If Hall had the allstar out of this world support on that club that Mark did who knows how good he would've been the whole time.

Hall had to do all the driving offense on this team. Mess never had to do that until Gretz was gone and even then had a stellar cast to work with here.
 

Supermassive

HISS, HISS
Feb 19, 2007
14,612
1,090
Sherwood Park
just because something is "quantifiable" doesn't mean it's a true picture. it can fool people into thinking something is true when it isn't.

it's "quantifiable" by the city of edmonton studies that the slower you drive the less chance of death (ie 30km/hr playground zones) thus supposedly it's "the best thing" to make all residential areas 30k. but they don't take into account things like angry drivers that get pissed and speed past (on the oncoming lane) those driving the 30k speed limit, the drivers who are now texting while cruising at the much slower 30k speed when they wouldn't at 50k, the drivers who now zoom to 60-70k once they pass the 30k zone to make up for lost time. etc etc.

sorry, not sure where i was going with that.

You were trying to disprove the quantifiable by use of the unprovable.

Don’t worry, you’re still exactly in your element.
 

oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
22,936
17,813
Hall's problem is that he was touted as the next Messier so everyone assumed that he'd be a great leader, etc. but he wasn't that player. He tried to lead on the ice in the offensive zone but off of it it wasn't his forte.

I think Lowe has a very twisted view at what makes a winning culture. I think Lowe truly believes that when he was a young guy in the NHL his pure winning winner awesomeness helped create a winning culture out of thin air for the Oilers. Lowe/Tambo and the gang seriously believed that just tossing Hall into a room full of loser culture was going to create something similar to what the OIlers had int he 80's, and they probably even resented Hall for it not happening, hence their leak to Dreger late in Rebuild 2.0 about how Hall "wasn't what they thought he would be".

The guys running this team just didn't get it, the need for good contributing vets being leaders in the room, the need for an NHL quality supporting cast (which they had zero idea how to build). I think Chia does get it a little more, at least he played a part in creating something more recent than the 80's, but it's come at a heavy price for Chia to try to remake what he had in Boston.
 

McAsuno

Registered User
Jul 10, 2013
26,458
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Edmonton
well, Hall did make the playoffs.
proved he was legit, now you look the fool.

LOL in you thinking he's throwing shade at Hall.

Kessel looked like he was just having fun, anyways. Not sure where the "shade" would be either. If there's any shades in regards to Kessel, it would have to be with how badly the leafs media treated him. Hall did carry the devils to the playoffs, so HK's typical crap gets shut down once again. Just another thing added to HK's bag of crap.
 

MaxR11

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
4,991
1,709
well, Hall did make the playoffs.
proved he was legit, now you look the fool.

LOL in you thinking he's throwing shade at Hall.

i know hall made the playoffs you mook. point is he's not a well liked individual.... and there's a reason for that.

wow, give your head a shake if you think that's not shade.
 

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