"Why The Leafs Suck And How They Can Be Fixed" By Al Strachan

[Duke Silver]

Very easy my freind. Quinn 1st year in this organization he was just the coach with Mike Smith as GM and it was Mike Smith who put together a young team that made it to the conference final that lost to Buffalo. Since that time and Mike Smith stepping down as GM because of his wife's illness to cancer Quinn went and gutted what was a young team into an over the hill team that lacked any kind of youthful legs to have long playoff runs.

Moves like Modin who went on to be an allstar PF with Tampa for Corey Cross, putting Steve Sullivan on wavers to sign Kristich when Boston walked away from his arb. win boy were they ever right to walk away and Steve Sullivan would have been a nice piece don't you think after all he only average almost the same point a game average as Sundin once he left T.O. Trading a young shut down D man in Jason Smyth for nothing at all but no problem Dave Manson Belak were great on D, trading what was 1 half of a damn good shut down pair in Markov and Berzin for Reichel and Renburgh, treating the farm system with a complete neglect where it was known as a prospect graveyard and of course the great injury prone Owen Nolan trade.

Quinn did a piss poor job as GM of this team the only reason why his teams made the playoffs was because of 2 names Curtis Joseph and Ed Belfour. Just think with the great goaltending the Leafs had in the Quinn era if they stayed course with that young team that made it to the conference final what the team would have done instead of watching the over the hill gang play injured in the playoffs all those years that went nowhere because they were TOO OLD and TOO BANGED UP.

Not only was Quinn the reason why the Leafs weren't good enough to win the cup in his era as GM he's the reason why after the lock out the team has been 1 big mess.

THANK YOU.

Some people here are so starved for success that any shred of it is overblown, and players/personnel have statues erected for them despite a series of careless moves that resulted in a decimation of our future assets collection. Quinn's mantra as GM was win-now-at-all-costs and, aside from 2002, it sure did cost us.

 

[mulebreath]

Very easy my freind. Quinn 1st year in this organization he was just the coach with Mike Smith as GM and it was Mike Smith who put together a young team that made it to the conference final that lost to Buffalo. Since that time and Mike Smith stepping down as GM because of his wife's illness to cancer Quinn went and gutted what was a young team into an over the hill team that lacked any kind of youthful legs to have long playoff runs.

Moves like Modin who went on to be an allstar PF with Tampa for Corey Cross, putting Steve Sullivan on wavers to sign Kristich when Boston walked away from his arb. win boy were they ever right to walk away and Steve Sullivan would have been a nice piece don't you think after all he only average almost the same point a game average as Sundin once he left T.O. Trading a young shut down D man in Jason Smyth for nothing at all but no problem Dave Manson Belak were great on D, trading what was 1 half of a damn good shut down pair in Markov and Berzin for Reichel and Renburgh, treating the farm system with a complete neglect where it was known as a prospect graveyard and of course the great injury prone Owen Nolan trade.

Quinn did a piss poor job as GM of this team the only reason why his teams made the playoffs was because of 2 names Curtis Joseph and Ed Belfour. Just think with the great goaltending the Leafs had in the Quinn era if they stayed course with that young team that made it to the conference final what the team would have done instead of watching the over the hill gang play injured in the playoffs all those years that went nowhere because they were TOO OLD and TOO BANGED UP.

Not only was Quinn the reason why the Leafs weren't good enough to win the cup in his era as GM he's the reason why after the lock out the team has been 1 big mess.

That's a great history lesson on Quinn's GM record. I don't think Berezin and Markov did much after they left TO (?) but he sure did squander the nice return Fletcher got in the Gilmour trade. Smith was a young tough dman with great leadership ability and he let him go for a song after one bad season. Putting Sullivan on waivers, the Hawks sure appreciated it, only Quinn would be able to explain that one. And the third member of the tandem (McCauley) didn't have much good to say about his coaching once he reached SJ (but others loved Quinn as a coach). Kristich, Renburg, Cross, Reichel were all disasters but then Tucker and Belfour were obviously good pickups. World class goaltending can sure cover a lot of warts. His record is definitely a mixed bag but obviously not stellar.

 

[Pyrophorus]

His bottom line reasoning for why the tanking approach doesnt work was that 'if you're lucky enough to get four first overall picks, by the time you're ready to contend, all four will be making max salaries and the rest of the team will suck.' I think he tried to make good points but ended up talking out his ass for the second half of the whole freakin book.

I saw the book, this was the only part I read.

 

[pucky]

That's a great history lesson on Quinn's GM record. I don't think Berezin and Markov did much after they left TO (?) but he sure did squander the nice return Fletcher got in the Gilmour trade. Smith was a young tough dman with great leadership ability and he let him go for a song after one bad season. Putting Sullivan on waivers, the Hawks sure appreciated it, only Quinn would be able to explain that one. And the third member of the tandem (McCauley) didn't have much good to say about his coaching once he reached SJ (but others loved Quinn as a coach). Kristich, Renburg, Cross, Reichel were all disasters but then Tucker and Belfour were obviously good pickups. World class goaltending can sure cover a lot of warts. His record is definitely a mixed bag but obviously not stellar.

I agree as well.

Dimi78's points were solid and I've thought the same thing through that era.

Quinn was horrible and the fiasco of that situation was made worse by the horrible deals. If Sullivan, Smith and McCauley were kept, they would have had some decent players. Modin et al. were not given enough credit and they weren't patient enough with them but the Leafs stayed with guys like Cross, Belak and Berg for so long. Antropov? It made no sense. They gave up early on their better players but kept the pylons way past their due date.

The bad decisions and horrible judgments that this Franchise makes is astounding. It's like they go looking around for the worse managers.

 

[exporta]

Why must you be such a dick about things? There's no need to get so personal and scathing in your replies. The Bill O'Reilly approach of shouting down your opponents rarely leads to civilized discussion.

My entire point was that we went into the lockout with a bare prospect cupboard because of Quinn's rental moves. It was only a matter of time for the bubble to burst on this team's ability to compete, as our core was gradually aging and becoming less effective. Quinn failed to foresee this inevitability.

Quinn's moves at the trade deadline stripped away the future from this club. The Nolan trade has been viewed by many as one of the worst in our history. We lost our first round pick in the 2003 draft, quite possibly the deepest 1st round in NHL history, and Brad Boyes, whose 26 goals in the first year post-lockout could have really helped us get those measly two points that escaped us in our playoff hunt that year. Meanwhile, Nolan chipped in two assists in a 7-game first round loss to the Flyers in 2003. Fantastic dividends on that trade!

You evaluate trades years down the road, and the Nolan deal brought us no closer to the cup. Much like how Chiarelli in Boston is getting crucified for the Kaberle trade, Quinn's moves did not pan out in his favour. The only difference here is that the Bruins had the prospect depth to be able to make such a move, a luxury the Leafs did not have at the time. And it hurt us for years down the road.

No offence, but the lockout hurt us more than those trades. Maybe it was bas foresight, as everyone knew the players weren't going to win and their would be a salary cap but to blame a GM for making that deal to acquire a legit power forward for a playoff run didn't ruin our future.

Losing Leetch, Nolan, Niewyndyk, Roberts and Mogilny due to the cap ruined our future. We were close, and if I were in that position again I would have no problem trading late round 1st's for immediate help if we thought we were close.

Sure Boyes for Nolan was one sided, but the belief was Nolan would have been around for a few years - not just two seasons.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Very easy my freind. Quinn 1st year in this organization he was just the coach with Mike Smith as GM and it was Mike Smith who put together a young team that made it to the conference final that lost to Buffalo. Since that time and Mike Smith stepping down as GM because of his wife's illness to cancer Quinn went and gutted what was a young team into an over the hill team that lacked any kind of youthful legs to have long playoff runs.

Moves like Modin who went on to be an allstar PF with Tampa for Corey Cross, putting Steve Sullivan on wavers to sign Kristich when Boston walked away from his arb. win boy were they ever right to walk away and Steve Sullivan would have been a nice piece don't you think after all he only average almost the same point a game average as Sundin once he left T.O. Trading a young shut down D man in Jason Smyth for nothing at all but no problem Dave Manson Belak were great on D, trading what was 1 half of a damn good shut down pair in Markov and Berzin for Reichel and Renburgh, treating the farm system with a complete neglect where it was known as a prospect graveyard and of course the great injury prone Owen Nolan trade.

Quinn did a piss poor job as GM of this team the only reason why his teams made the playoffs was because of 2 names Curtis Joseph and Ed Belfour. Just think with the great goaltending the Leafs had in the Quinn era if they stayed course with that young team that made it to the conference final what the team would have done instead of watching the over the hill gang play injured in the playoffs all those years that went nowhere because they were TOO OLD and TOO BANGED UP.

Not only was Quinn the reason why the Leafs weren't good enough to win the cup in his era as GM he's the reason why after the lock out the team has been 1 big mess.

That's pretty funny. I guess you didn't know that Jason Smith was traded by the Mike Smith regime and not Pat Quinn and that Steve Sullivan asked to be traded and didn't want to be on the Leafs. Markov had a lot of problems.

That young team that you think was going to be great would have been routinely pummeled.

 

[topched]

That's pretty funny. I guess you didn't know that Jason Smith was traded by the Mike Smith regime and not Pat Quinn and that Steve Sullivan asked to be traded and didn't want to be on the Leafs. Markov had a lot of problems.

That young team that you think was going to be great would have been routinely pummeled.

Agree completely. You just can't argue with Quinn's success. He GM'd to favour his coaching style, got guys that he wanted to coach, and who he thought would fit well with the team's age, talent level etc.

That team in 98' was in way over its head and was completely carried by Cujo. They had no ability to last longterm. You mentioned all those moves but you also forgot Quinn's moves to bring in Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Mogilny, Svehla, Nieuwendyk and countless other guys who for the most part ended up being mainstays on this team right through to the lockout.

His ability to coach and deal with veteran players was exceptional, he knew that he wasn't in the position to develop young players, and preferred to trade them for established veterans. Many of the guys who ended up joining the leafs like Belfour, Nieuwendyk, and Nolan loved Quinn's job at the 2002 Olympics and wished to come here because of that.

If mistakes were made to cripple this team they were made by JFJ during 05 and 06. He had countless number of veterans retire or disappear during that year, and the ones he had he resigned to new deals. Once he realized that these guys were not going to be able to perform the way they were pre lockout he ended up going the quick fix route instead using the veterans he had to acquire picks and prospects. (This was influenced by the bigwigs at MLSE however) He ended up signing the Oneill's Allisons and Lindros' that caused this team to perform well but not well enough to get into the playoffs, sacrificing high draft picks in crucial years. He also ended up making moves like the Raycroft and Toskala ones that only ended up putting this team further into debt.

Look at the macrocosm of his tenure and not just a tiny piece of it. All those years of straight playoffs, with multiple trips to the CF's show that each and every year this team was a contender that needed a little extra push to get over the top.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Agree completely. You just can't argue with Quinn's success. He GM'd to favour his coaching style, got guys that he wanted to coach, and who he thought would fit well with the team's age, talent level etc.

That team in 98' was in way over its head and was completely carried by Cujo. They had no ability to last longterm. You mentioned all those moves but you also forgot Quinn's moves to bring in Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Mogilny, Svehla, Nieuwendyk and countless other guys who for the most part ended up being mainstays on this team right through to the lockout.

His ability to coach and deal with veteran players was exceptional, he knew that he wasn't in the position to develop young players, and preferred to trade them for established veterans. Many of the guys who ended up joining the leafs like Belfour, Nieuwendyk, and Nolan loved Quinn's job at the 2002 Olympics and wished to come here because of that.

If mistakes were made to cripple this team they were made by JFJ during 05 and 06. He had countless number of veterans retire or disappear during that year, and the ones he had he resigned to new deals. Once he realized that these guys were not going to be able to perform the way they were pre lockout he ended up going the quick fix route instead using the veterans he had to acquire picks and prospects. (This was influenced by the bigwigs at MLSE however) He ended up signing the Oneill's Allisons and Lindros' that caused this team to perform well but not well enough to get into the playoffs, sacrificing high draft picks in crucial years. He also ended up making moves like the Raycroft and Toskala ones that only ended up putting this team further into debt.

Look at the macrocosm of his tenure and not just a tiny piece of it. All those years of straight playoffs, with multiple trips to the CF's show that each and every year this team was a contender that needed a little extra push to get over the top.

It was nice back in those days to not even be concerned about whether the Leafs would be in the playoffs.

Quinn's years can be described in a nutshell as Toronto, Ottawa and Philadelphia beating the crap out of one another in the playoffs while some other team took advantage of whoever survived.

I think that after Quinn wasn't GM any longer Peddie took more responsibility, he was probably afraid of Pat, and the results spoke for themselves.

 

[topched]

It was nice back in those days to not even be concerned about whether the Leafs would be in the playoffs.

Quinn's years can be described in a nutshell as Toronto, Ottawa and Philadelphia beating the crap out of one another in the playoffs while some other team took advantage of whoever survived.

I think that after Quinn wasn't GM any longer Peddie took more responsibility, he was probably afraid of Pat, and the results spoke for themselves.

So true.

I always thought that MLSE should have moved Quinn to the front office and have him hire a new coach. Always made the most sense to me, he was and still is a great hockey mind.

 

[pucky]

That's pretty funny. I guess you didn't know that Jason Smith was traded by the Mike Smith regime and not Pat Quinn and that Steve Sullivan asked to be traded and didn't want to be on the Leafs. Markov had a lot of problems.

That young team that you think was going to be great would have been routinely pummeled.

Who cares? It was Quinn that had the most power and he eventually took both jobs. He didn't want J. Smith. He wanted veterans and a bunch of guys who were physical and not the variety who were good at defensive play compared to those who were big and bulky. This is the same guy that routinely went to guys like Cory Cross, Aki Berg, Jrkke Lumme and a horde of other lanky dmen with no talent. If he wanted Jason Smith, he never would have been traded.

This is yet ANOTHER example of Leaf fans making excuses for managers/coaches they like without providing suitable evidence. It's called bias and it's really sad. I am not sure why Leaf fans idolize coaches and managers that have ruined the teams at various stages. It's bewildering...

 

[pucky]

That's pretty funny. I guess you didn't know that Jason Smith was traded by the Mike Smith regime and not Pat Quinn and that Steve Sullivan asked to be traded and didn't want to be on the Leafs. Markov had a lot of problems.

That young team that you think was going to be great would have been routinely pummeled.

Agree completely. You just can't argue with Quinn's success. He GM'd to favour his coaching style, got guys that he wanted to coach, and who he thought would fit well with the team's age, talent level etc.

That team in 98' was in way over its head and was completely carried by Cujo. They had no ability to last longterm. You mentioned all those moves but you also forgot Quinn's moves to bring in Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Mogilny, Svehla, Nieuwendyk and countless other guys who for the most part ended up being mainstays on this team right through to the lockout.

His ability to coach and deal with veteran players was exceptional, he knew that he wasn't in the position to develop young players, and preferred to trade them for established veterans. Many of the guys who ended up joining the leafs like Belfour, Nieuwendyk, and Nolan loved Quinn's job at the 2002 Olympics and wished to come here because of that.

If mistakes were made to cripple this team they were made by JFJ during 05 and 06. He had countless number of veterans retire or disappear during that year, and the ones he had he resigned to new deals. Once he realized that these guys were not going to be able to perform the way they were pre lockout he ended up going the quick fix route instead using the veterans he had to acquire picks and prospects. (This was influenced by the bigwigs at MLSE however) He ended up signing the Oneill's Allisons and Lindros' that caused this team to perform well but not well enough to get into the playoffs, sacrificing high draft picks in crucial years. He also ended up making moves like the Raycroft and Toskala ones that only ended up putting this team further into debt.

Look at the macrocosm of his tenure and not just a tiny piece of it. All those years of straight playoffs, with multiple trips to the CF's show that each and every year this team was a contender that needed a little extra push to get over the top.

Quinn's positives were far outweighed by the screwups and JFJ proceeded to make things worse. Those two didn't get along as far as I hear so it was a really screwed up relationship. For Quinn to just go after veterans is also a foolish strategy. He just wanted basically anyone who was experienced and it didn't matter about chemistry or if the guy is over the hill or slowing down. The defense cores were always abysmal since he traded the best dmen away. Or had other GMs do it.

Sure, the forwards were ok but never nothing special. The forwards had always played their best or had their best years on other teams. The Leafs just recycled and traded away high draft picks to get these players. Then you had injuries hit some of these players.... great! Don't get me wrong, I liked the 'Sundin/Mogilny' years but the Leafs never did what was necessary to improve whatever Quinn/Smith/JFJ built. They refused to look at the weaknesses and address them.

Then they would bring over too many goons rather than skill. How long was Domi a Leaf?!?

It's too bad that the good pickups were always cancelled out by the most ridiculous of decisions. The Leafs relied way too much on goalies (Potvin, Joseph, Belfour et al.) and chose to disregard the weakness and lack of talent at key positions (especially D but also at forward as the Leafs were essentially a one line team most of the time).

 

[mulebreath]

That's pretty funny. I guess you didn't know that Jason Smith was traded by the Mike Smith regime and not Pat Quinn and that Steve Sullivan asked to be traded and didn't want to be on the Leafs. Markov had a lot of problems.

That young team that you think was going to be great would have been routinely pummeled.

My bad also for the crappy memory and false info, it was M Smith who traded J Smith. J Smith was having a rotten season and was it not then that Quinn pushed M Smith into making that trade? I seem to remember Quinn having a big part in that fiasco but maybe not. It was a terrible giveaway by one or both.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Who cares? It was Quinn that had the most power and he eventually took both jobs. He didn't want J. Smith. He wanted veterans and a bunch of guys who were physical and not the variety who were good at defensive play compared to those who were big and bulky. This is the same guy that routinely went to guys like Cory Cross, Aki Berg, Jrkke Lumme and a horde of other lanky dmen with no talent. If he wanted Jason Smith, he never would have been traded.

This is yet ANOTHER example of Leaf fans making excuses for managers/coaches they like without providing suitable evidence. It's called bias and it's really sad. I am not sure why Leaf fans idolize coaches and managers that have ruined the teams at various stages. It's bewildering...

The stupidity is needing to defend a stretch of 6 seasons where the Leafs averaged 98 points per year.

What I heard was that Quinn was upset that Smith was traded, not that he was the big loss that some people make him out to be anyhow.

 

[pucky]

The stupidity is needing to defend a stretch of 6 seasons where the Leafs averaged 98 points per year.

What I heard was that Quinn was upset that Smith was traded, not that he was the big loss that some people make him out to be anyhow.

That doesn't make any sense. Where is the source?

I recall that Smith was struggling so Quinn started benching him. Soon after, he was dealt. Jason Smith was their best dman at the time and had come over from a rigid defensive system, namely the NJ Devils. It was a no-brainer that this guy would be good and for the Leafs to have a decent dman, it was great. I thought the Gilmour trade was good even though Gilmour is loved by Toronto. Then they ruined the trade by getting rid of Smith and Sullivan. If Sullivan wanted out, then that speaks volumes how Toronto operates and how they run their team.

Btw, I had a dish at the time and would watch Devils games. One could easily tell that Smith would develop into a decent dman. He might have struggled a bit there too but he was young. I believe the Devils wanted a shakeup and some experience plus Gilmour's abilities so they went after Gilmour and it took the youngsters to get the deal done. It was a good trade for Toronto and one of the few times they got some talented young guys back for some veterans. Again, they had no patience and got rid of most of them (2/3rds anyway).

 

[Northern Dancer]

Who cares? It was Quinn that had the most power and he eventually took both jobs. He didn't want J. Smith. He wanted veterans and a bunch of guys who were physical and not the variety who were good at defensive play compared to those who were big and bulky. This is the same guy that routinely went to guys like Cory Cross, Aki Berg, Jrkke Lumme and a horde of other lanky dmen with no talent. If he wanted Jason Smith, he never would have been traded.

This is yet ANOTHER example of Leaf fans making excuses for managers/coaches they like without providing suitable evidence. It's called bias and it's really sad. I am not sure why Leaf fans idolize coaches and managers that have ruined the teams at various stages. It's bewildering...

Leaf defence at the time of the trade:

Sylvain Cote
Dimitri Yuskevich
Alexamder Karpotsov
Tomas Kaberle
Daniel Markov
Bryan Berard
Yanick Trembley
Dallas Eakins
Jason Smith

No doubt with hindsight he should have been kept but at the time he was doing an awful lot of bench warming.

 

[topched]

That doesn't make any sense. Where is the source?

I recall that Smith was struggling so Quinn started benching him. Soon after, he was dealt. Jason Smith was their best dman at the time and had come over from a rigid defensive system, namely the NJ Devils. It was a no-brainer that this guy would be good and for the Leafs to have a decent dman, it was great. I thought the Gilmour trade was good even though Gilmour is loved by Toronto. Then they ruined the trade by getting rid of Smith and Sullivan. If Sullivan wanted out, then that speaks volumes how Toronto operates and how they run their team.

Btw, I had a dish at the time and would watch Devils games. One could easily tell that Smith would develop into a decent dman. He might have struggled a bit there too but he was young. I believe the Devils wanted a shakeup and some experience plus Gilmour's abilities so they went after Gilmour and it took the youngsters to get the deal done. It was a good trade for Toronto and one of the few times they got some talented young guys back for some veterans. Again, they had no patience and got rid of most of them (2/3rds anyway).

This doesn't really make any difference at all. At the end of the day after Smith and Sullivan were moved the leafs went on to 4 Conference Semi Finals and another Conference finals in the following years. They clearly didn't need those two to win, and if you're suggesting that those two would be what put the team over the top, answer me the question of how many cups Jason Smith and Steve Sullivan have won?

Anything Pat Quinn did had no bearing on the team now. They were doing just fine until MLSE felt the need to bring in JFJ so they could control the day to day operations of the team even more tightly. He put together a solid team that finished in the top quarter of the league every year and challenged for the cup year in and year out. Any mistakes that were made in regards to the future of this team and the last 5 years is in the hands of John Ferguson Jr. He is the one who traded away first rounders for talent that didn't pan out. He misjudged the talent level of a veteran squad and ended up moving 1st rounders and prospects for immediate help. He's the one who drafted Jiri Tlusty during a 2006 draft where 50% of the league got an all-star calibre player. Quinn's tenure had no bearing on the fate of the franchise at this point in time.

 

[mooseOAK*]

That doesn't make any sense. Where is the source?

I recall that Smith was struggling so Quinn started benching him. Soon after, he was dealt. Jason Smith was their best dman at the time and had come over from a rigid defensive system, namely the NJ Devils. It was a no-brainer that this guy would be good and for the Leafs to have a decent dman, it was great. I thought the Gilmour trade was good even though Gilmour is loved by Toronto. Then they ruined the trade by getting rid of Smith and Sullivan. If Sullivan wanted out, then that speaks volumes how Toronto operates and how they run their team.

Btw, I had a dish at the time and would watch Devils games. One could easily tell that Smith would develop into a decent dman. He might have struggled a bit there too but he was young. I believe the Devils wanted a shakeup and some experience plus Gilmour's abilities so they went after Gilmour and it took the youngsters to get the deal done. It was a good trade for Toronto and one of the few times they got some talented young guys back for some veterans. Again, they had no patience and got rid of most of them (2/3rds anyway).

It would have been a heck of a bad situation to let a 22 year old who never did anything run the team. But that what happens when you trade at the deadline, you get players that the other team can do without.

You can save the Jason Smith rant if we ever have a discussion about Mike Smith.

 

[mulebreath]

This doesn't really make any difference at all. At the end of the day after Smith and Sullivan were moved the leafs went on to 4 Conference Semi Finals and another Conference finals in the following years. They clearly didn't need those two to win, and if you're suggesting that those two would be what put the team over the top, answer me the question of how many cups Jason Smith and Steve Sullivan have won?

Anything Pat Quinn did had no bearing on the team now. They were doing just fine until MLSE felt the need to bring in JFJ so they could control the day to day operations of the team even more tightly. He put together a solid team that finished in the top quarter of the league every year and challenged for the cup year in and year out. Any mistakes that were made in regards to the future of this team and the last 5 years is in the hands of John Ferguson Jr. He is the one who traded away first rounders for talent that didn't pan out. He misjudged the talent level of a veteran squad and ended up moving 1st rounders and prospects for immediate help. He's the one who drafted Jiri Tlusty during a 2006 draft where 75% of the league got an all-star calibre player. Quinn's tenure had no bearing on the fate of the franchise at this point in time.

You can blame JFJ for a lot of things but the Tlusty pick? The Leafs got him at #13 and he was pretty much top 10 in central scouting. Tlusty was highly rated by a lot of scouts beside JFJ.

 

[topched]

You can blame JFJ for a lot of things but the Tlusty pick? The Leafs got him at #13 and he was pretty much top 10 in central scouting. Tlusty was highly rated by a lot of scouts beside JFJ.

I'm not blaming him per se... but I am putting that on him during his tenure. I realize that JFJ was in charge of far more than just that, and the scouting staff likely had the most to do with the pick. Not to mention the fact that before he was an Assistant GM with St Louis he was a scout for the Sens and the Blues.

Its just another thing to pile on to the list of **** that happened with this team during the years from 2005-2008. Trying to point out that it was that time frame that set this team back and not the successful, contending years that happened before that.

BTW: I HATED that pick. Anyone else with me? I wanted Chris Stewart at the time!

Here's the 06 pre draft info in case anyone wants to take a look:
http://www.insidecollegehockey.com/7Archives/Draft/2006/predraft_ranks0436.htm

 

[Northern Dancer]

You can blame JFJ for a lot of things but the Tlusty pick? The Leafs got him at #13 and he was pretty much top 10 in central scouting. Tlusty was highly rated by a lot of scouts beside JFJ.

So your saying that a handful of teams were smart enough to let him slide to # 13 but jfj jr got duped.

 

[mulebreath]

So your saying that a handful of teams were smart enough to let him slide to # 13 but jfj jr got duped.

I'm just saying that when you look at a history of first round picks, there are quite a lot who don't pan out, it's not an exact science, how many scouts "really" knew at the time that Tlusty wouldn't pan out?

Cam Fowler was rated #4 last year and slipped to #12. Rangers passed on Fowler and picked a player at #10 that wasn't even rated in the first round. Is Sather smarter than everybody else or an idiot? JFJ didn't pull a stunt like that, he picked a guy rated top 10, maybe all the guys that work in central scouting aren't all that smart.

 

[Faltorvo]

Just bad because I'm sure there are a few trades that if JFJ had had full control (assuming he didn't like its been said), this organization could look alot brighter. The rask trade likely doesn't happen, nor does the toskala one. ALong with many others of course.

I really dont think JFJ is to blame too much for the years that he was GM. Its been so clear for a while that Management hired him because he was young, inexperienced, and could be molded into the GM that they wanted. Unfortunately they turned that 5 year period into a fiasco that could't be fixed, and has tacked on another 3-4 years to the franchise's woes.

Nice that we finally have a guy (and a management team around him) that has focus and direction. They're dont have to have the economic interests of the club in mind when making hockey decisions. Its impossible to focus on building a tema for the long term while maximizing profits by making the playoffs in the short term, just doesnt work.



I dont think Burke has any pressure whatsoever. He is President and GM, he has not conflicts and pressure, the job is his.

I think he simply misjudged the talent on the roster. He believed that they were good enough to make the playoffs (or at least contend for a spot) when he took over, and thats why he made the Kessel deal. And in all honesty if the leafs finish like they did this year in 09-10 noone blinks an eye and says it was a fine deal.

Once he realized how the players on the roster were actually regressing and there was no light at the end of the tunnel he had to overhaul the greater part of the roster and bring in some different players.

Plan is still in motion, we'll see how it goes.

Don't kid yourself, the rules have not changed,BB is under the same guidlines as JFJ.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Don't kid yourself, the rules have not changed,BB is under the same guidlines as JFJ.

One is President and GM and one was GM.

You're welcome.

 

[Gatorade*]

Don't kid yourself, the rules have not changed,BB is under the same guidlines as JFJ.

Burke said this in his opening press conference. There is really no debate. His goal was not to rebuild but to be a playoff team immediately and I am sure that won over MLSE execs. Of course he has had to back peddle since then.

JFJ was forced to do the same thing. So far neither GM has been able to do what their boss has asked them to do.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Burke said this in his opening press conference. There is really no debate. His goal was not to rebuild but to be a playoff team immediately and I am sure that won over MLSE execs. Of course he has had to back peddle since then.

JFJ was forced to do the same thing. So far neither GM has been able to do what their boss has asked them to do.

Then why did all of that cap money go unspent last season? An immediate timetable would result in spending every dollar available wouldn't it? Where are all of the trades for short term benefit?