"Why The Leafs Suck And How They Can Be Fixed" By Al Strachan

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Kings of Komarov

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Oct 28, 2010
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Quinn was a major reason why this team has been so awful for so long. Not as big a reason as JFJ and his moves, but he left JFJ with a very bare cupboard of prospects because of his propensity to trade good young players for aging veterans.

Ya, he was also responsible for leading us to the conference final, twice. And we never missed the playoffs.
 

hockeyfanz*

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Ya, he was also responsible for leading us to the conference final, twice. And we never missed the playoffs.

Agreed.

I dont understand how people can diss the most successful GM/Coach the team has seen since 67 (the Fletcher/Burns era was also a great team)...People ***** about Quinn trading number one picks AT THE DEADLINE knowing full well that the picks would be low first rounders. And to acquire top notch talent..I remember when he acquired Brian Leetch...the buzz in this town was remarkable (NOBODY was criticizing him then) and when he acquired Owen Nolan (it was a stroke of genius at the time)...we know now both guys didn't really pan out...Quinn had great veteran laden teams with multiple 100 point seasons, two Conference finals and one loss came to the eventual cup champs...

Quinn was great with the fans, media and his players...Quinn only missed the playoffs one year (the year he was fired)...Pat Quinn was a classy smart hockey man....I don't know where fans get off saying he left the team in a mess.
 

Duke Silver

Truce?
Jun 4, 2008
8,610
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Ya, he was also responsible for leading us to the conference final, twice. And we never missed the playoffs.

And where has it gotten us now?

Quinn made so many rental moves that it destroyed our ability to compete in the post-lockout era. So many first round picks lost. Brad Boyes, lost. I can go on..

People are so desperate to make the playoffs that it clouds their judgment.
 

hockeyfanz*

Guest
And where has it gotten us now?

Quinn made so many rental moves that it destroyed our ability to compete in the post-lockout era. So many first round picks lost. Brad Boyes, lost. I can go on..

People are so desperate to make the playoffs that it clouds their judgment.

Thats simply false and a dumb statement..The Leafs have been crap post-lockout and had every opportunity to clean house and draft draft draft...(call it the old tank philosophy if you will) They didn't..They raced to make the playoffs every single year since the lockout. Blaming the guy who brought this team closer to the Cup than anyone before him is idiotic. Brad Boyes? Yeah sure. Thats why the Leafs were pathetic all these years.

You know the part where you say "I could go on and on"....thank you for sparing us.
 

mooseOAK*

Guest
And where has it gotten us now?

Quinn made so many rental moves that it destroyed our ability to compete in the post-lockout era. So many first round picks lost. Brad Boyes, lost. I can go on..

People are so desperate to make the playoffs that it clouds their judgment.
Brad Boyes is going to be 30 next year and has yet to help any team win a playoff game.

I can hardly wait for the Leafs next playoff rental trade.
 

Duke Silver

Truce?
Jun 4, 2008
8,610
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Thats simply false and a dumb statement..The Leafs have been crap post-lockout and had every opportunity to clean house and draft draft draft...(call it the old tank philosophy if you will) They didn't..They raced to make the playoffs every single year since the lockout. Blaming the guy who brought this team closer to the Cup than anyone before him is idiotic. Brad Boyes? Yeah sure. Thats why the Leafs were pathetic all these years.

You know the part where you say "I could go on and on"....thank you for sparing us.

Why must you be such a dick about things? There's no need to get so personal and scathing in your replies. The Bill O'Reilly approach of shouting down your opponents rarely leads to civilized discussion.

My entire point was that we went into the lockout with a bare prospect cupboard because of Quinn's rental moves. It was only a matter of time for the bubble to burst on this team's ability to compete, as our core was gradually aging and becoming less effective. Quinn failed to foresee this inevitability.

Quinn's moves at the trade deadline stripped away the future from this club. The Nolan trade has been viewed by many as one of the worst in our history. We lost our first round pick in the 2003 draft, quite possibly the deepest 1st round in NHL history, and Brad Boyes, whose 26 goals in the first year post-lockout could have really helped us get those measly two points that escaped us in our playoff hunt that year. Meanwhile, Nolan chipped in two assists in a 7-game first round loss to the Flyers in 2003. Fantastic dividends on that trade!

You evaluate trades years down the road, and the Nolan deal brought us no closer to the cup. Much like how Chiarelli in Boston is getting crucified for the Kaberle trade, Quinn's moves did not pan out in his favour. The only difference here is that the Bruins had the prospect depth to be able to make such a move, a luxury the Leafs did not have at the time. And it hurt us for years down the road.
 

daveleaf

#FIREKEEFE #MIGHTBETIMETOFIRESHANNYTOO
Mar 23, 2010
5,857
538
Canada
Agreed.

I dont understand how people can diss the most successful GM/Coach the team has seen since 67 (the Fletcher/Burns era was also a great team)...People ***** about Quinn trading number one picks AT THE DEADLINE knowing full well that the picks would be low first rounders. And to acquire top notch talent..I remember when he acquired Brian Leetch...the buzz in this town was remarkable (NOBODY was criticizing him then) and when he acquired Owen Nolan (it was a stroke of genius at the time)...we know now both guys didn't really pan out...Quinn had great veteran laden teams with multiple 100 point seasons, two Conference finals and one loss came to the eventual cup champs...

Quinn was great with the fans, media and his players...Quinn only missed the playoffs one year (the year he was fired)...Pat Quinn was a classy smart hockey man....I don't know where fans get off saying he left the team in a mess.

You are right but correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't the Leetch deal and Francis deal made by JFJ? I thought it was. Nonetheless Quinn deserves much more respect. He, along with Fletch made this town significant again.
 

daveleaf

#FIREKEEFE #MIGHTBETIMETOFIRESHANNYTOO
Mar 23, 2010
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For a bunch of you who cares what they traded away at the trade deadline to make a push. They were a player away or two for many years but unfortunately had some bad luck. Nolan got hurt, Gilmour got hurt, Clark faded away, Domi made a dunb move....the list goes on. Always had one of the highest payrolls and it was fun to watch hockey in Toronto. Who cares now about Brad Boyes...who cares about Rask, so far he had one good year but beyond that who is in goal now? We have a good goalie in Reimer and some other young guys so who cares. When he got Toskala he was actually playing pretty good. Even Fletcher agreed that Toskala was a good goaler and impressed him. Problems started when Wilson came in and him and Toskala didn't see eye to eye...it happens. If Chicago beats the Canucks this year in game 7 people would be calling Luongo the biggest fraud ever. It's all a matter of perspective. Hate to say it but it is true. Rask, Couture, Boyes, Steen does not win us the cup. They are just nhl players, not players that win a cup so we really didn't loose anything. You want to cry, cry about how Ballard sent REALLY GOOD hockey players out the door in his era that won cups elsewhere.
 

DoubleDose86

Registered User
Nov 23, 2010
475
9
Toronto
Might pick it up just for the sake of hearing someone else's opinions. But you always have to take everything with a grain of salt, remember this is still their ideas. and opinions.
 

mulebreath

Registered User
Jan 24, 2011
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For a bunch of you who cares what they traded away at the trade deadline to make a push. They were a player away or two for many years but unfortunately had some bad luck. Nolan got hurt, Gilmour got hurt, Clark faded away, Domi made a dunb move....the list goes on. Always had one of the highest payrolls and it was fun to watch hockey in Toronto. Who cares now about Brad Boyes...who cares about Rask, so far he had one good year but beyond that who is in goal now? We have a good goalie in Reimer and some other young guys so who cares. When he got Toskala he was actually playing pretty good. Even Fletcher agreed that Toskala was a good goaler and impressed him. Problems started when Wilson came in and him and Toskala didn't see eye to eye...it happens. If Chicago beats the Canucks this year in game 7 people would be calling Luongo the biggest fraud ever. It's all a matter of perspective. Hate to say it but it is true. Rask, Couture, Boyes, Steen does not win us the cup. They are just nhl players, not players that win a cup so we really didn't loose anything. You want to cry, cry about how Ballard sent REALLY GOOD hockey players out the door in his era that won cups elsewhere.

Pre-lockout was a different era, as Fletcher put so well ("draft schmaft"), the Leafs were in a much greater position than most teams to throw money at free agents, obviously a huge factor in the decision to throw draft picks at rentals.
 

JackBurton

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Jun 30, 2010
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Why must you be such a dick about things? There's no need to get so personal and scathing in your replies. The Bill O'Reilly approach of shouting down your opponents rarely leads to civilized discussion.

My entire point was that we went into the lockout with a bare prospect cupboard because of Quinn's rental moves. It was only a matter of time for the bubble to burst on this team's ability to compete, as our core was gradually aging and becoming less effective. Quinn failed to foresee this inevitability.

Quinn's moves at the trade deadline stripped away the future from this club. The Nolan trade has been viewed by many as one of the worst in our history. We lost our first round pick in the 2003 draft, quite possibly the deepest 1st round in NHL history, and Brad Boyes, whose 26 goals in the first year post-lockout could have really helped us get those measly two points that escaped us in our playoff hunt that year. Meanwhile, Nolan chipped in two assists in a 7-game first round loss to the Flyers in 2003. Fantastic dividends on that trade!

You evaluate trades years down the road, and the Nolan deal brought us no closer to the cup. Much like how Chiarelli in Boston is getting crucified for the Kaberle trade, Quinn's moves did not pan out in his favour. The only difference here is that the Bruins had the prospect depth to be able to make such a move, a luxury the Leafs did not have at the time. And it hurt us for years down the road.

Yes, looking back now the deals look bad, but that didn't matter at the time. The Leafs had no use for prospects and picks then. They were legitimately only a player or two away from a cup. Those are the times you spend every asset you have that isn't making an impact RIGHT NOW in order to win. Quinn did that. It didn't work out.

And nobody knew the 2003 draft would be what it ended up as. Come on. It was another draft. Another crop of unproven players that could amount to absolutely nothing. The Leafs had a chance to win the cup and they took it.

It's better than sitting here now saying "I wonder what could've happened if they had just made a trade..."
 

Duke Silver

Truce?
Jun 4, 2008
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Yes, looking back now the deals look bad, but that didn't matter at the time. The Leafs had no use for prospects and picks then. They were legitimately only a player or two away from a cup. Those are the times you spend every asset you have that isn't making an impact RIGHT NOW in order to win. Quinn did that. It didn't work out.

And nobody knew the 2003 draft would be what it ended up as. Come on. It was another draft. Another crop of unproven players that could amount to absolutely nothing. The Leafs had a chance to win the cup and they took it.

It's better than sitting here now saying "I wonder what could've happened if they had just made a trade..."

Quinn gets points for effort. But my point still stands: His moves set us back for the future. Justify them all you want but they are still one reason that we took a step back after the lockout.

Teams have a good idea of how deep an upcoming draft is. A 10-second Google search turned up this article about how deep it was expected to be, including this quote from then-Assistant GM of Minnesota Tim Thompson:

"Last year [2002], we were picking eighth and our elite group of players was seven guys. This year [2003], we're picking 20th and we have 23 people in our elite group."
 

paulster2626

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Oct 11, 2008
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I read it, and although I hate Strachan I did like the book. Once you sift through all the anti-Leaf B.S., it's not bad.

He did point out that although there is a salary cap, the Leafs still had a chance to out-spend their opponents with coaching, front-office staff, training facilities, and scouting - but they refused for some reason. Well now guess what we're seeing happen - and for the first time in a long time, I hear casual fans tell me that they think the team is headed in the right direction.
 

Dylbot

Registered User
Sep 10, 2009
1,962
28
Sounds like things sucked. However, Burke has complete autonomy and the organization has been moving in the right direction for the past two years.

It would be interesting to see some stats as to how much teams spend on non-player staff. The Leafs now have like 4 GMs!!! lol

23 scouts on the payroll. wow.

http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=42119

Compare that to the second richest team in the NHL, Les Canadiens, who only employ 12 scouts and have a much smaller front office as well.

http://www.gohabs.com/staff.htm
 
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Vexed

Magic Marner
Feb 4, 2011
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You trade away futures for veterans when you are close to winning a cup. That's not just Quinn, that's every GM imaginable. It is what you do. This argument is terrible. The only bad thing about Quinn's moves is that it didn't land us a cup not that it moved future players, that's just ridiculous.

That is what you do when your team is finishing in or around the top 5 all the time.

The only problem we had post-lockout was our NTC's. That is truly the end all-be all of it. We could not move vet's to contenders therefore the cycle was broken.
 

Dylbot

Registered User
Sep 10, 2009
1,962
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You trade away futures for veterans when you are close to winning a cup. That's not just Quinn, that's every GM imaginable. It is what you do. This argument is terrible. The only bad thing about Quinn's moves is that it didn't land us a cup not that it moved future players, that's just ridiculous.

That is what you do when your team is finishing in or around the top 5 all the time.

The only problem we had post-lockout was our NTC's. That is truly the end all-be all of it. We could not move vet's to contenders therefore the cycle was broken.
It was JFJ that handed all those NTC's out and he at no time attempted to deal vets for futures.

It was his era that ruined the franchise, whether it was really his fault or not.
 

hockeyfanz*

Guest
You trade away futures for veterans when you are close to winning a cup. That's not just Quinn, that's every GM imaginable. It is what you do. This argument is terrible. The only bad thing about Quinn's moves is that it didn't land us a cup not that it moved future players, that's just ridiculous.

That is what you do when your team is finishing in or around the top 5 all the time.

The only problem we had post-lockout was our NTC's. That is truly the end all-be all of it. We could not move vet's to contenders therefore the cycle was broken.


Smart Post...someone who gets it....don't ever compare a GM who is a cup contender trading first round picks at the deadline to a GM who trades first round picks before the season starts...its not the same thing at all...Quinn was a top 5 team for consecutive seasons..what was he supposed to do? Stand Pat because the future draft looked good and forget about the goal at hand (to win the Stanley Cup?) You are right Vexxed...its a ridiculous argument. Do fans even know what the job of a GM is?

He tried to get the team over the hump and win a Cup. He traded 20-something picks......He went to the Conference Finals in consecutive seasons after posting consecutive 100pt seasons.

And some fans are pissed that he traded Brad Boyes? Is this some kind of a joke?

I'd bring back Pat Quinn in a heartbeat and let Ron Wilson shine his shoes.
 

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
For a bunch of you who cares what they traded away at the trade deadline to make a push. They were a player away or two for many years but unfortunately had some bad luck. Nolan got hurt, Gilmour got hurt, Clark faded away, Domi made a dunb move....the list goes on. Always had one of the highest payrolls and it was fun to watch hockey in Toronto. Who cares now about Brad Boyes...who cares about Rask, so far he had one good year but beyond that who is in goal now? We have a good goalie in Reimer and some other young guys so who cares. When he got Toskala he was actually playing pretty good. Even Fletcher agreed that Toskala was a good goaler and impressed him. Problems started when Wilson came in and him and Toskala didn't see eye to eye...it happens. If Chicago beats the Canucks this year in game 7 people would be calling Luongo the biggest fraud ever. It's all a matter of perspective. Hate to say it but it is true. Rask, Couture, Boyes, Steen does not win us the cup. They are just nhl players, not players that win a cup so we really didn't loose anything. You want to cry, cry about how Ballard sent REALLY GOOD hockey players out the door in his era that won cups elsewhere.

That was so disheartening. My favourite player came back, I thought he would be perfect for a 3rd line centre at that point, and his first shift, blam, he's out. Forever. It was just, horrible.

I saw some celebrity game at the ACC years afterward.. Dougie was playing in it, but he only played about half the game, and you could tell he was having trouble skating.
 

themightyquinn

Registered User
Jun 10, 2007
580
13
Toronto
I have it and it's actually a very good book.

Not for the pro-Leaf/anti-Leaf stances...but for the details of how the one constant of this failing franchise has been ownership putting profits before winning including the last 3 owners.

1) Ballard - White nameplates on the old white uniforms so fans had to continue to purchase programs.

2) Stavro - We don't need Gretzky even though he wants to come home and is willing to take a massive pay cut because he "won't sell one ticket in the building" (because they're always sold out anyway).

3) MLSE - Despite leading the league in revenue, profit and introducing Personal Seat Licenses to the NHL...not once did they ever lead the league in payroll in the non-cap era. In fact they were never in the Top 3. They were rarely in the Top 5 (usually 6th) with one exception when they were 4th. They spent enough to gain an advantage on the rest of the league but never really did "what it takes" to win financially. When their financial advantage went away in the new hard salary cap era, so did their playoff spot. It's no coincidence that they haven't set foot in the playoffs since the cap era began.

These ownership issues alone do not make the Leafs a bad team (poor GM's, coaches and players contribute significantly more) but ownership is certainly a contributing factor in their lack of success.

A very good read for $10 bucks.
 

Warden of the North

Ned Stark's head
Apr 28, 2006
46,263
21,456
Muskoka
Quinn was a major reason why this team has been so awful for so long. Not as big a reason as JFJ and his moves, but he left JFJ with a very bare cupboard of prospects because of his propensity to trade good young players for aging veterans.

Quinn was GM in a different era. He didnt have to deal with a salary cap and the absolute reliance on young cheap talent that brings.

Look at JFJ first season befoe the lockout, he didnt hold up at all with the old mentality. JFJ, whether by his own ideas or as a puppet for MLSE, screwed us.
 

dimi78

Registered User
Aug 9, 2008
4,348
294
Agreed.

I dont understand how people can diss the most successful GM/Coach the team has seen since 67 (the Fletcher/Burns era was also a great team)...People ***** about Quinn trading number one picks AT THE DEADLINE knowing full well that the picks would be low first rounders. And to acquire top notch talent..I remember when he acquired Brian Leetch...the buzz in this town was remarkable (NOBODY was criticizing him then) and when he acquired Owen Nolan (it was a stroke of genius at the time)...we know now both guys didn't really pan out...Quinn had great veteran laden teams with multiple 100 point seasons, two Conference finals and one loss came to the eventual cup champs...

Quinn was great with the fans, media and his players...Quinn only missed the playoffs one year (the year he was fired)...Pat Quinn was a classy smart hockey man....I don't know where fans get off saying he left the team in a mess.

Very easy my freind. Quinn 1st year in this organization he was just the coach with Mike Smith as GM and it was Mike Smith who put together a young team that made it to the conference final that lost to Buffalo. Since that time and Mike Smith stepping down as GM because of his wife's illness to cancer Quinn went and gutted what was a young team into an over the hill team that lacked any kind of youthful legs to have long playoff runs.

Moves like Modin who went on to be an allstar PF with Tampa for Corey Cross, putting Steve Sullivan on wavers to sign Kristich when Boston walked away from his arb. win boy were they ever right to walk away and Steve Sullivan would have been a nice piece don't you think after all he only average almost the same point a game average as Sundin once he left T.O. Trading a young shut down D man in Jason Smyth for nothing at all but no problem Dave Manson Belak were great on D, trading what was 1 half of a damn good shut down pair in Markov and Berzin for Reichel and Renburgh, treating the farm system with a complete neglect where it was known as a prospect graveyard and of course the great injury prone Owen Nolan trade.

Quinn did a piss poor job as GM of this team the only reason why his teams made the playoffs was because of 2 names Curtis Joseph and Ed Belfour. Just think with the great goaltending the Leafs had in the Quinn era if they stayed course with that young team that made it to the conference final what the team would have done instead of watching the over the hill gang play injured in the playoffs all those years that went nowhere because they were TOO OLD and TOO BANGED UP.

Not only was Quinn the reason why the Leafs weren't good enough to win the cup in his era as GM he's the reason why after the lock out the team has been 1 big mess.
 

Spman48

Registered User
May 24, 2011
33
0
Funny thing is the weakest part of the Leafs was goaltender, and even Burke hasn't addressed that.

How has Burke not addressed it? He tried bringing in - at the time - the best goaltender outside of the NHL as well as signing half a dozen goalie free agents from NCAA and Europe, traded to try and get a better goal tender in Giguere and with that has provided more goalie depth in our system then we've had in years.

It's not that he hasn't addressed it, it's that his attempts haven't worked out. That happens sometimes. Not everything can be a home run. The depth in goal is much better now and no, we might have crap luck and have no one in the system turn into the franchise tender, but reimer, scrivens and rynnas have looked great in the system and hell even Gus might be able to turn it around.
 
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